Tricks to increase Civic MPG?
10-10-2008
#91
Premium Member
Hey! Look At Me!! I'm a Supporting Member!!
iTrader: (95)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: NV
Age: 43
Posts: 51,241
Likes: 0
Received 18 Likes
on
13 Posts
Rep Power: 787 
Re: Tricks to increase Civic MPG?
i get 42 mpg in the summer, and 32 in the winter on highways. and you have it completely backwards. colder air has more oxygen molecules per cubic inch, hot air has much less. so in winter you have alot more oxygen coming in the engine, the sensors see this, and add more fuel to compensate. in the summer, oxygen content per unit volume is less, ecu sees this, and injects less fuel to get the ideal ratio.
10-10-2008
#92
^Warranty voider
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Gainesville, Your college town is weak.
Age: 39
Posts: 821
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Rep Power: 198 Re: Tricks to increase Civic MPG?
if cold air has more molecules per cubic inch then wouldn't you have more oxygen molecules to burn in a much smaller volume? If you have a cubic liter of cold air (not oxygen alone) and a cubic liter of hot air wouldn't the cubic liter of cold air have more oxygen molecules than the hot air? Wouldn't that mean that the engine would need less air volume to get more oxygen? more air with less or equal amount of draw? humid air has even less capacity for combustion than dry air so generally when its summer in most places and humid you would get worse gas mileage wouldn't you?
Last edited by Running Riot; 10-10-2008 at 11:34 AM.
10-10-2008
#93
Premium Member
Hey! Look At Me!! I'm a Supporting Member!!
iTrader: (95)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: NV
Age: 43
Posts: 51,241
Likes: 0
Received 18 Likes
on
13 Posts
Rep Power: 787 Re: Tricks to increase Civic MPG?
the engine is an air pump, it doesnt care how much oxygen is in the air, it just sucks it in. then the computer gets to deal with oxygen and fuel mixes. humid air yeah, generally you will make more power with dry air but thats due to having less moisture (engines dont like water vaper). also at sea level you will have more power because at higher elevation, air is much thinner with less oxygen. this is why its also harder to breathe in the mountains.
10-10-2008
#94
^Warranty voider
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Gainesville, Your college town is weak.
Age: 39
Posts: 821
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Rep Power: 198 Re: Tricks to increase Civic MPG?
wait?
but then
so what your saying is you get less mpg when its hot because there is less oxygen to burn meaning the engine adds less fuel meaning greater efficiency. But then you said that the engine doesn't care how much oxygen is in the air?
This is what doesn't make sense to me. (hypothetically speaking) Say it takes a 55 hp to push a civic up a hill. Say it takes a 14:1 (stoich) a/f mixture to produce this amount of hp (completely hypothetical but follow me on this). Say, the ambient temp is 98 degrees, and your engine breathes (again hypothetically) 1 mole of air per cycle. There is less oxygen particles (which your engine needs for combustion) in hot air (because as we all know hot air is less dense). So to produce 55 hp at 98 degree you need 14 parts of air per every 1 part of fuel.
Now the same scenario only the ambient temp is now 35 degrees. You vehicle needs 55 hp to move up a hill and it still intakes 1 mole of air per cycle, would there not be more OXYGEN in the air because cold air is denser? So if the incoming 1 mole of 35 degree air is denser than the 98 degree air, would that mean there is more OXYGEN molecules in that 1 mole of air? And because your engine requires OXYGEN for combustion, and its getting more OXYGEN molecules with the same amount of air, then would the vehicle not produce the same amount of work (hp) with less cold air than it would with more hot air? Would that not mean it is burning OXYGEN more efficiently? If the engine is burning OXYGEN more efficiently would it not mean the ECU would adjust the mixture to a LEANER mixture rather than a RICHER mixture because it has more oxygen to burn?
