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Re: What would happen if I increase compression to 12.5:1?
Originally Posted by ezone
Did you learn all about stoichiometry yet?
How much more fuel (injector) delivery do you have to have available in order to safely run E-85 without going too lean??
I said “If I could afford to convert to it, which I can’t.”, meaning that I know that I can’t just fill it up with E85 and be good to go. And yes, I did learn about stoichiometry.
It has a D16Y8 intake manifold, fuel rail, fuel injectors and throttle body. I could convert to D17 injectors with K Tuned top hats if the D17 injectors are better.
Could be more than coil packs. Spark plug gap and electrode wear have roles in spark, too
Also, compression could sound good, but could be off. First time I had a blown head gasket, only thing I noticed was intermittent misfires and coolant temp rising with a/c on at low speeds. Compression test showed something like 210-185-205-215, cylinders 1-4, respectively.
The spark plugs are less than a year old, and they are NGK iridium. I don’t think that all 4 spark plugs would fail all at the same time anyway. I will probably test fuel pressure before compression, since I believe that low fuel pressure is far more likely than the freshly rebuilt engine being suddenly damaged for no reason, causing all the cylinders to be low enough on compression to misfire.
Overheating can trash just about any engine quick.
Case in point, my dead 2002 ex coupe (RIP)
Had ARP head studs installed when I installed a turbo. Removed turbo (in 2007) and kept head studs since I don't even remember what I did with old head bolts. In 2017, during a recent head gasket change (done in october, car overheated and there was visible coolant leakage from HG), head studs stripped out the block. Could have happened with head bolts, too.
Had ARP head studs installed when I installed a turbo. Removed turbo (in 2007) and kept head studs since I don't even remember what I did with old head bolts. In 2017, during a recent head gasket change (done in october, car overheated and there was visible coolant leakage from HG), head studs stripped out the block. Could have happened with head bolts, too.
No longer driving 2002 ex coupe
Sorry to hear about the loss in the family. So you think that the head bolt holes stripped because you used studs? What did you torque the studs to?
Sorry to hear about the loss in the family. So you think that the head bolt holes stripped because you used studs? What did you torque the studs to?
I appreciate your condolences. It gave me an opportunity to add a new member of the civic forums family though, by way of my 2018 Sport Hatchback. Her name is Miyuki.
And no, studs weren't to blame. They survived a previous head gasket change from a TDC sensor bolt that decided to go full kamikaze, eating up my timing belt and subsequently bending all 16 valves. I blame overheating on decreasing the structural integrity of the aluminum block. That's what I tell myself at least. To answer your question, 2 studs stripped out the block during the first round of torquing (14 ft-lbs). After a fairly extensive but hurried search, found helicoils would work. Hunted down some for sale locally and installed em. All 10 bolts survived the first round of torque. During the second round (36 ft-lbs), however, 5 bolts failed, including one I had previously fixed. At that point, I called it quits and pronounced my car dead. 15 years and 205k seemed like a good lifespan for a car I beat the **** out of.
I don't think TTY bolts would work in an aluminum block anyways. Hardened steel stretch bolts vs aluminum block? Seems to me the block would give before the bolts stretch. I don't have experience with TTY bolts, so if I'm wrong, someone let me know. I'm just speaking from a slight understanding of materials
I appreciate that. I just think that a compression problem is nowhere near as likely as a fuel or spark problem.
Thermal expansion of metals can do a lot. Lol. Considering thousandths of an inch can have quite the effect on cylinder heads, I'd take every possible failure point into consideration. If you have the means to perform the tests yourself, I'd just do it. If not, I can see how trying to justify a 100-something dollar test from a shop can affect your decision.
Re: What would happen if I increase compression to 12.5:1?
Originally Posted by D17VTECPOWER
Isn’t E85 105 octane or something? That would certainly be enough. If I could afford to convert to it, which I can’t. Jet fuel and race fuel is not an option.
the problem with alcohol is the acidity, it will eat away seals, etc.
Also, low calorific content, need much more fuel per air.
I am from a country that at some point in time 95% of new cars were alcohol, so i should know that.
I appreciate your condolences. It gave me an opportunity to add a new member of the civic forums family though, by way of my 2018 Sport Hatchback. Her name is Miyuki.
And no, studs weren't to blame. They survived a previous head gasket change from a TDC sensor bolt that decided to go full kamikaze, eating up my timing belt and subsequently bending all 16 valves. I blame overheating on decreasing the structural integrity of the aluminum block. That's what I tell myself at least. To answer your question, 2 studs stripped out the block during the first round of torquing (14 ft-lbs). After a fairly extensive but hurried search, found helicoils would work. Hunted down some for sale locally and installed em. All 10 bolts survived the first round of torque. During the second round (36 ft-lbs), however, 5 bolts failed, including one I had previously fixed. At that point, I called it quits and pronounced my car dead. 15 years and 205k seemed like a good lifespan for a car I beat the **** out of.
