teezyyoxo

If you don't know me from any other Honda-related forums (DA, O8G), be advised that I write A LOT. So be prepared. I'll try to make this entertaining lol

Long story short, aside from my 09 Accord, I have an 03 Civic EX 5spd in my household that my girlfriend and I refer to as "the screaming metal deathtrap", and we refer to it as such for various reasons.

The car was handed down by a family member who knew that my household would be well better off with two cars, and the expectation was set that the car was in great shape and ran perfectly fine... this was not the case.

When we received the car via personal delivery (from Ohio >>>>>> Connecticut) from the uncle I no longer claim [lol], I could already tell that there was a surplus of issues, and the external/cosmetic issues were just the beginning, but those I'll get to as time goes on... provided that I keep that car long enough.

Nonetheless, there is a host of mechanical issues with the car; the most prominent being the brakes and lack of functional power steering (the latter of which I can deal with for now).
I don't believe that the car has ever had a brake job, as the securing screws for the front rotors were still installed and everything was [mostly] rusted all to hell.
The car was somewhat drivable/stoppable. Brake pedal had to be practically fully depressed in order for anything to "grab", but it certainly did stop.
I heard a loud bang in the rear and observed that there was a massive brake fluid leak coming from something in the driver side rear wheel well.
I replaced the wheel cylinder there, and the connecting hose (#9 in the related diagram). The threads on each end of the hose were rusted, and the thing pretty much snapped/twisted off, instead of me being able to unscrew it. Which was nuts.
I also managed to replace all of the drum brake parts (shoes, drums, hardware) as well as the front brake parts. I had no issues at all with the fronts, as I've done rotors and discs a few times on my Accord. It was my first time doing drums, but ultimately I made it work

Now, the handbrake is the only functional brake. Hydraulics are not functioning whatsoever.
Fortunately, I did not find any leaks today as I topped off the brake fluid just yesterday. However... pumping the brake pedal does nothing. With the car off, there is increased resistance with every depression of the pedal, however with the car running, it just goes to the floor.
The fluid in the master reservoir also did not decrease at all, it is still at the "max" line.

I figure attempting to bleed would be the next best step, to ensure that fluid is flowing through the lines at all... although I am most certainly open to suggestions.

I also tried to adjust the handbrake adjustment bolt but couldn't get the darn rear of the center console out... idunno how did it.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

GolNat

iTrader: (7)

Check for leaking fluid around the pedal on the inside and where the master cylinder goes into the brake booster. I believe a bad booster or master can cause those symptoms. The booster helps the brake pedal not feel so heavy but only works when the car is on.

Since you did replace a brake cylinder I would try bleeding it again as you may have gotten air in the line.

ezone

You blew out a line or wheel cylinder, replaced necessary parts BUT I did not see any mention of bleeding the hydraulic system after replacement of those parts.

Yes, they must be bled of air before you can expect the brakes to work correctly.

Service manual? Newest links on the last pages:
https://www.civicforums.com/forums/1...e-updated.html


Also, it's a 15 year old car from the salt belt......you want to complain about rust? LMAO

User 082322

Yeah , bleed the brakes properly, i find buying a brake bleeder pump works best for alone jobs and is a lot faster!!! I was able to flush my brake lines with new fluid by myself in about 20 min on my f150 Thanks to one of those pumps. If bleeding your brakes (for sure you did it right) doesn't work then your master cylinder is bad.

ezone

^That's a great way, quick and simple.....when it works.

I only say that because I've encountered many cases where the master cylinder was allowed to empty, the vacuum bleeder method didn't get it working, and power (pressurized) bleeder didn't work either. I had to resort to more intensive measures to get the system to bleed air.

teezyyoxo

To this, I respond:

From the outside looking in, I absolutely agree with you lol I wasn't surprised at all given that the car has seen quite the fair share of intense winters, but this family member spoke this car up so much ("new clutch", "its been maintained, cleaned," etc) that sure, the reality-check in me was expecting a scratch or a dent or two (and believe me, there were quite a few) but exclusively on the basis of the expectation that was set, the car is... or was... in horrid shape (but I guess pretty decent considering it came from Ohio??).

