mrlittlejohn

Recently purchased 02 Civic LX Sedan, 5 speed

My son loves the car !

It has 235K miles and purrs like a kitten.

On his maiden voyage to college, it begins to show hot temp when he is in a gas station. He shut it off and raised the hood to cool. A little while later he was able to remove the rad cap and observed the level was low. He slowly added a little at a time to not inject cold water into the warm block. He was able to top it off and then finished his drive to college. The next day he add full strength antifreeze to top it off and bleed air out of the system.

For the next 2 weeks, he kept an eye on the fluid level and saw no problem at all. He came home this weekend and noticed when he was almost home (265 miles each way) and the temp started to raise a little. He made it safely with no high temp. The next morning, I looked at the rad fluid level and it was low. I added water. I notoced that the battery tray had antifreeze fluid in it, nice and green. At no time have we seen fluid loss on the ground. No steam in the exhaust and oil is oil alone.

Here is another catch. There is no cap on the rad overflow tank. I am thinking it bursted out of it and went out while driving. I have ordered a cap to be delivered to his house next week. I am going to get a new rad cap now with thoughts that it may have let too much out, too easily.

I started it up yesterday and let it run on the driveway for a while in the 100 degree heat. It got to temp and stayed there. When the fans came on for the first time, one of them squeeled badly. The temp never raised above normal. I also was watching the fluid when the motor got to temp and saw no bubbles to say from the combustion system. We may need to have that tested to make sure there is not a problem there in the future if we don't resolve this with the actions we are taking now.

Any other thoughts ? ? ?




Thanks in advance,
Mike

ezone

Blown head gasket.

And see if that squealing fan might become an issue.

hokiedad4

Just purchased an 04 Civic LX for my daughter (287k). We've also had overheating issues. She was on a trip to visit friends and was not paying attention to the fact that the car was severely overheating until it was too late. The radiator partly melted. We had it towed to a Honda dealer, who replaced the radiator, then found the thermostat was sticking, so replaced that. Also found the fans not turning on but for some reason replaced the temp sensor instead of the fan switch. She brought it home and we put the scanner on it. The fan was not turning on until it read 115°C, way above set temp of 93°C, so I've got a new fan switch on order.

So it was really just the thermostat and fan switch. Had this happened at home, I could have fixed the whole thing for $50 but anyway....

We ruled out a head gasket since there is no evidence of "milkshake" in the crankcase, oil in the radiator or water vapor from the exhaust (most easily seen when the vehicle is cold).

mrlittlejohn

I am really afraid of that right now. It does not give a peoblem when driving around town for a week plus. When he drives a distance, it seems to give problems with pressure pushing out fluid into the holding tank. He just went back tonight and saw the temps rising around 180 miles. But never got out of hand.



Is this a routine repair or something that may lead to many other issues that will warrant a motor replacement? I will have the work done by a shop as I have too many things going on to handle this job myself. I want to know whether it will be wise to repair with a head gasket replacement or will it require a motor rebuild or replacement?





Thanks,
Mike

ezone

The (original) problem is a small breach of the head gasket between a combustion chamber and the water jacket. It can get ugly if ignored though.

On short trips there isn't much liquid displaced at one time so it isn't really noticed (unless it barfs a puddle on the ground), but on a long trip it slowly displaces liquid until it loses enough from the radiator that it can't keep cool under a load. Liquid is expelled from the reservoir all over the battery and radiator areas in most cases.

The big problems happen when one continues to ignore or deny there is a problem, thus repeated overheats and subsequent damage. All it takes is one overheat to warp a cylinder head, so it needs to be measured for flatness by a machine shop and resurfaced if necessary/possible.

It's not routine IMO, as in I don't see them return for the same problem after repairs.....BUT so darn many of them need the head gasket replaced sooner or later. I did several of them while still under warranty, OTOH some seem to go a quarter million miles without needing the job.

BUT any overheat event can cause the same damage and symptoms all over again (fix that fan!)

At the 235k I'll ask "does it uses oil?" If it does then the time to replace rings is while the head is off....but that's up to you. (I personally would do it this way if I planned to keep the car).
It's more expense, and these engines can be had for cheap (used) but if you go with used, plan on doing all the stuff it needs to live before it goes in. Head gasket, timing belt, water pump, etc......
Head gasket because so many need it done, get it out of the way while it's easy, on the bench or stand. Wanna do rings now too? LOL.

In the past I did more rering jobs because buying a used engine is a huge unknown.

Consider labor fees too, R&R + teardown and reassemble isn't cheap.


Most of the time my customers just opt to do the head gasket job, sometimes with the timing belt work at the same time if it's anywhere close to due.
A rering is pretty expensive (at the shop) for a car that old, in many peoples eyes.
Most people can learn to check oil, even if they still refuse to do so....There's a tax on that.



