kinakoes2

I dunno... with cars getting more and more complex nowadays... and the control or at least interface of car functions going to highly-failure-prone personal and home computer processors and OSes (not only infotainment but chassis attitude, engine mapping and ESC as well) ... the likelihood of recall due to lazy, indifferent QA'll be even higher in the future, esp among the domestics...

Kia has its UVO infotainment system based on Android... and while that is far from the most bugproof OS out there, if it can hack the hell of mobile use, it's probably best for modifying for in-car use (just ask Ford how well their Microsoft Sync collab is going ). Still, ever try to use the early Android versions on early smartphones, as I did back in the late '00s? The mind boggles asking a system that new to change your ESC settings and not fail at some point.

The hard/electrical parts, though... when they fail, that's not a case of a software update to fix an inconvenience... that can at best park the car until repairs can be made, or flatbed the vehicle to a dealer... but at worst, can fail on you when you need the parts to work most. Honda is the last manufacturer to be able to say its cars don't apply to this (Honda Fit, Civic, and Odyssey are heavily represented), and I think they make a pretty damned good car. Trying to remove content from hard parts, or make your supplier give you something you're not willing to pay for, results in breaking parts.

http://goo.gl/v3hucC

The link is to an industry article on the fact that automakers are going modular in a big way for future platform builds... and since R&D cost is being saved by only being done once for all vehicles... the cost is huge when they get it wrong for German cars... and far more trying to maintain reputation for Japanese OEMs (Toyota is already learning plenty for trying to bogart content from the consumer too far with this, re: 2AZ-FE drivetrain).

The GM point is obvious, so I won't belabor it.

Fact: the more complex a machine is, the more failure points there'll be, and the more failures it'll have over time vs. a less complex machine, all other factors equal. In order to satisfy higher and higher standards for emissions, fuel economy, recyclability, features... finally all that at a price a customer will pay -- will result in less reliability, not more. Just look at any German luxury sedan: all of the above, in exchange for reliability and durability. When you have more money to begin with and possibly two or more cars in the household, this isn't a big deal... but I'm certainly not one of them.

TL;DR -- modern cars are more vulnerable to failure than older ones were at the same age, if both were decently reliable at that point to begin with. Older cars just have more problems due to problems being more frequent the further you go. Modern cars will be even more unreliable at the same age.

Honda Toyota

UPDATE: I went to the Honda dealership Thursday morning and asked around for a used Civic for $5000 or under. The Honda salesman who I'll call John Doe told me a 2001 model with around 110,000 miles on it was being traded in that he guessed was probably around $3500 and was arriving around 6pm at the dealer that evening and he'd give us a call once it arrived. Well that night came and he never called. So the next day I called Doe and we set up a meeting to come by to check it out Saturday at 11:30am and while on the phone Doe told me he took the car for a test drive and it was clean, ran great and no problems with the car.

The next day we got there at 11:30am and Doe wasn't there. We waited and waited and the other salesmen were texting him telling him we were there waiting. While we were waiting for Doe one of the other Honda salesman gave us the keys to test drive the Civic and when I sat in it it had around 140,000 miles on it and was pretty rough around the edges. So we took the Civic for a test drive and it ran ok but had a slight squealing spinning sound when I accelerated. When we came back to the dealer Doe still wasn't there and we waited some more and sat around. Doe finally showed around an hour late and he told us he was at the bank and had a brain freeze and forgot. So we told him about the sound and then he said it's probably the timing chain as if he knew all along and knew before we test drove it. They took the car in the garage to inspect it and see if there's any problems and if it can pass inspection. So we waited more and once the car was inspected Doe walks over with the paper and there's about 10 things on it that needed to be fixed or replaced in order to pass state inspection and one of them was the exhaust manifold. It totaled around $1600 to $2000 worth or repairs and they wouldn't pay for them. So we asked about how much they want for the car and Doe said they would sell it to us for $6900. We were besides ourselves. We let them know that we have been buying Honda's since 1998 and bought three Honda's from that dealer. We said the most we can do is $4500. Doe took it to his boss and Doe came back and said the best they can do is $5900. We said thanks for everything and if any other Civics came in to let us know.

We arrived there at around 11:30 am and got out of there at around 1:40 pm. We probably would have gotten out of there by 12:45 at the latest if Doe wasn't around an hour late at the bank.