Also, thanks for pointing out that the newest links for the manuals are on the last pages lol those will definitely come in handy. I found a few different ones on other sites but the chassis codes confuse me so I don't know if I have any of the right ones.

Thanks to all of you guys though, I'll bleed the brakes next. Hoping for a day I have off work thats above 40º to get it done lol. I'll definitely keep you guys updated

ezone

You'll have to filter the info in the online manuals, many are not for US specific versions of the cars, so you need to be very careful about checking and verifying the engine version or body version you're looking at matches your particular car.


About the brakes....I reinstall the screws whenever possible, and yes the threads of the screws get corroded...

I'm in the salt/rust belt too, and sometimes I see cars start getting extra ventilation by 10 years of age... I was just under a 05 Taurus that has carpet padding hanging out through large holes in the floor. It also seems like Asian cars of 25 years ago rotted away much quicker than they do now.

Colin42

Taurus' of that particular vintage seem to be very susceptible to rot, I've seen a few where the carpet and underpadding is the only floor left in the driver's area.

teezyyoxo

Well, friends... bleeder screw snapped off the driver side front caliper since because rust. Should've saw that coming.
So I ended up ordering two new calipers because I figure the same thing is gonna happen on the passenger side too.
I also need to get an 8mm(?) wrench for the rear drums.

I may be jinxing myself, but hopefully nothing else snaps. Lol.

Colin42

repeatedly soak the crap out of it with good penetrating fluid. start doing this a couple days beforehand. do you have line wrenches? they help grip better

teezyyoxo

Ahh ok I'll do that. We've got some decently warm weather coming up too, which is awesome.

As for the line wrenches, I don't have any YET lol! I'll see if I pick some up today. Fortunately tomorrow is payday All I have are box-end combo, open-end, and regular combo wrenches. I'm surprised I have all but a single 8mm... smh

Colin42

if you're stuck with normal wrenches, try to use 6 point, if its the bleeder you can even use a socket to crack it loose. strongly recommend picking up line wrenches if you can though

teezyyoxo

Socket is what I used when the darn thing snapped off lmao I'll definitely keep line wrenches in mind.

From today on out I'm gonna spray some PB Blaster on the bleed screws on all four corners and the brake line bolt(s) in the front. That's the last thing I need to go... I'm imagining that I'll be perfectly fine on the driver side rear because that's the cylinder I just recently replaced lol, but I gotta get line wrenches first

teezyyoxo

Here's an update!

Front calipers successfully replaced and fully bled.
Driver side rear fully bled.
Passenger side... not bled at all. I tried but gave up out of being annoyed with the fact that one of the wheel studs on the driver front snapped off with the lug when I was loosening it to take off the tire... and for some reason I couldn't really get my fancy new 8mm line wrench onto the bleed screw bolt at all! I got it on there once, but couldn't hardly turn it, either because I could only get the heads lined up right at the top or because its rusted to hell. I did spray it with PB Blaster, I might give it a shot tomorrow.

Boy oh boy was there a lot of bubbles going into that hose during bleeding!
The car is noticeably more responsive to braking now, however the pedal requires a couple of pumps first before any actual force is applied, which is... strange. Maybe after I bleed the passenger rear, it'll be better? I'd think that the car would be significantly more responsive now. I confirmed that there are no leaks though by moving the car forward out of the its parking spot.. that's good news to me, lol.

ezone

Use the box end of a wrench or a 6 point socket.

Flare nut wrench (line wrench) usually has thicker jaws than a regular wrench and may not fit well (or at all).

A little heat may help, but too much heat can ruin the seals in the wheel cylinder.
Using a hammer and flat punch to beat all around the bleeder screw can help get it loose too, but there isn't always enough room to do this.

teezyyoxo

Noted. I didn't have an issue on the driver side rear! But let's not forget that I just changed that wheel cylinder!
I might've really just been annoyed on the passenger side. I'll give it another shot tomorrow probably.

teezyyoxo

Hello friends!

