analyticalchem

Hey there,

I read up on timing belt replacements on my wife's 2005 EX (automatic, 4-door sedan) on civicforums a few thousand miles ago (at around 110,000 mi). After getting slammed at work for the foreseeable future I decided to just pay to have it done.

I took it to a local shop and they replaced the timing belt, water pump, timing belt tensioner, and they did a tune up with new plugs and wires. Yesterday the car started and then died while my wife was about to leave work. I left work and when I got there I tried to start it again and it wouldn't start. I thought it was the battery from the sound--It wasn't that or the starter.

I got it towed to another shop and the shop owner diagnosed it from the sound as "no compression." He said it was probably the timing belt, he had assumed we hadn't had it replaced. He said I should contact the shop who did the work and work with them. I did and the other shop got the car. They diagnosed it as bent valves (several). They also said nothing was wrong with anything. The belt was fine, timing had not skipped, nothing. The valves "just bent". They did nothing wrong.

They claim this is known to happen. I don't buy it. Thoughts? Is this a bunch of BS?

Also, the car has been maintained pretty well. Normal oil changes, tires, and other fluid changes.

I appreciate anyone with some solid knowledge on this helping me sniff this one out--seems strange to me.

Cheers!

ezone

Bull. Butter.

analyticalchem

So, I take it you think they are trying to get another boat payment out of me on their bad? <-- This is what I think.

If you have any other comments I would really appreciate it. Thanks!

ezone

I assume this is within the last 12 months/12,000 miles (a pretty standard warranty period)?

All it needed was timing belt, accy belt set, and possibly a water pump. The original tensioner usually lasts an easy 200k+ here, so I don't normally recommend replacing it until the next nearest service (people whine about prices too).
I hope the plugs were at least NGK or DENSO, if not the correct NGK or DENSO.
1.7 has C.O.P. ignition.
There are NO plug wires that can be replaced.
Either you are mistaken or you were hosed.
(Or you don't have a US/Canadian market car.)

Does it still start and die?
It runs for exactly 2 seconds and dies?
Or something else?
(More clues)
I'd trust this guy, because I always give the customer that same option when the situation is similar.

Any reputable shop warrants their work, it is spelled out in black and white on real paper. Somewhere. (Our basic warranty terms are printed on the work order you sign before the car rolls through the shop door.)
Anyone that doesn't stand behind their work isn't worth dealing with.
More on this in a sec...


Bull. Butter.

There IS a reason.
And it is a damn good reason.
**** like that doesn't happen on its own for no damn reason.
Maybe they are hoping you aren't smart enough to realize it must be their fault.

Or maybe they have no clue what happened to it. Maybe they don't know what is wrong at all.

Now that they have had the car, nobody else can see the evidence to make any judgement about what REALLY happened.

And your car is now a hostage.





Now, you said this got replaced:
Was this an aftermarket part, or a factory part?
Aftermarket units are known to fail prematurely.
The timing belt jumps teeth when it loses the tensioner pulley spring.
It jumps time. Loses sync. Whatever you want to call it.
More than about 3 teeth out is dangerous territory.

I saw a video a couple days ago about an aftermarket water pump on a CRV that had the pulley separate and come apart.
But
I'm betting the cheap aftermarket tensioner unit failed.
Jumped time = Bent valves
$$$$$$$$
Non-reputable shop (or mechanic) can't admit fault and step up....Doesn't have to be a workmanship problem, it can be their choice of parts that got used, but it is ALL their baby......You lose.

ezone

Dele

scooty

I'm really sorry to say this but the first shop really messed it up. You gave them a functioning engine with a worn timing belt they gave you back the same engine with a new belt that subsequently either slipped or snapped and bent the valves. It does not just happen. Bent valves are a symptom of broken or slipped timing belt that in your case points only to installation error or defective parts. Take it back and fight it out, they owe you.

