mproost

Hello everyone-

My 2009 LX-S(145k) suddenly developed a serious electrical issue. I was driving at slow speeds and the CEL light and battery light turned on and the car died. It restarted, the dash lights stayed on and i took it to a nearby auto parts store to check the codes and it threw the following codes:
P0562 - System Voltage low
P16BC - Generator connector disconnected
P1298 - Electric load detector circuit - high input
I had the store attempt the in car alternator testing. They said the car had a "parasite draw" so bad they could not test the alternator and that I needed to "replace all my wiring, starting with all the wiring between the alternator and the battery".That did not seem accurate... I had to jump the car to get it re started and on the way home more lights came on the dash, the radio stopped, and eventually the car went completely dark and died. I bought a new battery and limped it home with no issues, but the battery is not re-charging. I visually checked all electrical connections I could find any that look bad.

Any ideas of what could be the issue and what to check next would be much appreciated.

Thank you!

CraigW

iTrader: (1)

Own, or have access to a DMM ?? Digital Multi Meter.

It could tell you if charging, & could tell amperage draw while off.

mproost

CraigW

iTrader: (1)

Voltage test is simple Black to good grounding point, And Red read at battery positive while engine running. Look for Voltages of over 12V. They will be all over the place due to ELD set up Honda uses.

Draw amperage is read THROUGH the meter, in one lead back out the other lead. (Amperage may use special sockets on meter)

mproost

So, here is what I found:

Battery voltage car off: 12.68
Battery voltage car running (no accessories on): 12.06 - Bad alternator?

Draw amperage(car off) bounces around from 0.42-0.71 - Not an issue correct?

negative side voltage drop and saw 0.00 or 0.01 at alternator case, alternator mounting bracket, engine block and and ground to frame below battery. Does this make sense or am I just not making good contact somewhere?
positive side voltage drop: 0.04 at all connections on alternator.

Am I safe to assume its just the alternator and I can pull it?

Thanks in advance!

CraigW

iTrader: (1)

How long did it run for voltage test ? Did it ever rise above 12.06.

.42 & .71 seems a bit high for a draw (may not have gone into low power / sleep mode.)

ezone

No. Right now all you know is the alternator isn't charging, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's bad. Yet.

What if you buy an alternator from a parts store and you find out the problem isn't fixed? Now you own a low quality replacement alternator. But if it solves the problem you're golden.....but with a low quality part.

I'd do wiring testing first according to the FSM, then decide if the alternator is actually bad.
Blown fuse anywhere?
Rodent ate some wires? Rodents LOVE to eat wires!


That alternator is right on top in front of God and everybody. Pull the alternator off and carry it into Danger Zone (or any other local parts store that can test your parts), have them bench test it to see if it's actually bad.
If it's bad, you know what to do.
If it's deemed good, the problem must still be in the car.

mproost

I'm taking the alternator in to be tested. If its bad I think I'll have it rebuilt locally.

mproost

Thanks for the replies. Had the alternator tested. It was not producing the required voltage and they said it failed. So, I purchased a reman unit(I know, not as good as OE, but budget is an issue). Installed it, and it is still not charging. So, going to attempt to follow FSM troubleshooting. I am using this manual to troubleshoot. I have a pdf of it, but this seems easier to use.
2006-2009 Civic searchable repair manual

Following this, I got to number 6 on the Charging System Indicator Circuit Troubleshooting page. Basically, after I unplugged the 4P connector the charging system indicator light turned off. It says to replace the alternator?? I do not believe this is the case, so I am checking/cleaning all connections again and starting over with alternator troubleshooting.

Let me know if you any ideas on places to start. I do not have an HDS so some of the stuff in the manual is not possible for me to do.

On a side note, this car has some damage to the radiator support, the front clip/bumper cover, and an ac leak that would be costly to fix. But, the car ran beautifully until this issue and I want to keep driving it as long as possible. Unfortunately, spending hundreds(thousand?) to have Honda diagnose/repair does not make sense based on the value of the car.

Colin42

return the reman and get a used one from the junkyard, aftermarket parts store alternators usually dont play nice with these cars

ezone

You already checked for 12v+ on the correct wire in the 4 wire plug, and it was present with the ignition turned on?


Charge warning light stayed on with the engine running?
WHILE ENGINE IS RUNNING: you unplugged the 4 wire connector from the alternator and the warning light then turned off? (again, this must be checked with engine running)
Bad alternator. (voltage regulator is unable to control the warning light circuit correctly. Not an uncommon issue with remans and aftermarket units)

mproost

Thanks again ezone!!