$6900 for a used 2001 Civic with 140,000 miles on it with around 10 things a few major (exhaust manifold, timing chain) that need to be fixed or replaced in order pass state inspection totaling $1600 to $2000 worth of repairs. That's extortion.

kinakoes2

Yep. Esp since the 7th-gens don't come with a timing chain -- it has a timing belt.

Onward and upward. Never, ever buy the first car that piques your interest... when it's the right one, it'll reveal itself to you. Attachment right away is a tool the sales droids use to their advantage.

Honda Toyota

I'm checking out a 1999-2001 Audi A4 2.8 Quattro tomorrow. It's selling for $3750. I don't know how many miles are on it because the dealer was closed on Memorial Day.

Any of you familiar with the 1998-2001 Audi A4's ?

Also, what do you guys know about the Ford Taurus? Another dealer has one for a good price, I'll check it out too.

kinakoes2

All German cars become maintenance nightmares after five years. Since the trusty old W124 M-B 300E, there hasn't been a German car that can be excluded from this list. About the time the W124 became obsolete (mid-'90s), all the German marques began to do two things: increase the complexity of componentry, while removing content from what was not new (Honda did the same in 2001). VAG (VW, Audi) were the worst at this. Ten foot pole.

And you know my opinion of Ford cars... esp those designed before MY2005 or so. Garbage used, esp in the price range you're thinking of. Trucks, considerably better.

Honda Toyota

Ok, thanks for the info.

I found out the Ford Taurus has been sold.

The Audi A4 is a 1999 with 140,000 miles on it.

There's a 2002 Chevy Impala there with around 80,000 miles on it that's selling for $5000. I'll take a look at it. Any thoughts on the early 2000's Impalas?

Also, I'm going to be checking out a 2000 Honda Civic with 53,000 miles on it for $6000. That sounds like a decent deal to me. I need to go by the dealer and check it out.

kinakoes2

Yep -- don't waste time on that Impala... they leak coolant from the intake manifold and tend to no-start due to faulty electrical, both showstopper/stranding faults. 2002 was a bad year for that model.

Civic sounds good, much rather have a payment for a few months more than have that Chimp take big bites from my savings when it wants. Mileage isn't the only gauge of a clean car, so look it over skeptically. But it's a candidate for sure.

Honda Toyota

I contacted the dealer that's selling the Civic for $6000 that has 53k miles on it. It's only had one owner, comes with Carfax. It already went through the inspection and passes state regs and after I buy it they take it in their garage and go through it again. It has a 30 day/1600 mile warranty on it. If I do buy it then right after I buy it while it's still under warranty I'm going to take it to my personal mechanic too just to make sure.

Is there anything I need to make sure to tell my mechanic to look for? I think the first obvious thing is the timing belt or chain.

kinakoes2

Obviously the head gasket... as it's entered the point where it tends to go. Given this is an early 7th-gen it won't have the benefit of the newer revised head gaskets as well (there've been three revisions since the debut in '01), so see on the test drive if the usual signs and symptoms pop up, like a coolant level that stays over the MAX line and doesn't return at or below it when it cools down.

Then the usual stuff that wears, like tires, valve cover gasket and cam plug leakage, ball joints, crash damage, coolant condition, accessory belt tension and condition, A/C system performance, suspension damage/alignment problems, etc. Also if you live in a winter state check those upper control arms in back -- they tend to wear. If your tech is familiar with 7th-gens he can look them up, or you can do a search here.

And it's not a timing chain on these 7th-gens -- it's a timing BELT.

Honda Toyota

Ok, thanks for the info. I'll mention that to my mechanic and I'll try my best to look at and listen to the car when test driving it.

Does the 2000 Civic have cruise control as standard or optional feature? I forgot to ask the dealer. That's very important to me since part of my time driving is high way driving.

I'll post an update here on how everything went.

kinakoes2

Check KBB, Edmunds, or any number of other car sites to find specs on the 6th-gens. My guess is that since it was still fresh out of the '90s, not even power windows were stock on Civics yet. But since it was the last year of that gen, could've changed, I'm not sure.

Honda Toyota

I notice on the 7th generation Civics on the EX model it comes with the VTEC engine and the LX comes with the standard 1.7L engine. What are the differences in performance, mpg and reliability between the two?