P.S. They charged you for plug AND wires? what wires? These cars have coil on plugs, they don't use spark plug wires. So have them remove that charge too.

mikey1

they screwed the job up big time, no question about it

valves do not "just bend" on thier own, they bent when a piston hits them, the only way a piston can hit a valve is by the timing belt breaking, coming loose, or skipping teeth, and you just had the belt replaced?

lets put two and two together here, we all know what it adds up to.....

ezone

One would think so, but one might be sadly mistaken.


"No Child Left Behind" FTW!

analyticalchem

ezone and everyone,

Still within 12 months/12K. The tensioner was aftermarket (I am starting to think it was this too). Also, I have no idea what plugs they used. Next, the wires I am probably imagining--I was looking for the invoice so I didn't make a mistake like this, but I didn't find before posting (You are right). Also, the car started for like 2 seconds and then died. Then, the car wouldn't start again--and was subsequently diagnosed as "no compression".

Thanks to all for helping solidify my opinion that this is BS. I'm calling them first thing this morning. If I get anywhere I will update you all.

Thanks again!

mikey1

unfortunely you have made a big mistake by taking it back to the original shop, you should have had a third party (the second shop) pull the timing cover to inspect and diagnose the problem, they would have no reason to be dishonest about it,

i am sure they would have found a mangled timing belt under the cover, or at the very least a loose belt that has "skipped time", they could have taken pictures for you and even testified in court against the original shop on your behalf,

even if you had to pay them to do the inspection, it would be alot cheaper than the repairs you are going to now need,

you have now given the original shop the opportunity to cover their tracks, and hide the evidence, they are going to take that ball and run with it,

so here is whats going to happen,

they are going to put ANOTHER new timing belt on the engine, line up the timing marks, install the belt correctly this time, then say to you "see the timing belt is fine, we did our job correctly", while talking out of their rear ends,

you now have no recourse against them,

get the car out of there, you dont want them touching it any more, they are incompetent and dishonest,

you are now unfortunately going to have to suck it up and pay for an expensive cylinder head job, or a new/used engine,

you dont want the same shop doing that work when they couldnt even do a timing belt properly, hell, i have done BOTH jobs in my driveway and im not even a liscensed mechanic,

the timing belt on these engines should only be serviced by the dealer, there is a specific method that needs to be followed when installing and setting the tensioner, most independent shops do not know about this,

i am curious how many miles have you put on the car since the timing belt job?

ezone

No, just need someone that can read and follow some simple directions.


Good info on the rest of your post. +1 for you.

CraigW

iTrader: (1)

The 3rd party tensioner sounds frightning.

mikey1

thanks....i try my best

mikey1

not really....it depends on the brand....there are aftermarket tensioners just as good as OEM or even better, NSK would be one,

regardless of that, i would find it hard to believe that a failed tensioner caused this after such low mileage, i would bet the bank on an installation error

revr63ed7

Good choice, factory are nsk in many hondas, my d17 was but i can't say they all are.

ezone

Counterfeit parts are HUGE problem and WAY too common.

http://www.stopfakebearings.com/#/terms_and_conditions

http://www.bearingbay.com/blog/nsk-b...erfeiting.html

http://nskeurope.com/cps/rde/xchg/eu...unterfeit.html

https://www.civicforums.com/forums/3...ml#post4622345


HTH

analyticalchem

All,

Thank you for the information--you have saved me a lot of money.

The day after getting feedback from all of you (and 3 honda dealerships and an independent garage from the area) I left the shop a voicemail detailing what I had learned. I told them I thought they were being dishonest and that they had covered up their error. I told them I had talked to many mechanics and the consensus was that they had screwed up.

Initially, they lowered the cost of the whole service from $2000 to $1000. This included the following:

New Honda Head
Camshaft
Rocker shafts
Arms
Valves
Guides
Springs
Seals
Spark Pluds
Alternator AC Belt
Power steering belt
Timing Component Kit
Coolant
Oil change
Head Bolt Set/Washers
Head Gasket set
Valve cover gasket
tube seals
O-rings for injectors
Collant Pipes
water outlet gasket
cam seal and plug
intake o-rings and gasket
exhaust gasket
throttle body gasket
35 mile tow

After much going back and forth, I got them to get it to $500. Although I should not have had to pay anything--I didn't get as bent over as I would have.

