Spark Plugs
to make sense right now 
07-08-2015
#32
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
Re: Spark Plugs
with just an 18" Breaker Bar (without the 6' metal pipe extension)
07-09-2015
#33
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Re: Spark Plugs
Maybe the tool of choice for some Honda Mechanics, but Ingrid from Scandia, MN
says she can free it easily with a 25 inch Breaker Bar
says she can free it easily with a 25 inch Breaker Bar
07-09-2015
#34
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
07-09-2015
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Be sure to have a small funnel handy and wear a good pair of insulated gloves. With the engine warm/hot (180-200 F) pour liquid nitrogen in the funnel ... enough to fill the hose (4 inches) so it doesn't boil out too fast. As soon as it boils dry repeat the process again. Then immediately remove the hose and quickly insert the Spark Plug socket with extension using a 25 inch Breaker Bar (not a 6 foot cheater pipe) and the formerly seized plug should easily unscrew without stripping the aluminum threads or shearing the plug.
Ingrid was formerly a competitive Gymnast and now enjoys rock climbing. Attached is a photo of a portion of an old painting of a rather fancy Swedish birthday party. Ingrid's great, great grandmother (Linnea Jansdotter) is the girl with her left hand gripping the blue bench and her right hand gripping the table top. Linnea was a natural born tree climber. Apparently she passed on some of her DNA to Ingrid. A few years after this birthday party Linnea with her family emigrated to America.
The following link includes a short segment (0:47-1:02) of Ingrid in the 4th "Video Results" that is 1:36 in length. Check her out for yourself as to whether or not she's HOT ...
... https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;...hs-mozilla-004
Last edited by MN-02-CivicEx; 07-09-2015 at 02:23 PM.
07-09-2015
#36
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Re: Spark Plugs
Gee guys. If the plug is truly seized and when you pull on a standard 1/2" drive 14" long breaker bar and the plug does not get free after turning it just a tad. Leave it a alone. Theses plugs will probably go 200,000 miles easily. Know I put them in my Civic and CRV but rest assured, it will be the last set. Interesting how the CRV NGK plug has a little leakage. Think it had 87K or so. The Civic had 107K. Both plugs have wear in the gap. However, the ignition system can easily fire twice that gap. I have had two other Honda's I have put plugs in and not sure why anyone would have trouble. However, if they had already been changed before and someone bottomed the crush washer and then turned another 1/4 turn, the aluminum threads would probably strip and weld to the steel threads. Bring this plug back out would bring all the aluminum threads back out. Unlike that stupid long plug in the Ford truck that actually broke into, this plug is not going to break. However, if you do not support a proper rubber lined spark plug socket square, you can break the porcelain.
Last edited by RIPSAW; 07-09-2015 at 03:34 PM.
07-09-2015
#37
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
Re: Spark Plugs
If you're talking about the brownish stain just above the metal hex, that's not leakage. It's a Corona discharge stain.
LINKY-CLICKY: http://www.ngk-sparkplugs.jp/english...q17/index.html
Measure the gaps in a couple of the used plugs, see if they are still close to 1.1mm (.044")?
I bet a plain cheap copper plug starting at .044" would have its gap eroded away to .080" or .100" after trying to run it for 100k miles.
Or pulled the plugs out to inspect them and put them back in.
Hoo boy that would sure strip threads.....and I know a few people that would do it because the instructions say to 'tighten another quarter turn after making contact', never taking into account the crush washer was already crushed once.
LINKY-CLICKY: http://www.ngk-sparkplugs.jp/english...q17/index.html
Both plugs have wear in the gap.
I bet a plain cheap copper plug starting at .044" would have its gap eroded away to .080" or .100" after trying to run it for 100k miles.
However, if they had already been changed before and someone bottomed the crush washer and then turned another 1/4 turn, the aluminum threads would probably strip and weld to the steel threads.
Bring this plug back out would bring all the aluminum threads back out.
