flatty

I have been having issues with my 01 civic ex overheating. Basically about every 200 or so miles i had to drain the reservoir and put the water back in the radiator because it would eventually blow out. I read here it was likely a head gasket so i took it down and had it leak down tested and tested for exhaust gasses in the radiator and both tests indicated no hg failure so I replaced thermostat and radiator cap. The problem still existed so i changed radiator, still had the issue so i swapped water pump and still had the problem. The fans run and it still overheats.
I had three mechanics telling me it wasn't a head gasket but I still insisted it must be so i put some headgasket sealer garbage in which essentially plugged up everything and made it worse so i took the nuclear option and pulled the motor (180k miles anyway) and replaced it. Replaced the radiator again as well as thermostat because that stuff clogged it all. Pulled head off old motor and it was worn but no indication of headgasket failure visible(didnt send to machine shop)

Anyway new motor in today and driving to work temp starts rising, pull off side of the road and yet again reservoir is full and radiator is not. I am at a loss. I am not a skilled mechanic so this has cost me fortune and still no resolution. Any suggestions?

pjb3

I hate to say it but it sounds like you have another bad head gasket. My suggestion would be that you search this site for Ezone's directions on determining if a head gasket is bad.

The two tests they did to check for a bad head gasket are pretty standard the problem is they don't always show up positive on the Civic. There are many ways a head gasket can fail but the most common in the 7th gen Civic is a small leak between the cylinder and the cooling system. It seems the leak is usually small enough that the only method to reliably detect it is to pressurize each cylinder with 175 psi air and check the neck of the radiator for rising coolant over time. You say the old head showed no sign of head gasket failure but if the leak was small enough you may have missed it.

Unless you are dealing with a mechanic that has worked on a lot of 7th gen Civics I can see where they might not catch this. As you already know, head gasket sealers don't work. The reason is most sealers work by blocking the passage as they flow out. If the leak is higher pressure gas coming in, there is no way for them to seal the leak.

I realize you have spent a lot of money already so at I would once again recommend you read Ezone's discussion of overheating so it makes sense. I would then look for a local mechanic with a lot of Civic experience and discuss diagnosing and repairing the problem with him

flatty

Was afraid you would say something like that. Sadly the only honest Honda mechanic I could ever find in this area retired due to medical issues. I had done many of the tests shown in ezone thread before on the old engine havent tested anything on the new as I just took delivery of it last night and it over heated this morning after driving roughly 40 miles. I say overheated because the heat stopped and the temp rose to 3/4(it came down when I reved it up) once i stopped the reservoir was full but after sitting little bit the radiator sucked it all back in. Is there anything else it could be, just seems like such a perfect storm sort of thing to replace the entire motor and still have the exact same issue I had before the swap(minus the dumb sealer stuff).

ezone

^^^^^^Damn. Did I write that reply?^^^^^^ LOL


Honest is good, and there are plenty of us out there. You have to filter out the rest though, and that isn't always easy because we all look the same to most average people. (Yeah, that might be a stereotype?)

You need one that is competent and diligent.
Not one that shoots from the hip and tosses parts.
One that is open and willing to listen. Learn new things/ideas if need be.
Most of these failures will pass these particular tests.

It's easy to pass a test if you don't use the right test.
A head gasket breach is easy to verify with the right test.

Experience got me to check these with shop air line pressure in the cylinders. It has not failed me yet.


Is the radiator clean and clear for good airflow? Condenser too?
Does the radiator fan run properly? (you said it does, just make sure it turns on at the right temperature after all this is fixed)
It sure seems that most of these engines need a head gasket job sooner or later. I've done head gaskets on these before 50k.

ANY engine you get used is a gamble, and it sounds like you got one that needs a head gasket job.


Here's a freebie check from another post I made at some point:
Or just let the car do it by itself.
Check this thread (2 pages). Toward the end scooty has a video of his head gasket leak in action: Is this Idle behavior normal? Vid included, Redid Thtle Body Clean and Worse Now!



Read this thread too: https://www.civicforums.com/forums/3...-ex-coupe.html

flatty

well I certainly don't have a good feeling about this. I cant really afford a head gasket job($700?) after all of this just somewhat frustrating lol. The radiator is clean(brand new) condenser is clean. Fans do run, new engine had it's sensors included so I assumed that would be fixed I am one of those people that always uses the AC so both fans are always on anyway. I will try to see how the bubbles do when I get the car back later this week. The mechanic is replacing the heater core because he is convinced it is full of all that sealer junk too. I guess I was hoping he just didn't burp the system enough and it caused the overheat today. The temp stays solid at running temp all the way until there is not enough water in the radiator and then it starts rising.

ezone

USED engineAssumed what would be fixed?