Hence, am i correct in hypothesizing that Cold air is denser than warm air and holds slightly more O2? Air contains 78% nitrogen molecules (N2), 21% oxygen (O2), and trace elements. The molecular weight of N2 is 28 (2 atoms of atomic weight 14), and that of O2 is 32 (2 atoms of atomic weight 16). H2O molecules have a molecular weight of 18 (one O atom with atomic weight of 16, and two H atoms each with atomic weight of 1). This is lighter than both the N2 and the O2 molecules. As Avogadro showed, the number of molecules in a given volume of gas at the same temp and pressure stays the same. Thus, in humid air, the water vapor molecules replace some of the N2 and O2 molecules, decreasing the density of the air. Note that the H2O molecules that make air humid isn't liquid. It's water vapor, which is a gas.
^ thats the thermodynamics of it right? we're talking about fuel efficiency. If colder air is denser and all the above is true then aren't you doing more work with less energy? I mean yeah if the sensors pick up more oxygen its going to spit more fuel but again, it's easier for the engine to do work right?
then theres the less restriction in an open element filter over the maze of plastic the factory has....
if im wrong on something let me know i'm trying to understand myself maybe there's something im missing, keep this going its getting interesting
i get 42 mpg in the summer, and 32 in the winter on highways. and you have it completely backwards. colder air has more oxygen molecules per cubic inch, hot air has much less. so in winter you have alot more oxygen coming in the engine, the sensors see this, and add more fuel to compensate. in the summer, oxygen content per unit volume is less, ecu sees this, and injects less fuel to get the ideal ratio.
the engine is an air pump, it doesnt care how much oxygen is in the air, it just sucks it in. then the computer gets to deal with oxygen and fuel mixes. humid air yeah, generally you will make more power with dry air but thats due to having less moisture (engines dont like water vaper). also at sea level you will have more power because at higher elevation, air is much thinner with less oxygen. this is why its also harder to breathe in the mountains.
__________________
__________________
This is what doesn't make sense to me. (hypothetically speaking) Say it takes a 55 hp to push a civic up a hill. Say it takes a 14:1 (stoich) a/f mixture to produce this amount of hp (completely hypothetical but follow me on this). Say, the ambient temp is 98 degrees, and your engine breathes (again hypothetically) 1 mole of air per cycle. There is less oxygen particles (which your engine needs for combustion) in hot air (because as we all know hot air is less dense). So to produce 55 hp at 98 degree you need 14 parts of air per every 1 part of fuel.
Now the same scenario only the ambient temp is now 35 degrees. You vehicle needs 55 hp to move up a hill and it still intakes 1 mole of air per cycle, would there not be more OXYGEN in the air because cold air is denser? So if the incoming 1 mole of 35 degree air is denser than the 98 degree air, would that mean there is more OXYGEN molecules in that 1 mole of air? And because your engine requires OXYGEN for combustion, and its getting more OXYGEN molecules with the same amount of air, then would the vehicle not produce the same amount of work (hp) with less cold air than it would with more hot air? Would that not mean it is burning OXYGEN more efficiently? If the engine is burning OXYGEN more efficiently would it not mean the ECU would adjust the mixture to a LEANER mixture rather than a RICHER mixture because it has more oxygen to burn?
Hence, am i correct in hypothesizing that Cold air is denser than warm air and holds slightly more O2? Air contains 78% nitrogen molecules (N2), 21% oxygen (O2), and trace elements. The molecular weight of N2 is 28 (2 atoms of atomic weight 14), and that of O2 is 32 (2 atoms of atomic weight 16). H2O molecules have a molecular weight of 18 (one O atom with atomic weight of 16, and two H atoms each with atomic weight of 1). This is lighter than both the N2 and the O2 molecules. As Avogadro showed, the number of molecules in a given volume of gas at the same temp and pressure stays the same. Thus, in humid air, the water vapor molecules replace some of the N2 and O2 molecules, decreasing the density of the air. Note that the H2O molecules that make air humid isn't liquid. It's water vapor, which is a gas.
^ thats the thermodynamics of it right? we're talking about fuel efficiency. If colder air is denser and all the above is true then aren't you doing more work with less energy? I mean yeah if the sensors pick up more oxygen its going to spit more fuel but again, it's easier for the engine to do work right?
then theres the less restriction in an open element filter over the maze of plastic the factory has....
if im wrong on something let me know i'm trying to understand myself maybe there's something im missing, keep this going its getting interesting
10-10-2008
#95
^Warranty voider
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Gainesville, Your college town is weak.