Yes, I did this while running and the light turned off. Does this mean the alternator is bad for certain or could something else still be to blame?

Before, I pull this thing again to get it tested. I would like to eliminate as many other possible causes I can on my own. I will continue to check what I can from the FSM. Any other ideas would be appreciated

I hadn't yet, because that is further down in the troubleshooting and hadn't gotten to it yet. With ignition on and car not running, I got 12.02 volts between pin 2 on 4P connector and battery +, voltage at battery is 12.04. Same test with car running netted 11.48 between pin 2 and battery + and 11.50 at battery. Battery is brand new, just put it back on my little 8 amp charger. so, yes I guess I am getting 12+ at pin 2, but also have .02 voltage drop

The next step in the troubleshooting is this:11.Jump the SCS line with the HDS, then turn the ignition switch OFF.
NOTE: This step must be done to protect the engine control module (ECM)/powertrain control module (PCM) from damage.12.Disconnect ECM/PCM connector B (44P).13.Check for continuity between ECM/PCM connector terminal B41 and alternator 4P connector terminal No. 2.
Is there a way to do step 11 without an HDS? I certainly can do step 12 and 13 but do not want to damage anything.

mproost

Thats a good idea! Unfortunately, junkyards are not close to me and they are a pain to deal with. How do I know I will get a good one? i.e. good for more than a couple thousand miles before it dies, which has been my experience in the past with used parts.

Colin42

well if you're pulling it yourself you find the car with the lowest mileage, most junkyards will give you a limited warranty.
or check buy and sell pages for someone parting out a car

mproost

UPDATE: replaced alternator with a used one. Car started up, battery light stayed off!! Then 15 mins into test drive Alternator fuse #3(10A in the car fuse box) blew! Ran through alternator testing FSM and it tested 14.4-14.5 volts. Which seems high to me, but is in spec according to the FSM. I do not have an ammeter to test amperage

Thought it might have just been a bad fuse, so replaced it with one a known good one and ran a few errands close to home and about 15 mins in the fuse blew while pulling into the auto parts store to buy more fuses. Then I blew 2 more on the 8 min drive home. All the tests I can do without an HDS say its all good. Any ideas of where to go from here would be appreciated?

ezone

There's several other components that share that fuse.
Get a good wiring diagram

ezone

These items all share #3 fuse:
Alternator,
ELD sensor
MAF/IAT sensor
EVAP purge solenoid
secondary O2 sensor
brake pedal switch

Plus wiring to all these items

mproost

Thanks! I will check all of those starting with the secondary o2 sensor and ELD. sensor. For no other reason than my car has thrown codes for those items previously, Thanks again!

ezone

Codes can be set for any of the items monitored by the PCM simply because the fuse is (or was) blown.
ELD is not a common failure item IMO, so I would expect it coded when the fuse blew.

O2 sensor would code when the fuse blew.....but did it also set codes while fuse was still good?

mproost

Yes, with a good fuse it set the codes P0141 "oxygen sensor heater circuit bank 1 Sensor 2 and P0102 "Mass or volume air flow A Circuit low input." and the CEL is staying on. The CEL was not on before this issue. How long do the codes hang around for? I've blew the fuse three times yesterday, but read the codes with a good fuse installed.

Thanks!

ezone

You have a code reader, surely it will also erase the codes.

mproost

I do not have one, I am using the local parts store's reader.

Colin42

spend $20 and get a Bluetooth dongle and an app

ezone

Surely it will erase codes.

mproost

I just ordered one. waiting for it to arrive.

Colin42

perfect, they're super handy

mproost

Thanks everyone for the help! SO, I pretty certain it is the secondary oxygen sensor blowing the fuse. Ran through the troubleshooting in FSM and the circuit wiring tested fine. Unplugged the o2 sensor and took her for a 30 minute test drive and it did not blow the fuse. Going to pull the sensor next and test it.

What is OEM manufacturer of Honda 02 sensor? Can I just order the Denso or NGK? or is the actual Honda one different?

Colin42

wire wheel the sensor and see what is stamped there

ezone

If you get down to scraping rust to see the brand on the sensor, NGK sensors are labeled NTK


Both companies supply the sensors to Honda.
You'll have to see which brand your sensor is (I sure don't remember minutae like this LOL), however, the secondary sensor is a plain O2 sensor so IMO either brand would be okay.


I would not want to install other cheaper brands though, I'd stick with true NTK or Denso.
If it were the primary sensor (AF sensor) I prefer the original brand.

mproost