I don't think TTY bolts would work in an aluminum block anyways. Hardened steel stretch bolts vs aluminum block? Seems to me the block would give before the bolts stretch. I don't have experience with TTY bolts, so if I'm wrong, someone let me know. I'm just speaking from a slight understanding of materials
or an IAC gasket seeping antifreeze into the throttle body/intake manifold areas overnight?
Think outside the box LOL
Does it lose coolant?
Originally Posted by xRiCeBoYx
Thermal expansion of metals can do a lot. Lol. Considering thousandths of an inch can have quite the effect on cylinder heads, I'd take every possible failure point into consideration. If you have the means to perform the tests yourself, I'd just do it. If not, I can see how trying to justify a 100-something dollar test from a shop can affect your decision.
I can rent a compression tester and fuel pressure tester for free at a parts store. I just plan to do the fuel pressure test first since it seems more likely to be low fuel pressure than compression to me.
Re: What would happen if I increase compression to 12.5:1?
Originally Posted by sdaidoji
the problem with alcohol is the acidity, it will eat away seals, etc.
Also, low calorific content, need much more fuel per air.
I am from a country that at some point in time 95% of new cars were alcohol, so i should know that.
You're right about low energy content and acidity. I believe that E85 can be a viable fuel though.
Piecing out parts I could swap out without making it look like I'm stripping the car down before I donate
Why not drill out the holes and tap them to a bigger size? Is the block too thin or something? You would have to drill out the holes on the head and gasket too, but I wouldn't think that that would be so hard. Small price to pay to bring her back from the dead.
I don't think TTY bolts would work in an aluminum block anyways. Hardened steel stretch bolts vs aluminum block? Seems to me the block would give before the bolts stretch.
Welcome to old technology! I think just about everything (Honda automotive) has TTY head bolts and aluminum blocks, and the rod bolts I deal with regularly are TTY also.
I don't have experience with TTY bolts, so if I'm wrong, someone let me know. I'm just speaking from a slight understanding of materials
Copied from another thread (by fsckewe) discussing the D17 engines:
During an overheat, the Al expansion tends to squash the gasket, and it can't seal properly again.
TTY (torque to yield) headbolts in an application like this can reduce the tendency to squash the gasket, since the bolts are tightened to the plastic range and they stay there. Withstands just a little more heat before damage occurs, but then the heads still warp.
This engine has ordinary head bolts.
TTY bolts are installed and tightened until they stretch (plastic range). The plastic range allows changes in length of the bolt without losing its clamping force. The stretch can keep a more constant clamping force applied to the head, so the clamping is more consistent as the head grows and shrinks.
When normal bolts are used and torqued to a spec, they limit growth movement upward (in the case of this cylinder head) to the height of the bolt heads. The clamping force increases as the head grows, and since upward movement is limited by the bolts that have no "give", the expansion forces the head against the block instead, squashing the head gasket far more than its design intent allowed.
When an engine overheats (severe), the majority of the heat is contained within the cylinder head area since it contains the combustion chambers. When coolant is lost, the head empties long before the block does. The head warps, regular bolts now stretch. (In a severe overheat, TTY bolts won't save the head either.)
Then there was some discussion about plastic vs elastic range, deformation, ductility, etc.
Re: What would happen if I increase compression to 12.5:1?
Originally Posted by ezone
Did you learn all about stoichiometry yet?
You have made about 50 different threads so I'll just stick these thoughts in this thread here
(I've been considering consolidating all your posts into a single thread too )
Stoichiometry isn't the only factor to consider, but I figured it to be a starting point if you want to educate yourself.
I should have asked if you figured out some ideal AF ratios for maximum power using various fuels too.
The gasoline 14.7:1 stoich is not ideal for power, nor economy....It's ideal for emissions. The best balance and control of HC/CO/NOx emissions occurs at this ratio....that's why they make engines run at that ratio or as close as they can to it during low demand conditions.
Best power with gasoline is achieved at what, 12.5:1 (?) and an engine can be run extremely lean, 20:1 and beyond....but only in certain conditions.. Honda marketed some cars with engines designed to run that lean and they could get great fuel economy in the right conditions.
Alky ~97% pure Ethyl Alcohol, 9:1 ratio for stoich, probably 7:1 for power..... (Methyl Alcohol has similar properties, 5:1-6.1 ratio, and is even more corrosive) needs twice as much fuel or more to make the same power because it has half the heat energy of gasoline, it burns half as fast as gas so you have to almost double the ignition timing. You can run very high compression on alky to take advantage of the higher octane.