Bring this plug back out would bring all the aluminum threads back out.
Hoo boy that would sure strip threads.....and I know a few people that would do it because the instructions say to 'tighten another quarter turn after making contact', never taking into account the crush washer was already crushed once.
07-10-2015
#38
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07-10-2015
#39
Re: Spark Plugs
thats why i go by feel with spark plugs, i have never used a torque wrench on a plug in my life
07-10-2015
#40
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Gee guys. If the plug is truly seized and when you pull on a standard 1/2" drive 14" long breaker bar and the plug does not get free after turning it just a tad. Leave it a alone. Theses plugs will probably go 200,000 miles easily. I put them in my Civic and CRV but rest assured, it will be the last set.
Leave well enuf alone is a good motto, but as we all know it's not easy for us Motorhead Mechanics to keep our fingers off an engine. After buying this one owner 2002 Civic two months ago i discovered the two middle plugs were seized. Had pretty much given up on #2 plug after a soaking with PB Penetrating Oil, breaking it loose but no more than 1/4 turn (CCW, CW, CCW). Gave it a few more PB soakings every couple days for a week, with some gentle hammer tapping using the plug socket against the aluminum head as well as the hex shoulder of the plug. Still wouldn't budge any further even with enuf torque on a 15" Breaker Bar that would remove most wheel lug nuts.
Even though i was resigned to ... "leave well enuf alone" ... decided to try again after 3-4 weeks had elapsed. Surprise-surprise #2 plug came out easily as if it had never been seized. The engine was warm (not hot) having been parked for about an hour. So, that experience has motivated me to occasionally keep trying to free #3. I've been able to break it loose, but only 1/16 of a turn at a time (CCW, CW, and CW again) using a 14" Breaker Bar. Hoping that sometime this summer with some occasional PB soakings every 3-4 days it will finally relent.
Attached are three photos of the original DENSO PKJ20CR-L11 Platinum Long Life plugs. All 3 still have a .44 gap. You can see the evidence of my hammer tapping on #2 using the SP Socket on the plug's hex shoulder by placed the SP Socket so it was resting on hex shoulder instead of being around it.
Last edited by MN-02-CivicEx; 07-10-2015 at 12:40 PM.
07-10-2015
#41
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
Re: Spark Plugs
a soaking with PB Penetrating Oil,
07-10-2015
#42
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MN-02-CivicEX . Think your plugs were original to motor? I followed Ezone's thread above in post post 37 for NKG Corona tracks. It also had some other info on knock off NKG plugs. Your's look strangely off color to a real NKG. Almost like a Champion rebranded. Old Champions were great plugs in cast iron but were not worth a flip in aluminum.
07-10-2015
#43
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MN-02-CivicEX. Think your plugs were original to motor? I followed Ezone's thread above in post post 37 for NKG Corona tracks. It also had some other info on knock off NKG plugs. Your's look strangely off color to a real NKG. Almost like a Champion rebranded. Old Champions were great plugs in cast iron but were not worth a flip in aluminum.
If anything one of today's comparable NKG Long Life Platinum plugs is of a lessor quality and would be more of a knock-off of the superior DENSO than what you proposed. Just because a NKG comes in a handsome Honda cartoon is no proof it's of a higher quality steel than a "PKJ20CR-L11 Long Life Platinum" plug with 126K miles. It's more likely a comparable NKG Long Life Platinum plug would've sheared off with the same torque that these two seized Denso plugs have had to endure. The quality of manufacturing in today's NKG plugs whether in America or China are knock-offs compared to the quality of the steel in the PKJ20CR-L11 Long Life Platinum plugs. That's just one reason why the gap in these plugs is still .44 after 126,000 miles ... even if you're still a skeptic.
