ARE STAINLESS STEEL BRAKE LINES BAD for ABS???
02-09-2009
#1
Banished to the Depths of Rice.
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: SoCal 714/909/626
Posts: 9,196
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Rep Power: 328 
ARE STAINLESS STEEL BRAKE LINES BAD for ABS??? according to me. no... if you buy from a good brand, like russell..etc (no eGAY crap) i have only heard of wonderful good things about them.
i asked this because i got some Russell for my GF's 2000 honda accord EX (and myself as well, its coming in the mail. they are the "street legal DOT approved ones, not the COMPETITION ones)...
she later asked her friend at church (who is a graduate from UTI and is an ex-toyota mechanic, a ricer, swapped and boosted k20 member, integra) says that they will compromise the ABS system of her car and all cars with ABS in general when putting on STAINLESS STEEL BRAKE LINES.
here is a direct text he sent her:
"steel lines are good but they will mess with your abs system..like because of the greater braking power the abs computer wont react the same and you'll have the chance of locking up the wheels in slippery conditions. which doenst matter to racers and such but you mite want your abs. mine is disabled. hahha...mmm.. it wont eliminate abs completely.. i dont think...well.. abs wont work as well as they were designed to but will work to an extent depending on road conditions"
now, i want to know if this is some BS he pulled out of his *** or what?
please, i want some insights on this from PEOPLE WHO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT, and not just some "i think... or in my opinion..."
(sorry if i come off hard, i just need some real legit facts and answers, and im sure a lot of you want to as well)
thx a bunch.
james
i asked this because i got some Russell for my GF's 2000 honda accord EX (and myself as well, its coming in the mail. they are the "street legal DOT approved ones, not the COMPETITION ones)...
she later asked her friend at church (who is a graduate from UTI and is an ex-toyota mechanic, a ricer, swapped and boosted k20 member, integra) says that they will compromise the ABS system of her car and all cars with ABS in general when putting on STAINLESS STEEL BRAKE LINES.
here is a direct text he sent her:
"steel lines are good but they will mess with your abs system..like because of the greater braking power the abs computer wont react the same and you'll have the chance of locking up the wheels in slippery conditions. which doenst matter to racers and such but you mite want your abs. mine is disabled. hahha...mmm.. it wont eliminate abs completely.. i dont think...well.. abs wont work as well as they were designed to but will work to an extent depending on road conditions"
now, i want to know if this is some BS he pulled out of his *** or what?
please, i want some insights on this from PEOPLE WHO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT, and not just some "i think... or in my opinion..."
(sorry if i come off hard, i just need some real legit facts and answers, and im sure a lot of you want to as well)
thx a bunch.
james
Last edited by sl33pyriceboi; 02-09-2009 at 02:50 AM.
02-09-2009
#2
Banished to the Depths of Rice.
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: SoCal 714/909/626
Posts: 9,196
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Rep Power: 328 Re: ARE STAINLESS STEEL BRAKE LINES BAD for ABS???
btw, i cant see how this would hinder a car's braking if the DOT (department of transportation) has approved this item
like for example they meet DOT requirements of FMVSS-571.106 (and 50 state street legal)
like for example they meet DOT requirements of FMVSS-571.106 (and 50 state street legal)
02-09-2009
#3
Banished to the Depths of Rice.
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: SoCal 714/909/626
Posts: 9,196
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Rep Power: 328 Re: ARE STAINLESS STEEL BRAKE LINES BAD for ABS???
oh and yes, i have SEARCHED google, and as well as forums after forums
the only bad thing ive found was that cheap ebay stainless steel are cheaply made and they dont flex very well. (thus i bought russell)
the only bad thing ive found was that cheap ebay stainless steel are cheaply made and they dont flex very well. (thus i bought russell)
Last edited by sl33pyriceboi; 02-09-2009 at 03:00 AM.
02-09-2009
#4
Registered!!
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: northern, virgina
Age: 32
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rep Power: 0 
Re: ARE STAINLESS STEEL BRAKE LINES BAD for ABS???
the only way i can see that it messes up the abs is by the lines are stiffer and i think the standard abs is programed to work well with line strech when it pumps the expanding line so it would probably be alot stronger abs. but realy who needs abs its useless unless its a truck. nyways again it would cause the lines to less expand their for causing the abs to more "strong" i guess
lol
02-09-2009
#7
Registered!!
iTrader: (11)
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Lakewood, 562
Age: 41
Posts: 4,576
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rep Power: 296 Re: ARE STAINLESS STEEL BRAKE LINES BAD for ABS???
i think the best person to ask is PM boiler maker and posting this in the brakes forums. I think the text doesn't make sense on the greater braking power messing up the abs.