Sorry if this reply seems random, I have a 3yo up here wanting to watch videos on youtube LOL

mrlittlejohn

Thanks ezone !

OK, it sounds like a head gasket job is around the corner. Right now the car runs fine for his in town driving. When he comes home next is when we will get the gasket done. Any tip on helping him make a 265 mile trip? Maybe stopping half way, letting it cool down enough to top the water back off? I did buy a pressure relief radiator cap to let pressure off of it.


Any recommendation on head gaskets to use?

I currently have in my Rockauto shopping cart
Asin water pump
Gates T-belt
Gates 180 degree thermostat
Felpro stat gasket
Gates upper and lower Rad hoses

I don't know which heater hoses to buy though





Thanks again,
Mike

mrlittlejohn

I see a DNJ full upper and lower set for the LX and DX models.

DNJ seems to have a lot of stuff, how is their quality.




Mike

ezone

Exactly this. Fill during the week regularly, fill it before the trip, refill during the trip BEFORE it gets hotter than usual.

(I once did a 6 hour trip in a car with a blown head gasket, blowing clouds out the back...I had to stop every half hour to refill. Had gallons of water in the trunk. That sucked.)


I use only dealer parts for the head gasket and timing belt related components.
At the mileage you have, I'd urge you to replace the tensioner pulley for the timing belt with a dealer part.

Buy cheapo parts, something goes wrong, the engine bends valves.

There's a thread around here by someone who bought some fleabay timing components from a seller called 'parts wizard' or some such, it didn't go 3000 miles.

JMHO,
HTH

mrlittlejohn

The Aisis water pump is a kit with the tensioner. I understand that Aisin is what Honda uses.



I have read that Aisin water pumps and gates belts are highly recommended.


I will listen to your suggestions...






Mike

ezone

I'll agree with the Gates belts and Aisin water pump, the names at least sound very familiar (I'm at home, can't check what's on the parts shelves at work now LOL.)

The tensioner pulley is critical, and aftermarket is a crapshoot. It becomes a super expensive crapshoot if it lets go.

There's an awful lot of people that have posted about this in the past.
Defective or counterfeit bearing, spring breaks or wears through the loop in the pulley bracket, etc. Any small failure can become very expensive.

A tow truck called out of town to the highway is not cheap either.

ezone

Found it LOL

https://www.civicforums.com/forums/3...-happened.html

The fleabay seller was "car parts WIZ"

streettopic

My 01 civic ex , was having cooling issues, turned out it was the waterpump, ran fine for a few months thennnn the tranny went out, plus radiator had a hairline crack around the top plastic.

mrlittlejohn

I am quite nervous about this engine now. My son got it back home Friday to leave it for repair. It was worse and needed a few stops to make it.

I have a good buddy in Jacksonville that informed me that he has never had any luck getting these motors back right if they overheated. Now, I don't think this motor overheated like the others did on him. I went to my shop and they are a little pushing on me replacing the motor from Japan Engines. http://www.japanengine.com/products/...0&search=&page= to be exact.

We were looking up the cost of labor/parts to remove, repair and reinstall the head, and it will be around $900 - $1100. This will be around $1600 - $1700




Has anyone here dealt with Japan Engines? My shop has had some very good luck with them. They have been very clean and ran nicely when they have went that direction.


What are your thoughts of direction, and the price of this engine. Estimated milage is 45K





Thanks in advance,
Mike

ezone

So now ask them 'How much to replace the head gasket on that new engine BEFORE it gets installed?'

mrlittlejohn

Wow

Are you suggesting I replace the head gasket on a 45K motor before putting it in?



Thanks,
Mike

bsmiley

Just a thought, but if you're that nervous about the D17 motor maybe its not the car for you. Sell it and move on (but don't get a Ford Focus).
I understand why you're nervous, but take a step back. Its just a head gasket.
You can get a pre 03 Corolla with the oil burning 1zzfe motor. Great cars, but sooner or later expect to replace the motor.

7th gen Civics have HG issues. I'd rather do a head gasket than pistons, bearings, rings on a Corolla.
If the head isn't badly warped a competent machine shop can straighten it. I don't believe your friend in Jax is right. Is he a Honda specialist? I'd find another mechanic. Maybe the ones with problems didn't use quality parts and gaskets when they performed the work.

You can do the HG yourself. There are some excellent DIYs and youtube videos available.

Even if you get the 45K motor and pay the labor for install, you could have the HG fail in that motor in short order.

If you do replace the motor can I have your old one? I'm looking for a spare to rebuild. I want to get one ready to go if mine has problems. I plan on keeping my Civic for a long time and I'm not worried about a HG.

ezone

Absolutely.

May as well get it over with while the engine is out of the car and the work is easy.

Remember, these were known for blowing head gaskets----- even before they got out of warranty.

Put a timing belt in it too, while it's apart.