These things can be checked before throwing cash at the car. That's an unreal amount of work ($$$$.$$) for just a guess.

That heater core could be plugged solid and it would not have any effect on engine temp.

There is a water valve on those heater hoses that opens and closes coolant flow to the core. There is no bypass, it simply shuts off water flow.


If I thought the heater was a problem, I would have used a garden hose first to check for flow. Then used the same hose to flush it out if possible. In fact, if I had the engine out of the car I might have done this before the engine went back in.



HTH

flatty

sorry yes Used was just a way to separate the former engine from the replacement engine that would be easier to read.


As to what I assumed would be fixed my dad was of the opinion that the fans took a long time to come on which I attributed to the switch by the thermostat and assumed that would have been replaced when the block was replaced. I never gave much credence to this particular issue because it never drives a mile without the air and both engine fans on.

I asked him how the heater core would cause the problem but he seemed convinced enough that he wasn't going to even charge labor so long as i supplied the part so I did.

How much should I expect for a head gasket replacement? The deepest I have ever gone into an engine is the valve cover so I wouldn't feel in any way comfortable attempting it myself.

ezone

I see now.
The fans can take a really long time to run because of where the fan switch is located in the cooling system circuit. If there is any cool breeze blowing through the radiator, it might keep it cool enough to not run the fans at all.


Sounds like you are the smart one.

The entire dash has to come out to change the heater core.


I work for a dealer. You don't want to hear my answer, but it may be less than what you might spend elsewhere. AND it varies, depending on what all has to be done.

frontier2005

I had oversheating issue 3 weeks ago 2005 civic. , leakdown test and compression test all came out good. coolant also coming out from the resevior after 30 miles of driving. I had 145,000 miles. Headgasket fix my overheating, I also did the timing belt since I was there already. I can go another more mile on this car

mikey1

now you know why the motor you bought was replaced, the previous owner of it had the same problems that you did, did the engine come with any warranty? if not, you took a big gamble and lost

flatty

It has a warranty. Just getting him to actually believe the head gasket is the issue seems to be the challenge. The motor was out of a vehicle that was totaled at 62k miles. I got it back last night from the latest attempt by him to fix, sadly I am waiting now for him to realize what every Honda mechanic knows but apparently no other mechanic will believe. Either way it was a losing gamble on my part because it was a used motor.

ezone

2 things to seriously consider:

A) I have done head gaskets on these engines before they reached 50,000 miles. They are a well known problem to those of us that see them all the time.

B) You have no idea what happened before/during/after the crash.

Some people just have no clue that something is drastically wrong unless the car stops moving under its own power. The dash could be lit up like a Christmas tree and they ignore all of it because the car can still move.

"Oh, it's just a little dent in the fender, I can drive it."

I have seen one try to "drive on home, it's only another 20 miles" with the bottom half of the radiator completely missing after a crash. Absolutely ruined the engine, literal meltdown. "It was running fine, then it just stopped and I have no idea what happened."

Another with a major coolant leak, completely empty radiator and the owner knew it: "I only drove it to the mall, it's pretty close." (10 miles each way)

flatty

Oh trust me I don't disbelieve the prognosis, my original reason for the first post was in the hope that it would be something else like air in the system or something after the swap rather than trading one motor with head gasket issues for another with the same issue. My only problem now is to get the guy who replaced the motor to realize the possibility of a head gasket failure causing all this and not some random other part he wants to replace at his expense.

mikey1

good luck....you need it

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

g'luck.
try buying lottery, you got two gaskets in a row maybe you will hit a prize (altho the chances of it happening are quite high, from all the overheat/gasket in the forum...)
(hey, better to have a smile than cry )

flatty

Just curious. How full should that overflow tank get during a drive?

Before the motor swap it would fill up and eventually blow all the water out of the tank and would stay so pressurized it would never suck the water back out of it.

Since he returned it to me again monday it hasn't overheated but...
Now after the swap it fills up but hasn't blown any water out in 200 miles which is unheard of. Soon as the engine is off about 15 mins it sucks the water back into the radiator.

Still doesn't seem right but I am curious how much the tank should fill up on an average 50 mile drive at highway speeds?