GolNat

iTrader: (7)

The differences are minimal.

kinakoes2

EX: 127 hp, slightly less mpg, comes standard with VTEC-E (called simply VTEC on this engine, but it's not the same VTEC as on the DOHC Si models). After '03, very expensive LAF A/F sensor used instead of simple O2 sensor in the upstream location. Tubular 4-1 headers from the factory, leading to a cat that is further down the exhaust pipe.

DX/LX: 115 hp, slightly more mpg. Tend to more easily keep good mpg numbers as they age. Fixed valve timing -- no VTEC, so no VTEC components to fail, like actuators, clogged oil pressure screens and leaking assembly gaskets. Cat is right up next to the head, as is the upstream sensor.

Both still are prone to the same head gasket woes and automatic trans wonkiness (in earlier years). VTEC simply retains good mpg and driveability while putting out 12 more hp. With a manual, a heavier sedan body and ~60 lbs of extra crap in my trunk and on the rear seats, I'm getting 34-35 mpg, and that's with a driveability problem I haven't figured out yet, old coolant, and 1/2 qt of 5W40 diesel engine oil in with the regular 5W20.

If you can get an EX go for it, as there's a lot of extra standard features. But if you can find a lo-mile LX that's clean and straight... it's not a dealbreaker if it's not an EX. DXs... crank windows are not a feature I can live with anymore. You may feel differently.

kinakoes2

Honda_Toyota... I should tell you that if I had a choice between my 7th-gen EX and a 6th gen EX, both in identically-clean trim and condition with lo-miles... I'd pick the 6th gen in a heartbeat.

GolNat

iTrader: (7)

Where is your sense of adventure? The want for something that is considered amongst the Honda community as a "mistake". The red headed step child of civics!

bsmiley

I bought an 01 LX sedan 5sp MT about a month ago. I get 32 mpg in mostly around town driving. A few short trips on highways. I replaced the tires and got the wheels aligned after replacing CV axle, front wheel bearings and both front struts. She's got 158K miles and feels like she'll go for many more. Burns no oil, engine purrs. AC blows cold too. Power windows and locks, "local keyed" entry. I think the stereo or headliner will be my next area of update...

kinakoes2

Hahaha! Totally...

Welp, the only reason I have a lucky 7, is I didn't really have the luxury of waiting for a clean 6th-gen manual EX to show up on CL (yeah right... on Maui? HAAAAAHAHAHAHAHA The ones that aren't beaten to death going off-road with surfers and teeny-boppers looking for somewhere to toke in peace... are disfigured to primered, knock-kneed, door-stickered bro-riceriness beyond belief).

Actually, it was between a DX 6th-gen and this EX 7th-gen after the Messcort got wrecked... and because I wanted some power something after 1.5 years with that stupid Ford.. I bit on the 7th-gen. Hasn't really done anything to make me regret buying it, unlike the Escort... but it's staying stock for good reason.

The white whale of Honda cars are still, in order of Moby-ness... 1) unmolested, lo-mile ITR (pfffffft yeah right)... 2) stock, lo-mile early (3.0L) NSX without crash damage... 3) stock, lo-mile, B16A2 6th-gen Civic Si. I figure the only one in that group I could even think about driving one day, is the 6th-gen. And then it'll only have two doors, which is a dealbreaker.

kinakoes2

Honda_Toyota... reading back through this thread, I just realized I thought you were looking at another 7th-gen, when you were looking at the 2000, which is a 6th-gen, my apologies. I was giving specs on the 7th-gen...

Big difference IINM with reliability issues, as the head on the D16Y8/Z7 is quite a bit different (seem to not shed head gaskets nearly as often). But the SOHC VTEC components are very similar, so the above problem areas still apply.

They don't have coil-on-plug so long HT leads, and a big distributor where cam plug sits in the 7th-gen, so no problems with leaks there. Makes the same power in EX VTEC trim as the 7th-gen (127 hp) with a bit less torque, as its a slightly smaller displacement.

I think this 6th gen is a good one to consider getting, if it's anywhere near in decent shape.

Honda Toyota

At this point I'll take a 6th gen or 7th gen under $7000 dollars with under 120,000 miles on it that needs no major repairs, either no repairs or under $1000 worth of repairs.