Am attaching an even closer macro photo of one of these plugs so you can clearly see "DENSO JAPAN" stamped around the side of this superior quality "Long Life Platinum" steel plug. Have also attached a photo of the Spark Plug Ratchet that Ingrid uses so she doesn't over-tighten a plug and damage the aluminum threads. As a competitive Gymnast and Rock Climber Ingrid probably has a stronger grip than either You or Ezone. She whoops me when it comes to arm wrestling
07-10-2015
#44
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It would have taken Rock Climber Ingrid with that short ratchet to have cracked the torque on my CR-V. Even with my long 3/8 breaker bar, they made a loud crack breaking free. Obviously they were torqued past the washer crush. However, as soon as they broke free, they would turn out by hand on the extension. Engine was built in Japan and car assembled in England. I put Denso back in it since I had assumed (wrongly) that was what was in it from previous Hondas
07-10-2015
#45
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
Re: Spark Plugs
Check this quoted text:
Toyota/Lexus used that number, and they have double ground electrodes. Maybe others used them too, but not Honda automobiles.
Otherwise, your Denso plugs ending with L11 may have been installed at the factory (I have no way of knowing just using the catalog references), but the replacement according to my parts catalog is the one ending with M11.
Have a great day!
07-10-2015
#46
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The kind of Spark Plug Seizure we're discussing in this thread is most likely due to molecular transfer from dissimilar metals, moisture, carbon and NOT overtightening. Besides you already said that one result of "overtightening" a steel plug in an aluminum head results in stripping the aluminum threads. So, only "overtightening" of a steel plug if it results in stripping the aluminum threads.
If the aluminum threads aren't stripped then the steel plug really wasn't "overtightened" according to Ingrid's garage logic.
Your Happy Honda is glad you assumed (wrongly).
07-10-2015
#47
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According to my local Honda dealership the PKJ20CR-L11 was the original plug installed in my engine either in Japan or at Marysville. Apparenlty at some point Honda stopped making the L11 and subsituted the M11 as a replacement. Maybe, the L11 was a higher quality steel than was necessary as the gap is still .44 after 126,000 miles. Perhaps the steel's excellent quality was more prone to molecular transfer of dissimilar metals so out popped the M11
At any rate Ingrid's sequential Alphabet Garage Logic leaves no doubt whatsoever that L comes before M. So, Ingrid is of the opinion that my DENSO L11 plugs are the original plugs. Ingrid says to tell you to give your 6 foot cheater bar a rest and have yourself a restful weekend
07-10-2015
#48
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
Re: Spark Plugs
That's why I decided to run it past you for better or worse
I remember more of the NGK numbering scheme than anything because I've used it for almost 3 decades now. It's easy to wander into the parts department and select a suitable NGK (out of whatever we have on the shelf) for whatever I need, heat range change, gap change, etc., but I can't do that with Densos. I have to check a catalog for theirs.
Apparenlty at some point Honda stopped making the L11 and subsituted the M11 as a replacement.
I'll assume the (minor) difference is in the ground electrode.
Here's the actual meaning of the letters, from the horses' mouth:
-L --- For CVCC, with a withdrawn insulator
--- 3.5mm projected insulator for motorcycles --- Withdrawn insulator for motorcycles Thin center electrode for motorcycles ---
Heat resistant ground electrode
-M ---Larger ground electrode
From the Denso website:
http://www.globaldenso.com/en/produc...pec/index.html
HTH
07-10-2015
#49
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
Re: Spark Plugs
L
--- For CVCC, with a withdrawn insulator
--- 3.5mm projected insulator for motorcycles
--- Withdrawn insulator for motorcycles
--- Thin center electrode for motorcycles
--- Heat resistant ground electrode
M
---Larger ground electrode
Last edited by ezone; 07-11-2015 at 12:39 PM.
07-11-2015
#51
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Re: Spark Plugs The Iridium TT Twin Tip Technology delivers far less obstruction to the spark allowing an omni-directional explosion. This minimizes the quenching effect and results in a more effective, more complete combustion. Better combustion means more power and better fuel economy, as fuel is burned more efficiently with each piston firing. The large center and ground electrodes seen on a Standard Plug increases “quenching” of the explosion, meaning the spark explosion is restricted by the electrodes above and below the gap, allowing it to spread to either side, but not grow with full range.