If you went by that logic, wouldn't larger brake rotors and better brake pads mess up the abs as well?
If you went by that logic, wouldn't larger brake rotors and better brake pads mess up the abs as well?
Last edited by TemjinX2; 02-09-2009 at 10:42 AM.
02-09-2009
#8
Premium Member
Hey! Look At Me!! I'm a Supporting Member!!
iTrader: (95)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: NV
Age: 43
Posts: 51,241
Likes: 0
Received 18 Likes
on
13 Posts
Rep Power: 787 Re: ARE STAINLESS STEEL BRAKE LINES BAD for ABS???
the abs uses SENSORS to figure out when to engage. they will see the "higher pressure" and adjust accordingly. if anything, the rubber hoses are making the abs system work WORSE than how it should be. youre just fixing a design flaw by adding stainless lines. this is just another case of honda choosing the "overall value" material called rubber. rubber stretches and expands and breaks. while its good enough to get the job done, more or less, it wears out and expands over time. this isnt really ideal for things like bushings, brake lines, etc.
here read this faq i just found. basically adding stainless lines will just cause a faster braking response, making the pedal a bit firmer instead of mushy.
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp...teel_Q&A.shtml
"What impacts will SS lines have on my vehicle's P-T (pressure vs. torque) relationship?
None. Because brake lines and hoses do not affect the torque generated at the wheel end, the P-T relationship remains unchanged when SS lines are installed. Only changes to a vehicle's caliper, rotor, or brake pad coefficient of friction will impact the P-T relationship."
"However, because the P-T relationship remains unchanged with SS lines, the impact to ABS, TCS, and other brake control systems is typically negligible."
here read this faq i just found. basically adding stainless lines will just cause a faster braking response, making the pedal a bit firmer instead of mushy.
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp...teel_Q&A.shtml
"What impacts will SS lines have on my vehicle's P-T (pressure vs. torque) relationship?
None. Because brake lines and hoses do not affect the torque generated at the wheel end, the P-T relationship remains unchanged when SS lines are installed. Only changes to a vehicle's caliper, rotor, or brake pad coefficient of friction will impact the P-T relationship."
"However, because the P-T relationship remains unchanged with SS lines, the impact to ABS, TCS, and other brake control systems is typically negligible."
Last edited by gearbox; 02-09-2009 at 10:47 AM.
02-09-2009
#10
Banished to the Depths of Rice.
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: SoCal 714/909/626
Posts: 9,196
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Rep Power: 328 Re: ARE STAINLESS STEEL BRAKE LINES BAD for ABS???
the abs uses SENSORS to figure out when to engage. they will see the "higher pressure" and adjust accordingly. if anything, the rubber hoses are making the abs system work WORSE than how it should be. youre just fixing a design flaw by adding stainless lines. this is just another case of honda choosing the "overall value" material called rubber. rubber stretches and expands and breaks. while its good enough to get the job done, more or less, it wears out and expands over time. this isnt really ideal for things like bushings, brake lines, etc.
here read this faq i just found. basically adding stainless lines will just cause a faster braking response, making the pedal a bit firmer instead of mushy.
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp...teel_Q&A.shtml
"What impacts will SS lines have on my vehicle's P-T (pressure vs. torque) relationship?
None. Because brake lines and hoses do not affect the torque generated at the wheel end, the P-T relationship remains unchanged when SS lines are installed. Only changes to a vehicle's caliper, rotor, or brake pad coefficient of friction will impact the P-T relationship."
"However, because the P-T relationship remains unchanged with SS lines, the impact to ABS, TCS, and other brake control systems is typically negligible."
here read this faq i just found. basically adding stainless lines will just cause a faster braking response, making the pedal a bit firmer instead of mushy.
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp...teel_Q&A.shtml
"What impacts will SS lines have on my vehicle's P-T (pressure vs. torque) relationship?
None. Because brake lines and hoses do not affect the torque generated at the wheel end, the P-T relationship remains unchanged when SS lines are installed. Only changes to a vehicle's caliper, rotor, or brake pad coefficient of friction will impact the P-T relationship."
