torontob

Hi everyone,

I own a Honda Civic 2009 DX-G which has been running great for the past two years. It has 90,000KM on it right now. I have always changed engine oil on time as I do drive it a lot.

In the past few months from time to time a really bad thing keeps happening to the car. If I drive it for a while and then park the car, turn it off, get out of the car and try to lock the doors with remote key it won't lock. So, I would go back to the car and try to turn it ON only to notice there is no lights and the car won't start. I then realize the I can't lock the car even from inside because it looks as if the car has a depleted battery. I try to boost the car and it won't have any effect at all. However, I wait 5 mins, 30 mins, or 60 mins and then all a sudden the car gains the electricity power again. Doors lock fine. Car starts fine and turns off and starts on again. I doubt it's anything mechanical. It's most likely all electrical. It's not spark plugs because there is simply no electric power. I don't know much about cars but I think it's something to do with the cables between the battery and the rest of the car.

So, the problem is that the car looses electricity all over the car. I can't walk away from the car because it won't lock. I can't turn it on either. I can't turn on the radio, I can't turn on the lights. The dashboard doesn't light up at all. There is absolutely no sign of electricity.

This had left me stranded over 10 times now in downtown where I have to wait until the car locks so I can walk away from it.

2 months ago I took it to dealer and they told me they can do a diagnostic but they might not be able to tell what is wrong since it's not happening that moment. So, I left the dealer and now it has back again.

This morning it happened again and I called a tow truck. It was towed to dealer and the dealer called telling me the car turns ON just fine and there are no engine error lights on it. They tell me that even if they run a diagnostic they might not be able to tell the problem and still charge me for it or might need many many hours of diagnostics charging me at $102/hour to find out the issue. What kind of crap is that? (excuse the language).

First, I was disappointed but now I am getting pissed off. There is gotta be some way to tell where the problem is or to replicate it. I can't do that because I haven't notice any specific pattern to it.

Has anyone heard of any issue like there here? What can I look for to diagnose the issue myself? I am not familiar with car electric system but I am an avid computer programmer and troubleshooter and know systematic methods of finding problem so I can work my way if someone can guide me.

P.S. Two months ago, I also had engine error light ON when the issue was happening for few days (intermittently) and by the time I took it to dealer it was gone and they said, "Ops we can't diagnose if the engine light is not there; come back please" - I am afraid this is their way of trying to expire my power train warranty? Or maybe they know of this issue being wide-spread? So are there any bulletins to this that you may know?

I greatly appreciate your feedback.

Thanks,
Bruce

CraigW

iTrader: (1)

The next time it fails leave the door open and watch the dome light as you gently but firmly move the battery cables, grab the wire a bit back from the terminal and give a twist and a tug.

Keep a close eye on the dome and map lights if you have them & see if they pop on or flicker on/off when moving the wires around.

Inspect the battery terminals for corrosion.

torontob

Thanks a lot for the feedback.

My battery pH level is all good and it was tested fine at last oil check as well. In addition, I wiggled the terminal cables over and over and the car won't start or any of the dashboard lights. It turned ON after like 45 mins with me leaving it to cool down.

Last time this was happening (multiple times during few days), I noticed that when I am driving as I change my front lights from dim to FULL the car looses electricity. I knew it looses electricity because the dashboard would go off (the car still rolled and I think engine was ON) and the audio deck would ask me for PIN (an indication of power to battery was lost). It was like a blink of an eye lose of power.

Now, based on my primitive knowledge of cars electrics, wouldn't this be a problem that has nothing to do with the battery? because, when the car is on the move it doesn't draw power from the battery but rather from the alternator?

However, I think even with above incidence there could be a short inside the battery that is causing this?

***My brother once had connected wrong poles when trying to boost the car and blew out a fuse or two which was replaced. But that was like 15 months ago.

lazlong

Check for bad grounds and have the battery and alternator checked. You can also have it scanned for codes at Autozone for free.

Kinda sounds like the ECM/PCM isn't grounding correctly. Do those things first and we can go from there.

torontob

Thanks lazlong.

1- How do I check for ground? Never done it before.
2- How to check alternator? car running or not? and where to check on alternator?

P.S. I am in Canada so no AutoZone here. Everyone else charges an arm and a leg for such primitive checks. Though, I don't mind learning this stuff and am actually happy to do so.

Thanks

iSharix

Art thou in Toronto?

lazlong

1: You're looking for bad ground wires (loose or corroded). Usually the first one to go is the ground strap from the engine to the radiator support, you can't miss it.

2: Using a multi-meter is fundamental to diagnosis. Step 1 is to get a multi-meter. Step 2 is to read and understand the instructions with said multi-meter. Step 3 is to measure voltage output at the output terminal while the car is running. I can't tell you or show you a pic 'cause I don't know your model year and I don't own one (I have a 2001). You could take a pic and we could tell ya which one it is.

