BlueEM2

iTrader: (1)

Ebay wheel bearings!!!

kinakoes2

Must not drive down many bumpy roads then! j/k

So did you get GM's half-arsed SB manifesto for the tumbler issue that's seriously cost them major credibility? Use a key with a round hole, rather than the slotted ones, and use only the one key in the ignition.

I can't seem to get into the 9th-gens. Dunno why... maybe it's just the stink of the 2012 debacle. The new Fit however, has more power than the 7th-gen EX (with the same weight roughly), plus finally a iVTEC DOHC L15B makes it to the Fit (hope it actually gets an aftermarket).

Corollas are indeed super-boring... but they'll be way less maintenance-intensive, as few components (esp in suspension) will be unproven. Not my first choice for someone looking to mod for fun... but Toyota abandoned any performance aspirations for a Corolla platform since the Matrix XR-S and Celica tanked... so yeah, they catered it to new parents, commuters and appliance-seekers who care nothing about driving and even less about maintenance.

Honda Toyota

When I sat in that '04 Corolla it was as plain Jane as possible. A 1990 Chrysler LeBaron has more character inside. The 7th Gen Honda Civics blow the Corolla away with regards to character, form and function inside. But I'm just looking for a reliable car with great gas mileage. I haven't ruled out the Civic.

What do you guys think of $5400 on a Corolla with 110k miles on it with 3 previous owners? Should the price be lower? How can I negotiate with the dealer?

SyDiko

(My first post!)

I was in the same boat as the OP, my target price (with plates) was $4,000 and I was looking for something with less than 180,000 miles, reliable, and great on gas. I narrowed my selection down to either an 03-06 Corolla or 7th Gen Honda Civic EX.

After about 2 weeks of scouring eBay, used car lots, and Craigslist - I found my 2001 Honda Civic EX w/ 174,000 miles for $3500. And being $500 under budget, I used that money to start fixing the little issues that needed attention; such as the dash bulbs, wipers, cabin air filter, etc.)

So why did I go with a Civic? Cheap parts, cheap to fix, easy to fix, and cheap to fill up the tank. Did I mention its awesome on gas and the insurance is dirt cheap?

Why I didn't go with a Corolla? My girlfriend used to own a 2006 and while it was an excellent car for highway travel - it was a little pricey to fix. It was also a little harder to work on, and parts are not as readily available for the Corolla as they are for the Civic.

In the end, I don't think you can go wrong with either as a beater, first car, or primary car. I'm guessing when get a feel for both, it'll come down to which you'd rather drive.

kinakoes2

A Chrysler LeBaron, however, more than makes up for any attraction its character may have, by being an unapologetic money pit after five years. Only thing they're good for is buying for $100, turbocharging the bejeez out of and gutting the car to go drag racing. The Corolla won't even be broken in.

The driving dynamics are the thing that equal-year Corollas cannot touch with a 10-ft pole. My EX is astounding in what it could do over my Paseo, and it weighs a full 600 lbs more. It feels chuckable in a way no Corolla would do without lots of suspension work, while still feeling supple over bumps. So if that's what you prioritize, get the Civic. Just know you're buying a car with a known HG issue.


If this is the same '04, then it's in the ballpark. With a dealer there's less wiggle room due to 1) the honest ones will have put work into it that they'll pass the cost down to you for, and 2) if they're not, they know with a Toyota it's worth waiting for the next sucker than negotiate with you -- 110K is not even half its service life, and it can go further than the Civic with equal driving due to state of tune. That's a Toyota MO: tune less sporty, go further.

The only way I can see to haggle it down depends on the condition of the vehicle, and any maintenance issues that are looming on the car (like a VC adjustment). Find an '04 Corolla owner's manual online and look at the service schedule. Check onsite, things like ball joints/tie rods (jack the front corner up and inspect for play in the wheel horizontally (tie rod) and vertically (ball joint). Look for rust in wheel well and in the rocker panels around them. See if you can find any rusty creases or other telltales (bent rad) that may indicate the car was in an accident... etc. etc.

If they won't budge, walk away... unless you have a hankering for spending money learning the hard way about cars, move on.

Honda Toyota

I just called the dealer and he said there is two price options for the '04 Corolla I'm looking at. The more expensive option is $6900 which he said comes with a warranty and he will take into his garage and go over and pay for any thing on the car that needs fixing.

The second price is the $5400 option which means if I choose that option and take to an independent mechanic I pay for whatever that mechanic finds that needs fixing.

The dealer said that the only thing that needs changed is the wheel bearing and that it's safe for test driving.

Any opinions on what I should do?