Major repairs that are a deal breaker = Engine, transmission, frame.

Minor issues I'll accept and fix = Wheel bearing, tires, brake rotors, battery (standard maintenance.)

Honda Toyota

Ok, I just test drove the 2000 Civic with 53k miles on it. There was no Carfax. The car sounded like it had 150k miles on it. There was quite a long throw with the brake pedal to get it to slow down. There was no cruise control. I'll need to get the Carfax and take it to my independent mechanic and have him go through it before I even think about buying it. My gut instinct tells me it's a clunker and there's going to be quite a few things that will be found that need fixing on it.

Is it possible to install cruise control on the 2000 Civic? And for how much? Where can I buy it?

kinakoes2

Knew it was too good to be true...

Even with digital odometers, mileage can be wound back or changed. With no Carfax there's no way to determine with any accuracy if you're being punked. If the dealer baited you with a Carfax and switched when you got there... time to travel to a better set of dealers -- these seem to depend on ghetto, predatory techniques to suck you in.

You can install it yourself... but do you really want to on this car? I prefer the 6th-gen over the 7th-gen -- but CLEAN. Any car can be an expensive crapcan with indifferent owners and a stingy dealer.

Honda Toyota

Yeah, there was never any carfax listed on the ad for the car on autotrader.com and when I got there he never offered to show any carfax. I won't bother to buy from them. Not worth taking the risk. I'm still looking for either a Civic or Corolla are the top choices.

How is the Mazda 3 and Toyota Yaris?

kinakoes2

Well, they're not competitors for each other, for sure. Not even close.

The Yaris is about as sparse a car as you can get from Toyota... and judging by how stripped you can buy a Corolla, that's not a compliment. May even need to check an option sheet to get power windows... so forget cruise. Pretty good mpg though... but 'penalty box' is an accurate description.

Now... the Mazda 3, even its very early versions back in the early '00s, is pretty darned reliable compared to the ridiculous soda-cracker rustbuckets the Protege it replaced was. Had some problems with wheel wells rusting out in some very early ones, but by the time the smiley one came out in the mid-'00s, that was covered. 1st-gen 3s were also not that great with gas as the Civic and Corolla it competed against... but it was also a bigger engine (Mazda's MZR, called the Duratec at Ford). So while you paid for the extra poke at the pump, it gave it to you. Newer 2nd-gen ones are even better, much more driveable than the peaky D17, a smaller amount better than the 1.8L Corollas (which tbh were always very torquey compared to any I-4 Honda outside a K24).

Thing about Mazdas though.. is component cost. They tend to have more premium suspensions, so pricier when stuff does fail. Suspension durability isn't one of their strong suits either -- so don't think you can carve up a mountain road AND pound along a fire road to go camping at the same time -- that's what a CX-5 is for. But when it comes to aftermarket... it's up there with Hondas of late.

Honda is an engine manufacturer first and foremost (though you wouldn't know that, owning a 7th-gen ), but Mazda is a chassis company first -- that happened to be pretty good at learning to make drivetrains too. Not a fan of their clutch durability, but swap it out for aftermarket, problem solved.

Honda Toyota

A few hours ago I got a call from the Honda dealership the one that I visited last week with our infamous meeting with salesman "John Doe". He told me that he talked to someone further up the corporate latter and he mentioned we been buying Honda's from them since '98 and they would pay for all the costs of everything that needed fixing on that Civic we looked at and they would sell it to us for $4800-$4900. Which I think is fair. We're going to check it out friday.

The Civic is a 2001 with around 140k miles on it and needed around 10 things done to it. A few of the things were major like an exhaust manifold. It's being repaired by an official Honda dealer and fully inspected and cleared to pass inspection. So I think we're going to buy this Honda.