Cooling system performance becomes a little less critical because it burns so cool
Alky engines do not run great cold nor run well in very cold climates.
Add in....Alcohols are hygroscopic, they absorb moisture....which changes their properties, stability, and shelf life
Plenty of people run E85 in turbo and S/C applications with few or no mods to the fuel system components (other than fatter injectors), because most of todays vehicles are designed to tolerate some amount alcohol in the fuels.
well i can vouch for some,
i used new front chinese struts and new cheap chinesse mounts..
had problem with chinese mounts.making noise clunks,. so i returned chinese knock off mounts and struts for a refund,.. they came with bearings.
the rear chinese struts work great still.. no mounts i used the honda original oem.
Fronnt bought Monroe struts, and duralast strut mounts with bearings from autozone..
Monroe struts ok, but mounts clunk noises wtf.. every little whole clunck.
****ed I took them apart again, got freee replacement monroe struts again, but this time bought Monroe front mounts and bearings..
Car has no clunks.
So currently no issues I ride Monroe struts upfront with monroe mounts and bearings.
original Oem coil spring since new car.
Rear I have oem mounts original , original coil spring factory, and chineese brand struts are good, and still on it..
Call me cheap, but i tested it few options.
I do belleive the chinese struts upfront would have lasted, but their mounts were no good, i could have made it work with monroe mounts and bearings.
so currently chineese struts on the back are lasting as much as the monroe..
SO i wonder about quality, maybe monroe makes theirs in mexico or china also..
now my car is a dally driver test subject. if i had racing civic to play i would maybe put bilsteins.. )
and I know and I dont expect to last as much as OEM or bilstein quality.. but this combo has lasted for 50k miles already no issues and have oem good quality ride so far.
Put the correct injectors it. Don't the D16 injectors flow a wee bit less than the D17 injectors?
I will be adjusting the valves soon when I install my Crower Stage 1 cam. Also, the D16 injectors do flow a tiny bit less. 240 vs. 270 CC. However, the D17 fuel system runs at a slightly higher pressure than the D16 one, so the real world flow rate is probably very similar.
well i can vouch for some,
i used new front chinese struts and new cheap chinesse mounts..
had problem with chinese mounts.making noise clunks,. so i returned chinese knock off mounts and struts for a refund,.. they came with bearings.
the rear chinese struts work great still.. no mounts i used the honda original oem.
Fronnt bought Monroe struts, and duralast strut mounts with bearings from autozone..
Monroe struts ok, but mounts clunk noises wtf.. every little whole clunck.
****ed I took them apart again, got freee replacement monroe struts again, but this time bought Monroe front mounts and bearings..
Car has no clunks.
So currently no issues I ride Monroe struts upfront with monroe mounts and bearings.
original Oem coil spring since new car.
Rear I have oem mounts original , original coil spring factory, and chineese brand struts are good, and still on it..
Call me cheap, but i tested it few options.
I do belleive the chinese struts upfront would have lasted, but their mounts were no good, i could have made it work with monroe mounts and bearings.
so currently chineese struts on the back are lasting as much as the monroe..
SO i wonder about quality, maybe monroe makes theirs in mexico or china also..
now my car is a dally driver test subject. if i had racing civic to play i would maybe put bilsteins.. )
and I know and I dont expect to last as much as OEM or bilstein quality.. but this combo has lasted for 50k miles already no issues and have oem good quality ride so far.
i had a started blown headgasket , loosing every few weeks coolant,..this was way back at 250,000 miles..... I drove it like that..
i tested compression it was fine... 195 all cylingders back then.. did leakege test was fine/..
but somehow it was loosing liitle bit of coolant.... so i knew being a honda and having a chat few years back with my mentor of hondas ezone) i had a head gasket problem coming up soon..
luckily cam bolt came loose at 262,000 miles and broke my valvesss..
so i did my valves and headgasket then...
I never found out how long I could make it on my original headgasket...
but i did find out cam bolt was never ever taken off after assembly at the factory in 2005 being me the only owner... the ****er wiggled loose from vibrations 10 years later..).
i kinda learned on this car as a test subject daily driver how long oem parts last, how long aftermarket parts last,.. live and learn,... i have pretty good idea OEM is impressive... **** i still have the original thermostat and waterpump on it since new.. I am clocking 315,000 and just lost reverse inmy tranny original...
and no am not bulls....ing.. i have data to backit up.. only owner..
12-07-2017
So you think that the head bolt holes stripped because you used studs? What did you torque the studs to? 
Thermal expansion of metals can do a lot. Lol. Considering thousandths of an inch can have quite the effect on cylinder heads, I'd take every possible failure point into consideration. If you have the means to perform the tests yourself, I'd just do it. If not, I can see how trying to justify a 100-something dollar test from a shop can affect your decision. 
)
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