For complete combustion, the Iridium TT’s two tips allow the spark plug to create the largest spark concentration and explosion, which translates into more power and superior fuel economy than any other plug ... http://densott.com/
For complete combustion, the Iridium TT’s two tips allow the spark plug to create the largest spark concentration and explosion, which translates into more power and superior fuel economy than any other plug ... http://densott.com/
Even if all four Iridium TTs have permanently bonded to the aluminum head between 100K-300K does Ezone really care IF Ingrid never again has to use liquid nitrogen and her 25" Breaker Bar or Ezone using his 6 foot Cheater Pipe Xtension to unseize a plug?
07-11-2015
#52
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
Re: Spark Plugs
Spark only causes combustion to begin.
All it needs to begin is enough voltage to ionize the gap under all conditions.
$7.99 is cheap.
Pretty much the reason the precious metal plugs got popular is because many engine designs made plug access damn difficult (and that makes a tune up expensive) so they needed to make plugs that lasted a whole lot longer.
Manufacturers like the long life plugs because it reduces the cost of maintenance figures and it looks that much better on paper and looks good in sales literature and car comparisons.
Nope. My car runs just fine!
You better go back and figure out who said that first, it wasn't me.
I'd break it off using an Ingersoll 1/2 inch drive impact gun.
All it needs to begin is enough voltage to ionize the gap under all conditions.
Or is it more about the $7.99 Iridium TTs never having to be removed and replaced even after 100K, 200K or even 300,000 miles ?
Pretty much the reason the precious metal plugs got popular is because many engine designs made plug access damn difficult (and that makes a tune up expensive) so they needed to make plugs that lasted a whole lot longer.
Manufacturers like the long life plugs because it reduces the cost of maintenance figures and it looks that much better on paper and looks good in sales literature and car comparisons.
does Ezone really care IF
or Ezone using his 6 foot Cheater Pipe Xtension to unseize a plug?
I'd break it off using an Ingersoll 1/2 inch drive impact gun.
07-12-2015
#55
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The Iridium TT Twin Tip Technology delivers far less obstruction to the spark allowing an omni-directional explosion. This minimizes the quenching effect and results in a more effective, more complete combustion. Better combustion means more power and better fuel economy, *as fuel is burned more efficiently with each piston firing. The large center and ground electrodes seen on a Standard Plug increases “quenching” of the explosion, meaning the spark explosion is restricted by the electrodes above and below the gap, allowing it to spread to either side, but not grow with full range.
For complete combustion, the Iridium TT’s two tips allow the spark plug to create the largest spark concentration and explosion, which translates into more power and superior fuel economy than any other plug ... http://densott.com/
For complete combustion, the Iridium TT’s two tips allow the spark plug to create the largest spark concentration and explosion, which translates into more power and superior fuel economy than any other plug ... http://densott.com/
*fuel isn't burned too efficiently when a piston chamber isn't firing. 
The Spark Plug
Serious Enthusiasts Rely On
Designed specifically for the performance enthusiast. Iridium IX® offers extreme ignitability, improved throttle response and superior anti fouling
Serious Enthusiasts Rely On
Designed specifically for the performance enthusiast. Iridium IX® offers extreme ignitability, improved throttle response and superior anti fouling
- Fine Iridium tip ensures high durability and a consistently stable spark
- Iridium alloy has extremely high melting point, perfect for today’s high-tech, high-performance engines
- Trivalent Metal Plating - superior anti-corrosion and anti-seizing properties
- Outstanding acceleration, high fuel efficiency and durability
- Ultimate design, technology and performance.
07-12-2015
#56
07-12-2015
#57
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
Re: Spark Plugs
and you may be falling for it.