I also keep checking around for used Civics and they also keep their value. There are Civics that have over 150k miles on them selling for over $6000.

Stock 99

just my 02

Have you bought and sold many cars?

Personally I wouldn't buy from a car dealer myself. Mainly because somebody probably traded that in on something else and the dealer gave them like $2500 for trade in. Now they want +$5000 for it. You are paying the dealer to sell that car and not actually getting the $5000 value that you would from a private sale. 3rd owner? meh

I bought my Civic almost 4 years ago now privately for $4200 from the original owner who never modified it and had all servicing (including oil changes) done by a Honda dealership. It had 100k miles on it when I bought it and the timing belt hadn't been changed...the owner wanted $4800...dropped the price to $4400..I drove it...pointed out the timing belt issue and offered $4000...we settled on $4200. The only thing I've had to do to that car in 4 years is replace the upper control arms ($300) and regular maintence.

I would forget the dealer and look privately for better value. I would look for a 10 year old car that is being sold by it's original owner. I would avoid a 2001,2002,2006 Civic and automatic tranmission. Aside from that though both Toyota and Honda have a great reputation for being reliable well built vehicles and would feel pretty comfortable that either would last for many years without excessive repair bills

kinakoes2

^ +1 on Stock_99's reccie -- skip that dealer. I would never pay $7000 for a 10yo third owner vehicle, unless it was a high-end Lexus luxury sedan like an LS400/430. My Civic is a third-owner vehicle, but paid only a bit more than half of that for it (less than S_99, even), with a little more mileage and some scrapes. Plus, it'll be worth only a few hundred dollars less in 3-4 years when I sell it.

2001-2002 had the auto trans problems and other new-gen problems, and the 2006-early-2007 8th gens had block cracking issues, same reason. As expected, the last two years of each gen are the most reliable, as it goes with almost all car makes. Hondas across their model lines have classically struggled with automatic transmission durability, not even in the same universe as their manuals, esp behind the bigger engines.

BlueEM2

iTrader: (1)

As far as I know. The tumbler issue has nothing to do with the Cruze

kinakoes2

Ah good -- the Cruze has had so many recalls show up in my RSS feeds lately, that I thought it'd been included.

BlueEM2

iTrader: (1)

It has had a few recalls. Name a car that doesn't. At least GM is recalling stuff now. Apparently they went through a phase where they didn't

kinakoes2

In the timeframe, only the new Ford Escape has had as many showstopper recalls in as short a time. The bigger new GM sedans aren't that far behind.

Toyota is the most recalled automaker, but they're very proactive about it in the first place, with problems such as trim and convenience features coming under the recall banner along with the obvious runaway debacle stuff. They deserved it, they tried to put profit above engineering and got what they deserved.

However all the USDM automakers have been this way since at least the Roger Smith days, 'unless it kills somebody and affects sales, let them try to sue us for action'. GM especially also treats its suppliers like poo, so it's no surprise many of their recalls have to do with hard parts breaking. Toyota and Nissan have the best relations with their suppliers.

The Saturn Ion (2003-2007), Chevrolet Cobalt (2005-2010), Chevrolet HHR (2006-2011), Pontiac G5 (2007-2010), Pontiac Solstice (2006-2010), and Saturn Sky (2007-2010) ignition recall was just their corporate culture in action -- save pennies here to spend dollars later.

lowlife9

the sheer fact that GM didn't recall a 8 dollar part that they knew was killing people is why i would never buy one. i really can't fathom why all these people buy american cars just because there ''american''. i mean this isn't the first time this has happened. the real slap in the face is we paid to bail gm out for 11.2 billion wtf people enough is enough let these ****ers burn.

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

GM is finally catching up, fast. Good they are, actually...

kinakoes2

Yup. I could reinforce my rep for being the resident super-wordy TL;DR by going into this in depth... but for the sake of all sentient beings, I will not.

Six major, two minor recalls in five months. A long history of treating customers, dealers and even their own suppliers like stepchildren, through insane decisions to save a million dollars to spend multi-millions mopping up the consequences. Not a factory I want to buy a product from, as their determination not to change has made them skilled at defending this schtick. Not being anti-USDM, either -- I will *never* buy a new German car, non-performance Nissan or a Toyota, presently at least... but not for the same reason as domestics. If no choice and had to get plunked down for a decade in Detroit by aliens... maaaybe a Ford truck. Otherwise, nope.

lowlife9

i here you i have my disregards for german cars but at least these companies have a higher reguard for human life i mean even porsche recalled there entire super car for sporadic fires there entire car !!!. gm could give two shitz. GMs entire modo is *** you pay me.

