Buckeye

2012 Honda Civil LX, Automatic 1.8L, 156K, no performance mods
Symptoms: I’ve noticed a loss of power on acceleration and a ‘bogging down’ in general performance.When driving at 45-65, and I lift my foot off the accelerator, then resume acceleration, there is a jerk/shudder or two before the car resumes normal driving/acceleration. This happen all the time.

Maintenance performed: All routine service performed by Honda (except: brakes / tires / air & cabin filters / spark plugs)

Thoughts: Fuels filters need replaced?Plug wires need replaced? Catalytic converter? O2 sensor? Other ideas?

Wankenstein

Possibly a worn or broken motor mount.

Buckeye

Thanks...I'll add that to list of items to check.

ezone

Shudder?


How frequently has the trans fluid been serviced with Hondas fluid?

Buckeye

I guess the best way to describe the 'shudder' would be a quick double-jerk back & forth motion x2.
All hte service has been done at Honda per the maintenance schedule.

ezone

Have your Honda dealer people test drive it and evaluate the trans issues.

You may need to demonstrate your complaints to the tech on a test drive so everyone knows what the problem is.

Buckeye

I figured that would be involved, but I wanted to narrow down the possible causes prior.

ezone

Got any fault codes?

CraigW

iTrader: (1)

65K is too long an interval.... 30K is more realistic.

You have COP, no plug wires.

Buckeye

ezone...no fault codes.

CraigW...COP?

CraigW

iTrader: (1)

Coil On Plug

Buckeye

Worn right engine mount is the diagnosis. Part ordered and will be replaced upon arrival. I'll follow up if the mount does not resolve the issue. Thank you to all who provided thier input to the issue.

CraigW

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for update !!!

Buckeye

So the right engine mount arrived and was installed without issue. Straight forward install (5 bolts & 2 nuts)...and Honda waned $600 for what took me 30 minutes. Anyways...The shutter has been reduced a great deal but not completely. My thoughts is either the torque rod or transmission mount(s) also need replaced. Thoughts?

Wankenstein

Once, one mount fails others may soon follow so wouldn't be surprising if the transmission mount may be an issue. Have you perfromed another mounts test since replacment along with a thorough visual inspection?

Buckeye

Not as of yet. I figured with 156K miles and with one worn out, it would hurt to replace all of the mounts. The overall cost isn't bad so I will replace them (transmission mount & lower torque mount) and let you know the outcome.

Wankenstein

Buckeye

So having replaced the engine mount I went to get a quote to have the transmission mount replaced (its finally winter in Northern VA and I have no garage). In talking with the tech, he suggested we see if there are any 'soft codes' as he didn't think the transmission mount was the issue. He pulled 2 codes (1 general and 1 Honda specific):
General Code: P0497
1. EVAP Small Purge Flow
2. EVAP System Low Purge Flow Detexcted
Honda Specific: P145C
EVAP System Purge Flow Malfunction

So, as of now, I have a replacement EVAP Purge Valve ordered and will report back once it's replaced.

maverickfhs

I see you are in Northern Virginia, just like me and has been brutally cold to work on the car. Sorry, I digress - if you are talking about the transmission mount present right in front of engine oil pan, then usually you can test it out.

I pulled mine out(thanks to EZ) last year while had 191K miles and it was in great condition, worth checking it out before you throw your money on a new part - of course, your call

OEM is ~$40-$50, used OEM can be a good alternate option. Curious about 2 things, how many miles ago did you replace ATF fluid? Any idea how many miles ago air filter was replaced and if it's OEM?

Buckeye

Maverickfhs,
The weather here sucks for working on cars without a garage. I have the parts and if they ever indicate needing replaced, I'll do the job. Hopefully with sunshine and singing birds versus snowflakes and icicle's..., but I too digress.
As for the ATF fluid, it was done recently. As I stated earlier, all maintenance is on the Honda schedule, so the ATF was changed at X miles. As for the air filter, I replaced the OEM with a K&N shortly after getting the car. Been using them for years and love them. Just to be sure, I pulled it when replacing the emissions purge valve, and it was clear of debris.

So an update: after replacing the emissions canister purge valve, the problem has subsided greatly, but is still present. Instead of being hard jerks & shudders, it's more of a hic-cup. I'm going to go back to the shop and have them pull any codes that may be present. Thoughts?

Wankenstein

Has the o2 sensor ever been replaced (with OEM Denso/NTK)?
Any change in mpg's since shudder issue?
Is there an external fuel fiter?..if so, last time replaced?

Is spark quality up to par?
Almost sounds like a cylinder misfire that's not throwing a code. Try performing a power-balance (rpm drop) test.

Buckeye

The O2 sensor has not been replaced.
After replace the valve, the MPG was down, but this morning after filling-up, they jumped back to where they were prior.
Not sure about external filter...so I'd say no.
Haven't pulled a plug to check.
How do you perform a power-balance (rpm drop) test?

Wankenstein

As shown in video except lift coil's instead of removing harness. Lifting coils let you hear spark as well. After you do a drop test by lifting coils..replace all coils and remove fuel injector harness one at a time and listen for rpm's to drop.

Buckeye

Thanks Mega...I'll give a test when my fingers won't freeze in the process.

ezone

Buy your own code reader or scanner app!
Google 'torque pro app'

You're gonna cause misfire fault codes by doing this.

Power balance test is manually hunting for a cylinder with little or no contribution. If the engine had a weak or dead cylinder you would have a flashing CEL with corresponding misfire codes, usually along with a low power problem.

Buckeye

The power balance test proved negative and there were no additional codes.

Wankenstein

Did you perform it by disconnecting injector harness also?

Going back to your original post:
"Symptoms: I’ve noticed a loss of power on acceleration and a ‘bogging down’ in general performance.When driving at 45-65, and I lift my foot off the accelerator, then resume acceleration, there is a jerk/shudder or two before the car resumes normal driving/acceleration."

After motor mounts and evap system was solved are you still feeling loss of power on acceleration and decreased performance?

This toque conversion lock-up shudder read may or may not be related: http://www.agcoauto.com/content/news/p2_articleid/203

Buckeye

Mega,
After making the repairs, the acceleration and the bogging down seems improved. When I filled the tank on Friday, the display milage indicated 40mpg, which has happened. However, I normally average 32-34mpg. After normal driving over the weekend (both surface & highway), I'm averaging <30mpg, which is odd.
I checked the ATF fluid and it seems a bit dark, so I'm thinking of getting it changed. I think this is in line with the link you provided. The article describes what I'm experiencing.
Thoughts?

Wankenstein

Ezone mentioned in reply #4 ATF change interval. Has ATF been replaced previously and if so how many miles ago? If it's been more than 30k miles ago it would be good to do a 3x3 drain and fill and an external filter replacement (if it has one). If an ATF change doesn't solve the issue you may want to (at your discretion) add this product: Make sure it's compatible with your transmission.

Buckeye

The latest updates: About 1 week ago, I had Honda change the ATF fluid. When I asked the service tech about doing a 3x Drain & Fill, she said they don't do that. So, they drained what they could and refilled. The symptoms are still there. So, with warmer weather in Virginia and the government shutdown, I will be doing the 3x Drain & Fill in the hopes it resolves the issue.

My questions...between each Drain & Fill, is there a set mileage needed to be driven to optimize getting rid of the old fluid? Or is there something specific that I need to do?