I would like him to redo the head gasket to make it right but it seems I have to prove it to him a dozen different ways before he will blah

ezone

It shouldn't fill up completely unless it was overfilled to begin with.

If you fill the reservoir to the FULL COLD (also, might be marked as "low" or "min" on various cars) mark with a cold engine, it should always return to that point when the engine is cold.
(Assuming the rest of the cooling system is properly filled and burped)

+ Heat = Expansion.

The coolant expands as it gets hot, as liquids do. The expansion causes the system to become pressurized (closed cooling system).
The cap vents excess pressure (at about 14 PSI) and lets fluid go into the reservoir. This might raise the level to the FULL HOT (also, "full" or "max") mark.


I have no idea just how much change you can or will see, it varies. But it DOES change.
Big thing is that as long as it isn't leaking out, the level in the reservoir should go back to its starting point when the engine is cooled off again.

ezone

Oh yeah, the fluid level changes occur with engine temperature, not driving distance.

Once the engine and cooling system are up to operating temps, the level in the reservoir should stabilize until the temp changes significantly again.

flatty

Ok thank you again for the great info. Hard to tell on the reservoir tube because the coolant is hard to see through it. It was over the max line so I drained some of it out and put a little more in the radiator to top it off. Am going to haul it back up to the mechanic tomorrow after work so I want to see what the level is when I get there.

Matt_75

I routinely keep mine filled to the max line when the engine is stone cold. When I drive for 20 miles or so and park it, I might open the hood and check fluid levels every couple weeks or so. The coolant level is consistently about an inch and a half to two inches above the max fill line on my car. I have to put a splash of coolant in every few months as I believe some evaporates since it's not a closed/sealed system.

mikey1

with the engine completely cold, i keep the level just about the low or min line, when my engine is fully warm the level goes up about an inch or two, then returns down again when the engine cools down

flatty

Thank you all. Just to update , because I hate when people don't, the mechanic finally conceded that it is a head gasket failure after all. Supposedly the location he got the motor from is swapping it out(since it overheated again) and when he gets the replacement motor he is going to replace the hg before putting it in. What a pain.

ezone

Thank you for that!

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

second above!
thanks, flatty, and good luck, happy it was solved with the culprit clear

abramshe

Before anybody goes to a Mechanic, i recommend using Bar's for any overheating problems.
My 2004 Civic Lx was giving me a problem with the temperature gradually increasing when driving in commercial areas(stop and go traffic with traffic lights)
Before i got the car, it was my mothers car and she had already had the water pump replaced so i knew it wasnt the water pump.
just last week, i had the thermostat changed, thinking that was the problem.
About a week later my car began to heat up and climb whenever i turned the **** to heat. At this point i thought it was the head gasket and i was scared how much money it would run up in a shop. i had to keep my car blowing out cold air so it wouldnt overheat completely. Occasionally, i had to turn the a/c on to cool down the engine.
My dad had told me about how when he had a leak in his cooling system in his ford expedition, he was blowing anti-freeze through his vents and it fogged up his windows.
He said he used Bar's and it fixed the head gasket leak he thought was the problem.
I used Bar's in my civic yesterday and i now have hot air blowing out of my vents and my temperature hasnt moved from where it sat before the car started to give me problems.
So moral of the story, use Bar's first, but Bar's doesnt solve the leak you have, then i recommend you bring your honda to Honda to get it professional done.

pjb3

Worst advice possible. Stop leak plugs some small leaks as well as engine cooling passages.

ezone

Seconded! To an extent. Some sealers can be acceptable in some situations, and my understanding is that most manufacturers do include some in new cars.


If this person used a Sodium Silicate type head gasket sealer, I doubt a real professional with knowledge of that would ever touch it.

It can work, but it's not something that can ever be undone.

lowlife9

the only time i have ever used a stop leak or ever will is if i am driving a **** box car and can care less if it dies or not. basically just to squeeze a few more miles out of before i can get another car.

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

by the time you get to honda, it might be too late for the engine.
the particles can not choose where to deposit themselves - it will deposit all over you cooling system.

Erf_Em2

I'm in a similar situation although I haven't used Bars. I had from when I first purchased my car had issues with antifreeze leaking. I replaced the thermostat a few month ago, yet the problem occurred again. Yesterday I had to pour antifreeze into the reservoir because my windows kept fogging up. There is def a leak. I have to get this checked out ASAP!