Honda Toyota

Yeah, the Paul Walker crash really was horrific and showed how "delicate" those Porsche super cars are. Do most cars and supercars explode into flames like that when they hit a pole at high speed?

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

...

doubt any car would not explode at real speeds...

try hitting the pole at that speed yourself without the car and you will have more respect for it still having parts resembling a car...

kinakoes2

The Carrera GT isn't delicate, pre se... that wreck might give the impression of it, but it's only because when carbon tubs fail on impact, they don't bend -- they shatter, explosively.

Porsche is a bit different than the other German car marques... but only just. The main diff is that they're 1) a company that up until the Cayenne, made nothing but sports cars, so racing is a major part of their heritage much more than making road cars, and 2) they tend to stick with a philosophy and refine it, rather than the 'oo shiny' tech-of-the-week tendencies of the other German makers.

VAG (VW, Audi, Lamborghini, Bugatti, SEAT, Skoda) and Porsche are headed by the same family... one side thought that selling road cars to go racing like Ferrari was the best way (Porsche), the other thought racing was only necessary to sell saloons and coupés and estates (sedans and coupes and wagons, VAG).

So while Audi's R18 E-Tron cleans up in LMP1, very little of its tech will go into say, an RS6, or Huracán, or Veyron. However much of the Carrera GT's donor car, the LMP1-98, was simply made road-legal and polished enough to idle in traffic and other road requirements. But much of its setup and geometries remained true to racecar practice -- so much so that without a top driver's reflexes... it can quickly and brutally get out of control. For a race driver, that's what you want, as they're trained to use it. But for a rich guy who's only exposure to the track was seeing LeMans on TV... it can get ugly. This is what happened to Roger Rodas, who bet his talent in the GT was equal to a top LMP1 driver's, while on street tires... and lost.

People want to sue Porsche for 'selling a dangerous car', according to some around the Walker incident. I hope Porsche beats all of these morons in court like rented mules... same people who demand Porsche stay true to heritage with 'legit' race hardware, then when it's too much for them to handle, crawl back in their moms and sue.

GolNat

iTrader: (7)

But they have a Corolla "Type S"

That's why they made Scion, smart move in my opinion. You can get your TC or xB loaded with TRD stuff from the factory included in your car payment. If you are a DIYer there is good aftermarket support (maybe not civic good) but better then Toyota. My wife had an xB and it was a fun little car. My dad had an xA and that was fun also.

So true. I feel Honda has not gone down that path completely. The Accord is still a C&D 10 best and the new Sport model looks really sharp and is suppose to be lots of fun to drive. The Civic still comes in an Si trim with a manual and is more of a sporty car then a Corolla Type S. I do like the Fit also, and if I got rid of the Civic I think I would look for a Fit.

My list of small cars if I were buying new:

#1 - Civic (Fit, but I think it's considered compact car)
#2 - Mazda 3 Hatch
#3 - xB
#4 - Corolla
#5 - Focus
#6 - Sentra
Not an option - Dart

Buying a used car:

#1 - Any Honda
#2 - Toyota, Scion
#3 - Mazda (pre and post Ford)

kinakoes2

Thing about esp the "S" as opposed to the "XR-S" trim level... the XR-S Corollas used the 2ZZ-GE from the Celica (as did the Matrix XR-S) but 10hp detuned... but once that quite problematic motor was phased out, a Camry motor stood in, and you know how exciting those are to rev out. The Matrix 2ZZ was even the same tune as the Celica's, which was really fun to run through the gears but super-tiring to drive rush-hour... I had an '03 for a few nice months in '04... long story.

I dunno -- Scion hasn't hit that combo of value and gotta-have factor in anything but the FR-S -- and that's about the least-versatile car Toyota makes. I miss when Corolla GT-Ses could bounce off the rev limiter all day with rear drive, for an adjusted $18K-$20K, then swallow a dresser in the hatch with the seats folded down, and still get 30 mpg. The FX16 GT-S was a close second to that (but with mildly terrifying handling at the limit). They seem to want to put their money into crossovers and hybrids nowadays, which is a shame but that's what had to go to balance the checkbook, I guess.

Honda is in the same boat -- they can't depend on their racing heritage (as amazing as it is) to carry their passenger car sales anymore, esp in the USDM. Performance and utility/mpg seem more than ever to be exclusive at Honda, and their vehicles don't dominate like they used to. Blame the world recession, and a little project called the Hondajet, for Honda not having a lot of R&D cash to get their backs off the wall...