Thank you all!

Aetoc

iTrader: (1)

Glad to see you got this resolved, or at least, are getting it resolved!

Stock 99

Right on. glad you got some satisfaction.

The only thing I can say is if it were me I wouldn't want them doing anymore work on my car.

Not so much because there may have been some sort of failure that may or may not have been their fault but because they tried to make you believe that valves can just randomly bend.

ezone

Did the shop say what the root cause of this failure was?


Glad it is getting resolved, but if this timing kit is aftermarket again, you might be facing the exact same dilemma in another 3000 miles.

I insist on OEM for most critical parts, especially when the life of the engine is at stake (or a pile of money).

They owed you a running car. You should not be paying for their mistakes.

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

i have to agree that they should be paying for all, especially after saying that all was correct and valves bend by them selves...
do believe you are like me, no hassles are worth...
glad you having it fixed, though...

pjb3

I find the list interesting. I have never had a timing belt fail on my Civic and even if I had, not all failure will damage the same parts.
New head sounds unlikely, most rebuild the old. Cam, rocker shaft and springs damage possible but unlikely. Ezone can give you a much better idea which of those items are likely to be required and which were the guy padding his bill.

My guess is that in dropping the price from $2000 to $500 some of these things are going to get skipped. If he re-uses the spark plugs or accessory belts will you really know? If he cuts some of the things on the list he can probably do the the job for $500 without losing much money. I would ask for all parts that are replaced and for the packaging for all the new parts.

mikey1

yeah i kind of agree,

i mean a "timing component kit" is really just a timing belt and a tensioner, they already replaced the tensioner, so if that was not the cause of this (which i doubt, i still say installation error) then they will not replace the tensioner again,

they will obviously need to replace the belt because chances are it was mangled beyond recognition, but thats cheap

they are obviously going to use the cheapest parts possible to get this car running and out the door, i wouldnt want this same shop working on it again,

damage to the rocker arms and cam are very unlikely, they will just need to replace a few valves as nessessary,

im not sure what "coolant pipes" refers to, do they mean hoses?

ezone

It would START with pulling the valve cover and timing covers, to see the extent of the damage.
Probably 8 or 16 valves, a head gasket set, and whatever timing components that failed. And fluids. Everything else probably gets reused, depending on circumstances.

Machine shop reports on the guides once it is apart. Probably fine.


IF the OP is buying, they are replacing with a brand new head?
New Honda Head
Camshaft
Rocker shafts
Arms
Valves
Guides
Springs
Seals
No. A brand new cylinder head from Honda, relatively complete is about $3200.
IF the shop is eating the repair, it might get a used head, complete. From a boneyard.
Guarantee that it will be done as cheap as they can figure out how to do it.
Probably have the lowest paid rookie doing the work too.

Here it would get a set of valves and stuffed back together, but it would be by the person that did the job the first time (unless that person really screwed it up and has no busin.........NVM.)

Much of their parts list is overlapping. Some is plain unnecessary (TB gasket?). Several of the listed gaskets already come in a head set. Some should have JUST been done as part of the timing belt job (accy belts).

ezone

Stripped out the bolt hole in the block? Broke off the bolt?
$25.00 from Honda.
I wouldn't want them touching it NOW either.
Agreed.
Who knows. If the customer doesn't know to question it, they can rack up all kinds of bogus fees.

Matt_75

This nightmare thread(shotty shop) is exactly why I'm glad I can do most of the work on my own vehicle. The only repair I wouldn't attempt is the trans solely because I just don't have the required tools/space to do it. And if I needed a trans I'd take it to a dealership and get a reman and a warranty from them.