bsmiley

Dealer is still making plenty of money and 140K is great for an 01. I bought mine for under $3k and spent $500 on parts and shop fees. I had new front wheel bearings pressed in, and the spring and mounts transferred to new struts. A new CV axle and brakes all around. I replaced both window regulator/motor assemblies on drivers side. I am certainly better off for replacing the parts myself and I enjoyed it too. Gave me something to do on weekends before the summer heat arrives. This forum and youtube videos were great resources. I think the information here was a huge help. I drained coolant and tranny fluid, bled through new brake fluid, changed out both belts. I bought four new tires too. Michelin was the only choice for my 14in wheels at my local Costco. So far I am thrilled with the car. I have filled up 3 times, 31; 33; and 34 mpg.
My AC wasn't working so great, but I found out there is a cabin air filter behind the glove box. Took 5 mins to change with a new filter (Walmart $20) and now its ice cold.
I hope to get many efficient miles out of my Civic, for many years. I calculate I will save $700-800 on fuel costs a year. After a few years its all bonus savings.
If you're going to get a car from 2000-2005, the Civics and Corollas are the best.

kinakoes2

Not bad from a dealer -- they're still making far more than the rock-bottom 6% margin used, and that's in your ballpark. I got my EX with 144K with existing problems the seller wasn't going to fix, for a grand less than that... but were I not a tech, it would've been a lot harder to justify. Luckily, I am one.

So... you *did* look at a 7th-gen then... I wasn't imagining things. Someone rated me down for thinking a 2000 was a 6th-gen, when I was actually responding to the 7th-gen from the sales droid. I do know a 2000MY is a 6th, and not 7th-gen... but leave it to me and my wordiness to lose where I was.

Great! Well if it's going to be fixed to CPO-quality, that's a lot of work you won't have to worry about. Hopefully the head gasket's been done already or they do the swap.

Honda Toyota

Car UPDATE: My father and I just got back from the Honda dealership.

We walked into the dealership and our salesman who I'll refer to as "John Doe" was busy with another customer so we wait and another salesman comes up to us and tells us he'll check on the car to make sure it's still there, which was weird so my father and I sit down at the table. A couple minutes later our salesman (John Doe) comes over to us and says the mechanic is going through the car checking it over and he'll be right back. So my father and I are sitting there. Then John Doe comes over and we're talking about cost and we want to reassure that it's around $4800-$4900 for the car and discuss the taxes and fees on top of that. John Doe then tells us he needs to make sure the car is still there because people have been clambering to get at it and he leaves to check on the car. That sort of was strange and threw up red flags. So my father and I are sitting there and we're wondering what that meant. Then John Doe and the other salesman come over and sit down with us and they say that the mechanic thinks there might be some more problems with the car like the head gasket and he needs to inspect it a little bit further and and he's a little concerned. So both the salesman walk away and disappear into the back again. So my father and I knew something was up and our spirits were low. And I was wondering why doesn't the mechanic just repair or change out the head gasket with a new one? My father had a sneaking suspicion something was up. My father said to me he doesn't think the car is there and they're pulling our chain.

So the two salesmen come back over to the table and tell us the mechanic doesn't think the car is worth it and he doesn't have confidence to put it back onto the road. They didn't have confidence in selling it to us. They said that if we buy it we might only get 10k miles out of it and then it will blow. The big issue was the head gasket and I believe one other issue which I forget what it was. They said they'll probably auction it off and might only get $3000k from it. They said at that price point they could find us a better car and they would keep looking for one for us and maybe have one by the end of the week or so. My father then asked them if the car was there and if we could see it and if they're yanking our chain. Both the two salesmen said the car is there and if we drove around we'd see it way at the other end. But they never offered to show us the car personally. But wait a minute, if the car was currently being inspected then how could it be "way at the other end" ?

Now let me ask you guys, could the mechanic have fixed the head gasket and did some work to the car and would it have been drivable? Were they yanking our chain or what? What do you guys think?

My gut instinct told me something wasn't right and there was some dishonest and disingenuous actions and language. I think John Doe knew about these problems yesterday or before we got there at least and didn't want to tell us on the phone and wanted us to come in and tell us in person or the car was sold to someone else who offered a better offer. I also believe that the car was already inspected before we got there and was just sitting there in the back lot and both the salesman knew all along they weren't going to sell us the car so they would disappear in the back giving us the impression they were checking on the car talking to the mechanic.

I also don't understand why he told us while we were sitting there that he needed to check to see if the car was still there at the same time while he said mechanic was inspecting it.

This is the second occasion now dealing with John Doe and the other salesman with their disingenuous shady behavior.

So no car for now.

Honda Toyota

Should I continue to do business with this dealership?

kinakoes2

Fool me me once, shame on you.

Fool me twice...