PS: Call around and find the cheapest price. Usually the kwik lube place will run the codes for the cheapest price. Or you could buy your own diagnostic tool (code reader). I would recommend one with data read ability (able to read and/or activate the sensors in realtime).

You can answer just about every question you have on doing diagnostics with a youtube search (ericthecarguy has the best vids). I would also highly recommend a service manual: http://www.helminc.com/helm/homepage.asp?Style=helm and a general automotive book at the bookstore so you have a better understanding of the general principals. It's that or an automotive class.

torontob

I shall try what you noted lazlong and revert back here. Thanks

iSharix: I am indeed in Toronto.

CraigW

iTrader: (1)

Is your warranty up ??

torontob

It's at 90,000KM so I guess yes. I didn't buy extended warranty. They still charge their many hours of diagnostics at $102/hr even with warranty there and no refund if they can't find anything.

torontob

Grabbed my car from Honda yesterday after they told me it could be the battery as it's at 350ccal. Paid them $115 and took the car home. They also did an AVR test and apparently it passed.

Today the engine light came ON and I quikcly bought an OBD 2 reader. Just connected it and here is what I get:

P0685
ECM/PCM Power Relay Control Circuit/Open

P.S. Dealer also said I have to clean corroded terminal cables and ground cables. Can someone please tell me where the ground cables are? They told me there is like 5 locations. Also, when I clean them do I need to grease them after?

Thanks

torontob

Cleaned the terminals and used sand-paper on batter diodes and the terminal cables. I also found the engine to chassis ground cable when I took out the battery. I clean the end of it that goes to engine as it was hand reachable. The other end I couldn't open with the tool I had - hard to reach.

I didn't have grease to apply to battery terminals - would that be a problem in the harsh winter coming up?

Here are some pics of under the hood. I want to know where the other ground cables are so I can clean them.

Also, if you can please point me to the spark plugs so I can clean them as well. I think they will be due soon or maybe are rusty.

I am attached three pictures taken from under the hood from driver side to passenger side in hopes to find all the ground cables. Engine to chassis and battery to chassis is already cleaned. Where are the other 3?






Cleaned and sand-paper terminal on battery:


(-) Terminal cable ending to chassis was very corroded - this is what it looks like at the end - if it's under warranty can I just drop by and ask for free cables?:


This is the engine to chassis cable - Only cleaned engine side with a cloth. The body of this cable seems corroded as well but it passed a continuity test from engine all the way to the battery (-) terminal:


Why do these lights flash on the OBD2 reader? check following two pics. The second pic shows the indicators that flash ON and OFF:



Why does the yellow light stays on OBD stays ON when car is turned ON? The green light is ON when car is OFF:



Why does engine light stays ON when key is in ON position but engine is not ignited? The engine light goes off once car engine is started. Is this normal?


Engine Fully turned on - no errors whatsoever and the old error code is not showing either. It seems that the error codes do not get stored in car once problems are solved. I didn't try to delete the error code from OBD. I just cleaned it and now I can't retrieve the error history again. I thought this would be in the history at least.


Thanks again


Thanks a lot guys. You been very very helpful.

lazlong

You should have a ground in the front passenger corner by the accessories and coming of the throttlebody. Throttlebody is what the air intake hose is connected to.

Spark plugs are under the coils which are here:

Disconnect the connector, take off the little nut, pull the coil out, then unscrew the plug. You'll need a 6 inch extension for your ratchet.

Warning lights coming on then going off a couple seconds later is normal. It's a self check feature. Anytime it doesn't do that or a light stays on you know something is wrong. The needle on the tach should also sweep at the same time.

Have no idea about the lights on the diagnostic tool, sorry.

torontob

Thank you very much lazlong. I like it how you guys are well informed here. Everyone pretty much pointed to the corrosion on ground cables while the Honda Techs wouldn't or couldn't tell me that on first visit.

So, the spark plugs should be cleaned once every 6 months or so or not? My maintainence light for spark plugs never came up. The car is 2 years old and 90,000 KM.

Thanks again,

lazlong

I don't know anybody who cleans 'em. Just replace 'em. I like NGK.

torontob

Hi everyone,

After cleaning the battery terminals and driver side ground cable from Engine to chassis the error P0685 went away for two days. Today, the error came up again. I noticed there is another ground cable from the engine to chassis on the passenger side as well which I should clean first thing tomorrow morning.

I want to know where ALL the ground cables are on this car. Can you please point me to a diagram or location of all the other ground cables? Apparently there is at least 5 of them per honda mechanic.

Thanks