You know, unless you want to risk it all. Head gasket job ain't cheap once that engine is installed in the car.







^What he said!^

Send him your old engine.....

mrlittlejohn

OK

I have heard enough, lol.


I am moving forward with a head gasket job on my original motor. I have faith in Honda, period. Or I would have bought a Chevy. Joking a little. I was focusing on Honda and Toyota. Joke the oil burning Corolla, but it is a good car too. This Honda replaced a perfectly running 97 Corolla that some jerk from Atlanta decided to hit and total. I was burned on a Mazda and will never do that again. I have always liked Honda and Toyota. I am going to do this head with a valve job, surface and pressure testing. Have the block deck checked for flatness and move forward with what I have.

I am looking at the Asin pump kit and gates belt (what Honda used OEM). I was going to use FelPro for gaskets. Ezone recommends Honda head gaskets. Anyone use FelPro with problems? Or any name brand to stay away from or lean to except from the dealer? I get no dealer discounts. I can look to one of the net Honda parts places if that is more highly suggested.

Thanks for your inputs. My Jacksonville buddy and I talked for a while last night before seeing these last two comments. He revisited what he was advising me. He said that I need to make sure everything is checked and looked at. He thought the low mileage motor price was high. He felt they were available on the area for around $750 but I could be better off reworking what I have. This guy has helped me in the past on my turbo Buick car and does side work, but is very knowledgable. He now has a job in aviation and does not have time to help me. I am going to use my local shop. They are just warning me of all the things that can happen. I guess they did not think that the 45K mile motor head gasket could go also.




Mike

Redneck_cdn

Close friend runs the local CQ machine shop and they see all the regional work for the dealers. He rarely sees any that have developed cracks or need valve work or even seals, just clean head in the spinner, properly deck the head (to a mirror like finish) replace the head gasket and you are good for another 200k's or until you overheat it again.

Make sure to properly fill/burp the system to prevent air from being trapped in the system after you are completed re-assembling the engine.

While you have the head off, disassemble the intake manifold/EGR plate if your has one and clean out the passages. (aka scrape the crud out of the passages)
https://www.civicforums.com/forums/a...0&d=1351390496


https://www.civicforums.com/forums/3...-passages.html

mikey1

i installed an Aisin water pump 30,000 miles ago and going strong,

i wouldn't recommend a "no name" aftermarket pump, but Aisin makes parts for many japanese vehicles, and seems to be good quality,

ezone

I'd let the machine shop decide what it really needs. It does not even need resurfaced if it is still flat within specs.
The deck should be ok. I've seen a couple of these engines run overheated until they quit (along with some melted aluminum) and the deck was still flat.

bsmiley

Very logical and sound judgement, but if you change your mind, I'd still love to have your old engine...

mrlittlejohn

Any recommendations for spark plugs, oil, oil filter etc. Particularly ones to stay away from.


Thanks,
Mike

mikey1

spark plugs - stock
oil - any standard 5w20 APPROVED oil
oil filter - any half decent aftermarket brand, Fram, bosch, k+n, mobil 1, pennzoil, etc etc

mrlittlejohn

Update

After having the head surfaced, valve job done and all put back together with new Asin water pump and Gates T-belt, the car has been running beautiful. I replaced the passenger side fan motor which may have been the root cause of the initial overheating. It would squeal often and had a lot of end play in the shaft.

BTW... I replaced the motor like had been done before.

Is there any recommendation if this occurs again, like this is the best replacement fan for our cars suggestions?



Thanks again for the help !



Mike

ezone

Aftermarket fan motor didn't last long? Do tell, I'm not sure I understand.

Use factory parts?
At 235k it may have just been worn out.
Replace the other one before it fails too?

Make sure the fans aren't constantly running, they can burn out too soon like that.

mrlittlejohn

The radiator fan motor on the passenger side was squealing here and there. I suspect that is what caused the overheating in the first place.

When I went to price it out, I found a motor alone replacement available. I resulted in saving some money and buying it on Amazon vice Autozone. There was one review on it as a 3 star. The person just said that he has found these motors will last 2 years and go out. But they do have a lifetime warranty and will be replaced for free. The motor I replaced was not original and was exactly what I replaced it with.

I will look at the driver side motor. I understand people standing behind factory parts. That is great. Dealers charge stupid prices for parts, period. These parts are made by every day companies, I want to find out who the every day company is that makes these motors. I have a Honda and that should be enough for the company that we continue to drive their products. I don't want to buy stock in their company that I only have the paper to show that I bought a Honda stamped piece of paper.


They are not running all the time, good idea to inquire about.




Thanks,
Mike

ezone

There are many dealerships that sell parts at wholesale prices online ....

I use this one for the catalog images a lot http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/



http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/...OR+%28DENSO%29




http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/...DENSER+%281%29