I've made a striking discovery last night of a very very rookie-esque mistake that could possibly be the explanation as to why all the bleeding didn't actually "work"... lmao!

So after doing some late-night research and cross-referencing the post-installation photos I took after replacing the calipers before bed, I realized... that I installed the calipers on the wrong sides! Bleeder valve pointing down on both. LMAO. Going to correct this tomorrow and re-bleed. Fortunately I have more than enough extra brake fluid lying around. Sheeesh.

Learning by doing, huh?

Colin42

Haha well that would definitely explain it. Hopefully you can get it bled properly. And get some caps for the bleeders

teezyyoxo

Lol!! I feel so silly. There are bleeder caps on all four corners

teezyyoxo

Update!

I swapped the calipers and bled them, while maintaining proper fluid level in the master reservoir.
And guess what.. THE BRAKES WORK! And so does ABS! I slammed on them from maybe 12-15mph in my parking lot and was shocked that they actually worked lol.
There is still some spongyness and the pedal still somewhat goes all the way to the floor, but the brakes respond well enough for the car decent to drive (with utmost safety and paranoia, of course)

Handbrake doesn't work much, as the car can pull off with it on after a bit of solid clutching. Same goes for the hydraulic brakes. I reckon I need to re-bleed, and this time, in the proper order. I know there's that star wheel adjuster in the drums... but which direction is which? Lol.

ezone

The self adjuster arm is supposed to only allow the wheel to ratchet one direction but it doesn't always work as designed until all the slack is taken up by adjustments.

You may need to pull the drums to closely examine the direction of the threads, then decide which way the wheel must turn and figure out how to release the self-adjuster arm when you have to back the wheel up.

I try to get the self adjusters dialed up as close to perfect as I can get before the drums go on.

teezyyoxo

Noted.

As for the hydraulic brakes... would re-bleeding be a good step forward to further correct the spongyness of the pedal? For example, if I slam on the brakes, the car will absolutely stop, but once it does, it'll roll some afterward and I'd have to really push on the brake pedal for any brake pressure to actually be applied. It doesn't really move from standstill with the pedal depressed though, which is good.

ezone

The next course of action all depends on WHY your pedal is still spongy.

Gotta have the mechanical stuff right first. Do they need adjusted? Adjust them first.

Then hydraulics. Do they need bled out? Bleed them out per service info.
Recheck for leaks in your new lines/fittings?

Is the master cylinder shot now that the pedal was stroked far beyond it's usual limit during bleeding? Maybe.

Do the new brakes just need driven/broken in to achieve maximum friction contact area? Drive it a few hundred miles and see if it improves. (common issue when rotors aren't resurfaced or replaced, new flat pads haven't conformed to the irregular surface on worn rotors)

teezyyoxo

Right. Rears, I guess, need adjusting... or the handbrake cable itself, but I don't know how to pull just the rear cover of the center console off, and I don't see any guides anywhere for it.

I can definitely re-bleed, too.

ezone

Handbrake cables must be fully relaxed before attempting to adjust the rear shoes.

If you never touched the cable adjustments it's probably ok.

Once the rear shoes' mechanical adjustments are correct, the handbrake should work normally and lock the brakes at the usual # of clicks. Assuming everything in the rear was done correctly.

teezyyoxo

I see. Yeah I never touched them lol. There's just super minimal resistance when pulling up on the handbrake. I'll do some research on adjustment for the rears and like you said, I should be ok then.

teezyyoxo

Update #32985490265............

Got new temp tags earlier this morning.
Went to get emissions done, failed because the machine gave an error for the car that was already on it (guy that was there before me) so they called me back maybe 2-3 hours later... while I was already at the Honda dealership/service center getting the three open recalls taken care of. Two of the recalls involved the SRS, the other was for a lighting harness or something of the sort, I don't recall at the moment.
I get half-way home and realize that the SRS warning light was still illuminated on the dashboard... I'm gonna have to bring it back and have them clear it.