Study more on the science of spark gap ionization and flamefront propogation, you might better discern marketing hooey vs. fact.
THIS I can agree with.
On the same note, gas mileage tends to decrease under this condition.
Did you compare your L11 plugs side by side with M11? Can you see a difference?
Study more on the science of spark gap ionization and flamefront propogation, you might better discern marketing hooey vs. fact.
*fuel isn't burned too efficiently when a piston chamber isn't firing.
On the same note, gas mileage tends to decrease under this condition.
Did you compare your L11 plugs side by side with M11? Can you see a difference?
07-12-2015
#58
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O, My GOSH! Just made my first TT Big Blunder in this thread. Ingrid Severely Scolded me for not reading the ... small print ... in that Iridium IX link i just posted ... "tapered ground electrode to minimize "Quenching Effect" ... http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/product...x.asp?mode=nml
So besides not reading the small print i wasn't Anywhere As perceptive as Ingrid to pickup on the difference in marketing language between Denso's Iridium TT Lingo verus NGKs Iridium IX Logic.
Ingrid was Irritately Irate over Denso's Iridium TT lingo implying that Japan apparently thinks American Mechanical Appitude (AMA) is that of a Dumb Blond Garage Mechanic. Have decided that *It's Xceptionally better to buy a $9.14 Iridium *IX Made In America than a $7.99 Iridium TT manufactured in Japan ... OR ... if a frugal penny pincher (like me) you can buy 4 Iridium IXs at O'Reilly's (Made in Mexico) for less than $30 ...
http://www.ngkntk.com.mx ... http://www.ngkntk.com.mx/activacionc...CategoriaID=45 ...
translation ... http://english.ngkntk.com.mx/activac...CategoriaID=45
Is "flame kernel expansion" something like popping popcorn in Mexico?
So besides not reading the small print i wasn't Anywhere As perceptive as Ingrid to pickup on the difference in marketing language between Denso's Iridium TT Lingo verus NGKs Iridium IX Logic.
Ingrid was Irritately Irate over Denso's Iridium TT lingo implying that Japan apparently thinks American Mechanical Appitude (AMA) is that of a Dumb Blond Garage Mechanic. Have decided that *It's Xceptionally better to buy a $9.14 Iridium *IX Made In America than a $7.99 Iridium TT manufactured in Japan ... OR ... if a frugal penny pincher (like me) you can buy 4 Iridium IXs at O'Reilly's (Made in Mexico) for less than $30 ...
http://www.ngkntk.com.mx ... http://www.ngkntk.com.mx/activacionc...CategoriaID=45 ...
translation ... http://english.ngkntk.com.mx/activac...CategoriaID=45
Is "flame kernel expansion" something like popping popcorn in Mexico?
Last edited by MN-02-CivicEx; 07-12-2015 at 10:35 AM. Reason: Made in Mexico is better than Made in China :)
07-12-2015
#59
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
07-12-2015
#60
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Is there any truth to the rumor that the NGK Iridium IXs Manufactured In Mexico (MIM) have a hotter spark and greater omni-directional expansion due its unique "flame kernal expansion" than the IXs made in Canada? The terminology ... "flame kernel expansion" is found only on the "http://english.ngkntk.com.mx/ (Mexico)" website.
Iridium IX Spark Plugs are the most technologically advanced high performance plugs available. Featuring a 0.6 mm iridium center electrode tip, they offer superior ignitability without sacrificing durability. The tapered ground electrode increases flame kernel expansion, while the superior heat range design is ideally suited to the demands of high performance environments. Specially designed to meet the needs of serious enthusiasts, Iridium IX Spark Plugs offer outstanding acceleration, high fuel efficiency and long life. When you demand the most from your engine, rely on the proven performance of NGK Iridium IX Spark Plugs.
Last edited by MN-02-CivicEx; 07-12-2015 at 02:59 PM. Reason: Is Popcorn Hotter In Mexico Than Canada?