"However, because the P-T relationship remains unchanged with SS lines, the impact to ABS, TCS, and other brake control systems is typically negligible."
yes =] thank you.
02-09-2009
#11
Premium Member
Hey! Look At Me!! I'm a Supporting Member!!
iTrader: (95)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: NV
Age: 43
Posts: 51,241
Likes: 0
Received 18 Likes
on
13 Posts
Rep Power: 787 Re: ARE STAINLESS STEEL BRAKE LINES BAD for ABS???
alot of people just talk to say something. most of the time they have no idea wtf is going on lol
02-09-2009
#12
Banished to the Depths of Rice.
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: SoCal 714/909/626
Posts: 9,196
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Rep Power: 328 Re: ARE STAINLESS STEEL BRAKE LINES BAD for ABS???
^x2 yea i figured.....just kinda disapointed he said that....cuz he isnt exactly a everyday dumb mech...
02-09-2009
#17
Jap-Euro Fusion
Hey! Look At Me!! I'm a Supporting Member!!
iTrader: (16)
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Washington DC
Age: 41
Posts: 13,151
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
3 Posts
Rep Power: 399 Re: ARE STAINLESS STEEL BRAKE LINES BAD for ABS???
I dont buy it.
The abs sensor measures the rotation of the hub. It counts the number of rotations per a given amount of time. The computer compares the count from all 4 wheels and its looking for a discrepancy. For example, if the brakes are applied and the front wheels are not rotating, and the rears are rotating at 100 revs per minute, then it'll trip the ABS. The threshold difference in rotations is usually something preprogrammed into the system, some cars will trip ABS more easily (and frequenly) than others. The ABS system (at least in this car) could care less what the line pressure is (in cars with electronic brake force distribution, it may make a difference, but it would depend on how the system is programmed and what it measures to determine the distribution proportions). Obviously nothing happens when the brakes arent applied.
Also, if you use stainless lines, the pressure is NOT increased. The master cylinder still pushes just as hard... with less expansion in the lines, there is less pressure loss along the way. This has absolutely no effect on the ABS system, since all it does is apply and remove the pressure in the line (thats the pulsation) without input from your right foot.
As is the usual with brakes.... the single most important thing in braking response is the tire. The better the tire, the harder you can brake without causing lockup.
The abs sensor measures the rotation of the hub. It counts the number of rotations per a given amount of time. The computer compares the count from all 4 wheels and its looking for a discrepancy. For example, if the brakes are applied and the front wheels are not rotating, and the rears are rotating at 100 revs per minute, then it'll trip the ABS. The threshold difference in rotations is usually something preprogrammed into the system, some cars will trip ABS more easily (and frequenly) than others. The ABS system (at least in this car) could care less what the line pressure is (in cars with electronic brake force distribution, it may make a difference, but it would depend on how the system is programmed and what it measures to determine the distribution proportions). Obviously nothing happens when the brakes arent applied.
Also, if you use stainless lines, the pressure is NOT increased. The master cylinder still pushes just as hard... with less expansion in the lines, there is less pressure loss along the way. This has absolutely no effect on the ABS system, since all it does is apply and remove the pressure in the line (thats the pulsation) without input from your right foot.
As is the usual with brakes.... the single most important thing in braking response is the tire. The better the tire, the harder you can brake without causing lockup.
02-09-2009
#19
Registered!!
iTrader: (11)
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Lakewood, 562
Age: 41
Posts: 4,576
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rep Power: 296 Re: ARE STAINLESS STEEL BRAKE LINES BAD for ABS???
I dont buy it.
The abs sensor measures the rotation of the hub. It counts the number of rotations per a given amount of time. The computer compares the count from all 4 wheels and its looking for a discrepancy. For example, if the brakes are applied and the front wheels are not rotating, and the rears are rotating at 100 revs per minute, then it'll trip the ABS. The threshold difference in rotations is usually something preprogrammed into the system, some cars will trip ABS more easily (and frequenly) than others. The ABS system (at least in this car) could care less what the line pressure is (in cars with electronic brake force distribution, it may make a difference, but it would depend on how the system is programmed and what it measures to determine the distribution proportions). Obviously nothing happens when the brakes arent applied.
Also, if you use stainless lines, the pressure is NOT increased. The master cylinder still pushes just as hard... with less expansion in the lines, there is less pressure loss along the way. This has absolutely no effect on the ABS system, since all it does is apply and remove the pressure in the line (thats the pulsation) without input from your right foot.