Mazda is tons smaller than either company... but has debuted a 3S that checks all my boxes -- hatch, check. 184-hp and 32 mpg combined, check. Joyful handling benchmarked by a two-seat sports car, check (used to be Honda with the NSX and S2000). Sterling reliability, check. Amenities and tech features galore, check. Looks even close to sexy, check. Just shut up and take my money.

However, the 2015 Fit has gone DOHC, and makes more power from its L15B as the D17A2 did in the 7th-gens, with DI and 36 mpg (w/ CVT; 32 with the snazzy new 6-speed). And its features list is way, way better than the old L15A Fit. So hopefully I can proudly buy a new Honda someday, if a drone happens to take out the Mazda factory.

bsmiley

My family has a 99 Corolla LE with 90K miles and 01 Civic Lx with 157K. I like and respect both cars. The corolla is a 4sp auto, civic is a 5sp manual. The civic is more engaging to drive. The Corolla is a quality, solid car. 98-02 models have some oil issues. Ours seems to lose some oil. Can't find a leak, don't smell it burning or see smokey exhaust. My son hasn't developed driving maturity yet and always has his foot in the gas. Revs her up and races to the red lights. So his mileage is crap and I hope the Corolla is tough enough to handle his punishment.
The civic is driven by me, I shift before 3K 80% of the time and get 31mpg in mixed driving. She burns no oil, no leaks. I wouldn't trade the Civic for a Corolla. Son wouldn't trade his Corolla for my Civic.
Drive both and choose the one you like the best.
Now we are posted in a 7th gen forum, so above is my 2 cents. If we are talking current models, Mazda 3, nobody else comes close!

Honda Toyota

UPDATE: I went to the dealer today to test drive the Corolla and take it to my mechanic. When I turned on the car even before the dealer put on the plates I could tell something was wrong. The car was sounding strange. I just thought it needed to be warmed up. When I pulled out of the parking lot and accelerated onto the road and got around 30mph it sounded loud from out the back. At first I thought a truck was right behind me riding my tail. Sounded sort of like a raspy roar and droning. It sounded like there was no muffler on the car. Possibly a hole in the muffler of catalytic converter? On deceleration when my foot was off the gas pedal it would sound like it was over revving. When I would barely put my foot on the brake pedal and barely ride the brake I could tell the brakes sounded a little strange and made a little noise.

On the way driving to the mechanic my father and I decided the car was junk and not to waste the mechanic's time because the mechanic most likely will find things wrong with the car that the dealer either didn't know about or didn't want to tell the customer. And I wasn't going to be driving around in a car that sounded like a pickup truck with an aftermarket exhaust on it. And I wasn't going to spend $5400 on that piece of junk to have to put a lot of money in it and I wasn't going to pay the full $6800 on it with warranty.

When I arrived at the mechanic and parked in front of the glass door of the business, I saw the reflection of the car through the glass and the left head light didn't work, possibly burnt out bulb. Right there my father and I confirmed it's a no go. No way.

When we got inside we mentioned to the mechanic what we experienced and he knew right away it's a clunker with big problems and told us the dealer didn't sound like an honest or good business man. The mechanic said that year Corolla has problems with oil leakage and burning oil and problems with catalytic converters and mufflers. I mentioned to him about the Ford Focus and he said it's a good car that's been around for years and it's pretty good.

When we left the mechanic and were driving back to the dealer we tried the AC and we couldn't get cold air out of the AC.

The seating position was a little uncomfortable. There's not much leg room as the seat doesn't go back far but there's a long reach to the steering wheel so my arms are almost fully stretched out to steer with both hands.

One positive can say is that the car does have a comfortable ride on the road and my dad agreed. The Civic is more sporty with more stiff suspension and the Corolla is more soft over bumps.

I'm going to be looking into the Ford Focus next. Any thoughts on the Focus and other cars in that range? Maybe a Mazda Miata? I'd like to get a car that gets at least 32mpg city and 40mpg highway.

kinakoes2

Ford Focus. You're about to hear my opinions on the 1st, 2nd, and newest Focus... get your welder's hood on.

I have a client friend who runs a discount rental here on Maui. He buys the used vehicles from the big rental companies and refurbs them for further rental hell duty, mostly via auction in Honolulu or on the mainland. He bought a fleet of 15 Focus auto sedans this way, and wrenched on all of them himself (former diesel tech).

He said he'll never touch a Focus again with your ten foot pole -- they almost put him out of business. He shared some of the weaknesses of esp the 1st-gen (SPI) Focuses...