Brakes are still... well... you know. I explained to my service advisor everything that I've done and noticed, and I was advised to "definitely" re-bleed, as there is "something wrong with the lines" and that the brakes "were not bled properly"... go figure. LOL. I'm stressing out.
I also specified that the only line I changed was the rear driver side hydraulic line (part #: 46361-S5A-N10, ordered from HondaPartsNow.com). Whether or not any other lines were changed before is beyond me, but I highly doubt it. I reckon if the technicians think that theres something wrong with the lines, this means that the master cylinder and booster are fine... which is somewhat of a relief. I was also advised to adjust the handbrake cable too.

ezone

If you didn't get all of the brake shoes and springs and hardware assembled correctly, there's going to be problems.
The inflator replacements don't include fixing the light if it was already on when the car arrived at the shop. Many of us do check codes just to make sure we didn't cause a problem, but that's probably the extent of it and most of the time you won't get to know what we found out for free.

Take that with a grain of salt. Advisors just take orders and sell things. Very few actually know much about fixing cars.
Many can only parrot phrases they have heard from others.
There are plenty of mechanics who wouldn't be able to figure your brakes out as well.

Did you actually pay to have it diagnosed, or was this all just just a conversation full of speculations?

Handbrake cable adjust is the absolute last thing to deal with.
Foundation brakes have to be mechanically correct first.

teezyyoxo

Before I begin, I just want to say I GREATLY appreciate your help and suggestions and advice and stuff, and I hope people remind you of that more often if they don't already, because you definitely deserve the recognition!

I will definitely double check the brake installation in the rear one day next week.

This, I didn't know. I emailed one of the other service advisors at the dealership prior to posting here and he said the same thing. So I'll have them take a look when I bring the car back. Unless there's something I could check myself with the battery disconnected...

I 100% agree, which is mostly why I do these kinds of jobs on my own, without depending on a shop. Ain't got money like that lol. I had really good rapport with the guy and I think he trusted me as much as I trusted him when it came to the validity of what I was telling him, and when he mentioned that I need to re-bleed the brakes, I figured that I needed to... because... yeah, I suck at doing this, clearly. A few other technicians said that air in the lines was extremely extremely likely... which... lines up with everything I've noticed up to this point, anyway. I'm just afraid that when I crack the bleeder screw in the rear passenger wheel cylinder it'll snap off, destroying the wheel cylinder completely and the brake line attached to it, like on the driver side rear............ I really don't wanna have to replace any more parts.


Speculations. The original purpose of me bringing the car in was to have those recalls taken care of, and I mentioned that I want them to take a look at the brakes to see if there's anything obvious that I did wrong or can be fixed easily... and I have my answer(s), I guess;

• Check rear installation
• Re-bleed in the proper order with new fluid!

Understood. I'm gonna post pictures once I get to doing that. Hope that'll help you see what I see.

ezone

Thanks.
Some other people think I'm an azzhole LOL

There is a way to read the fault codes yourself using the blinking light method..



If you had to do line work, you should have checked the bleeders before it became necessary to use them....that way you could have replaced necessary parts all at once. (trust me, learning this lesson can be a slow process LOL)

I agree on re-bleeing the brakes, but again the mechanical brake parts must be correctly assembled and correctly adjusted, else you may never be able to tell (by pedal feel) when the hydraulic system is sufficiently bled of trapped air.

I don't know your level of experience, nor if you have experience with various designs of drum brakes...so

Incorrect shoe adjustment (as well as some other mechanical problems) can cause excessive pedal travel, and air trapped in the hydraulic system can cause excessive pedal travel. It's hard to tell the difference by feel, and if you don't get the mechanical parts correctly sorted first you may chase your tail in circles.



Are you using two people during the bleed procedures? The one with the wrench must know what he's doing, control the process and call out the instructions.

If you are going to bleed, begin with the wheel where you had the line open. Bleed it out and see if there is improvement. While replacing...if you were quick and the fluid reservoir did not drain out, it stands to reason air pockets would be limited to the branch that was opened.

If it was open long enough for the reservoir to drain and get air trapped in the master cylinder, you may have air anywhere and that makes it tougher to bleed out.