As is the usual with brakes.... the single most important thing in braking response is the tire. The better the tire, the harder you can brake without causing lockup.
The abs sensor measures the rotation of the hub. It counts the number of rotations per a given amount of time. The computer compares the count from all 4 wheels and its looking for a discrepancy. For example, if the brakes are applied and the front wheels are not rotating, and the rears are rotating at 100 revs per minute, then it'll trip the ABS. The threshold difference in rotations is usually something preprogrammed into the system, some cars will trip ABS more easily (and frequenly) than others. The ABS system (at least in this car) could care less what the line pressure is (in cars with electronic brake force distribution, it may make a difference, but it would depend on how the system is programmed and what it measures to determine the distribution proportions). Obviously nothing happens when the brakes arent applied.
Also, if you use stainless lines, the pressure is NOT increased. The master cylinder still pushes just as hard... with less expansion in the lines, there is less pressure loss along the way. This has absolutely no effect on the ABS system, since all it does is apply and remove the pressure in the line (thats the pulsation) without input from your right foot.
As is the usual with brakes.... the single most important thing in braking response is the tire. The better the tire, the harder you can brake without causing lockup.
great info...always good to hear from the veteran members.
02-09-2009
#20
Banished to the Depths of Rice.
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: SoCal 714/909/626
Posts: 9,196
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Rep Power: 328 Re: ARE STAINLESS STEEL BRAKE LINES BAD for ABS???
thankx boilermarker1! i can rest in peace now.....and not being so agitated about this mech's stupidity.
02-09-2009
#21
Premium Member
Hey! Look At Me!! I'm a Supporting Member!!
iTrader: (25)
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Orange County, CA (714)
Age: 38
Posts: 1,834
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rep Power: 275 Re: ARE STAINLESS STEEL BRAKE LINES BAD for ABS???
Dude Gear I gotta say one thing about you constantly saying that Honda takes the cheap way out... Nearly EVERY mass produced car uses rubber brake lines and bushings. Honestly there is nothing wrong with rubber (except for compliance bushings). Ive seen an 83 Toyota Celica and the factory rubber brake lines where still in decent condition. So dont tell me that they are constantly going cheap. Rubber lines work and do last.
02-09-2009
#22
Premium Member
Hey! Look At Me!! I'm a Supporting Member!!
iTrader: (95)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: NV
Age: 43
Posts: 51,241
Likes: 0
Received 18 Likes
on
13 Posts
Rep Power: 787 Re: ARE STAINLESS STEEL BRAKE LINES BAD for ABS???
i guess it came out wrong then. what i meant is that usually many car manufacturers, including honda, use "medium grade parts" (i never said cheap) to keep the overall cost of the car down. it wouldnt make any sense to use the best materials for an economy car nor would i want them to, otherwise it wouldnt be affordable. im just pointing out that in alot of cases, there is a better performing material/part out there. otherwise you would have no aftermarket.
02-09-2009
#23
Premium Member
Hey! Look At Me!! I'm a Supporting Member!!
iTrader: (25)
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Orange County, CA (714)
Age: 38
Posts: 1,834
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rep Power: 275 Re: ARE STAINLESS STEEL BRAKE LINES BAD for ABS???
Sounds a lot more like how I think lol. Im all about upgrading performance but that doesnt mean stock parts are bad.
02-10-2009
#28
Autocross Junky
Hey! Look At Me!! I'm a Supporting Member!!
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Age: 45
Posts: 7,211
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rep Power: 356 Re: ARE STAINLESS STEEL BRAKE LINES BAD for ABS???
SS brake lines, like every one else has told you, will not influence the operation of an ABS system. But not because of what you've been told.
ABS systems don't watch line pressure, it donesn't watch caliper pressure or clamp load, it doesn't even keep track of Master cylinder pressure or brake pedal pressure...
It just watches wheel speeds.
And when it "sees" one of the wheels slowing at a greater rate then the others and exceeding its set maximum G deceleration... then it knows somethings wrong and acts.
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp...rakekits.shtml
Backin up boilermaker here
ABS systems don't watch line pressure, it donesn't watch caliper pressure or clamp load, it doesn't even keep track of Master cylinder pressure or brake pedal pressure...
It just watches wheel speeds.
And when it "sees" one of the wheels slowing at a greater rate then the others and exceeding its set maximum G deceleration... then it knows somethings wrong and acts.
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp...rakekits.shtml
Backin up boilermaker here