-- The 2.0L SOHC SPI engine is a heavily-modified version of a European engine (CVH) that first debuted in the late 70s in carbed form. Its cast iron head and block are huge, easily double the size of a R18 head. It was still being put into Escorts, then the early Focuses, long after it was infamous for shedding the newer SPI intake valve seats, often destroying the head and piston, and sometimes even the cast-iron cylinder. Ford has never acknowledged this problem in 10 yrs of production in SB nor have they changed the seats -- even the last SPI Focus to be sold, can have its engine mortally damaged by a valve seat falling out, no one can predict when. Utter junk, don't get under one -- you'll regret it.

-- The Zetec DOHC engines that followed are much, much more reliable... but they have their own problems, like plastic thermostat outlets that warp and leak coolant, sometimes catastrophically at high speed, guaranteeing a warped head. Their cam belts are also quite difficult to change compared to the Civic without special tools. New valve cover gasket leaks, sheared bolts on the flywheel, and the fact that the manual trans must be removed to replace a speed sensor, make this less a good design, as not-as-thoughtless a design, at least for us home wrenches. The early Focuses also have terrible service access (as is the way on Ford cars in general compared to esp Honda & Toyota)...

-- Ford doesn't know how to make an automatic transmission last reliably past 5 yrs in anything with four cylinders, even less so if it's FWD. Escorts, Focuses, Fusions, Escapes, Fiestas... all infamous for auto/dual-clutch manumatic problems. Eject...

--

Miata? I love Miatas... but they're not really versatile or cheap-to-insure cars, nor are they mpg stars (I want an NA though!). They also tend to blow shocks after a few years. I'd look at a 1st-gen C1-chassis Mazda 3 (2003 - 2008) and if you can find one in your price range, a happy-face last-gen one. Great reliability, great handling, lots of aftermarket, and best of all... IRS. After sixteen years with a Toyota beam axle... I'm pretty pleased with even my Civic's worn indy rear. Would never go back. Although if you live in a place where there's lots of snow or lots of bumpy off-road... I'd stick with a beam, more reliable.

Other targets for you are: early and current Scion xB, Scion xA... Scion tC if you can afford one (and it doesn't have the awful 2AZ-FE engine -- the later 2AR-FE is the one to have)... manual GE8 Honda Fit, maybe even an older Element or Accord. Toyota Matrix will be rarer than the Corolla but is way more useful and has few showstopper SBs... get the 1.8L if you can get it (2.4L S has the dreaded 2AZ-FE). Good luck!

GolNat

iTrader: (7)

My last experience with Ford involved my wife's 01 or 99 (don't remember, blocked those days out) Escort zx2 with the DOHC engine in it. Riddled with sensor problems and you guessed it, transmission issues. Had the trans rebuild and the guy at the shop when I went and picked it up said "that should last you a while". Sold it a couple months later due to sensor issues and the thing not running right.

I do own a Ford truck but it was free. I can't pass on free, even if it's a Ford. Does have a CEL, but don't Fords come with the CEL on from the factory!?!

See above!

Honda Toyota

All the reliability problems you guys mention about the Focus above...were these Focus' driven hard by young people and modded? I'm just looking for a daily commuter that will be driven easily, never above 65mph on the highway and no modding. Remember, I'm not looking for performance.

kinakoes2

With a SOHC Focus SPI, it doesn't matter... it may grenade on you and cost you an engine or it may not... only it knows. Meanwhile it's got water pump leakage problems due to iffy gaskets on an iffy machined surface, plus an exposed timing belt that can suck in a fragging accessory belt destroyed by its tensioner (happened to me in my Escort).

With a DOHC Focus Zetec... the sensor problems GolNat mentioned, plus the auto trans nonsense make this car a no-go as well...

As a used car buyer, you don't know what the treatment was before you... and being that both of these car's problems as listed above don't even get into modded Zetecs/SPIs... no way would I risk it.

It sounds like you want us to justify a decision already made to get this Focus, to which I say it's always your choice -- just don't say we didn't try to warn you of the risks of that choice.

SyDiko

OP, do NOT buy from a dealer - you will be overpaying for the car.

My car, which I priced at 6 dealers was ~$5200. Through a private party I found 01 Civic Ex for $3500.

Its the same for Corollas as well.

BlueEM2

iTrader: (1)

I think all cars today will be reliable. The reliability problems from the 90s and early 2000s hopefully won't transfer over to now

GolNat

iTrader: (7)

It wasn't modded when we bough it and I didn't do anything to it. It could have been modded and returned to stock though, I am not sure.

I don't baby my Civic per say and it can handle it. College kids that run them low on oil have trouble killing them.

They should be for at least the length of time someone owns a new car. You figure most people end up trading in a car within 3-5 years. That's within the warranty period so if they do have problems they should be covered. Not that I want to spend my time at a dealer dealing with warranty claims.