Age: 39
Posts: 821
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Rep Power: 198 Re: Tricks to increase Civic MPG?
i forgot, if theres less oxygen to burn and your spitting less fuel, doesn't it mean the engine is working less because there's weaker combustion with less oxygen? if an engine is working less to push the same amount of weight then doesn't it have to work harder to do the same amount of work?
10-11-2008
#96
Registered!!
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Reno, NV
Age: 41
Posts: 1,255
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rep Power: 242 Re: Tricks to increase Civic MPG?
Factual information that actual make sense...steering away from the damned mainstream media and their biased views.
I hate Joe Biden!! Joe Biden’s New World Order Speech (kind of off-topic.. I know)
I hate Joe Biden!! Joe Biden’s New World Order Speech (kind of off-topic.. I know)
10-11-2008
#97
Registered!!
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Reno, NV
Age: 41
Posts: 1,255
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rep Power: 242 Re: Tricks to increase Civic MPG?
more hp = more air and more fuel. fact. if you have a filter that brings more air in the engine, then the ecu will inject more fuel to get the correct ratio. same reason why in winter the car feels more powerful, but your gas mileage sucks due to all the dense air coming in and the extra fuel being burnt. in summer, air is less dense and therefore less fuel is injected, and the car feels slower. conventional oil with LC20 easily lasts 10k with lab tests to prove it. but oil filters i know of never last more than 6k miles.
10-11-2008
#98
Registered!!
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Reno, NV
Age: 41
Posts: 1,255
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rep Power: 242 Re: Tricks to increase Civic MPG?
wait?
but then
so what your saying is you get less mpg when its hot because there is less oxygen to burn meaning the engine adds less fuel meaning greater efficiency. But then you said that the engine doesn't care how much oxygen is in the air?
This is what doesn't make sense to me. (hypothetically speaking) Say it takes a 55 hp to push a civic up a hill. Say it takes a 14:1 (stoich) a/f mixture to produce this amount of hp (completely hypothetical but follow me on this). Say, the ambient temp is 98 degrees, and your engine breathes (again hypothetically) 1 mole of air per cycle. There is less oxygen particles (which your engine needs for combustion) in hot air (because as we all know hot air is less dense). So to produce 55 hp at 98 degree you need 14 parts of air per every 1 part of fuel.
Now the same scenario only the ambient temp is now 35 degrees. You vehicle needs 55 hp to move up a hill and it still intakes 1 mole of air per cycle, would there not be more OXYGEN in the air because cold air is denser? So if the incoming 1 mole of 35 degree air is denser than the 98 degree air, would that mean there is more OXYGEN molecules in that 1 mole of air? And because your engine requires OXYGEN for combustion, and its getting more OXYGEN molecules with the same amount of air, then would the vehicle not produce the same amount of work (hp) with less cold air than it would with more hot air? Would that not mean it is burning OXYGEN more efficiently? If the engine is burning OXYGEN more efficiently would it not mean the ECU would adjust the mixture to a LEANER mixture rather than a RICHER mixture because it has more oxygen to burn?
Hence, am i correct in hypothesizing that Cold air is denser than warm air and holds slightly more O2? Air contains 78% nitrogen molecules (N2), 21% oxygen (O2), and trace elements. The molecular weight of N2 is 28 (2 atoms of atomic weight 14), and that of O2 is 32 (2 atoms of atomic weight 16). H2O molecules have a molecular weight of 18 (one O atom with atomic weight of 16, and two H atoms each with atomic weight of 1). This is lighter than both the N2 and the O2 molecules. As Avogadro showed, the number of molecules in a given volume of gas at the same temp and pressure stays the same. Thus, in humid air, the water vapor molecules replace some of the N2 and O2 molecules, decreasing the density of the air. Note that the H2O molecules that make air humid isn't liquid. It's water vapor, which is a gas.
^ thats the thermodynamics of it right? we're talking about fuel efficiency. If colder air is denser and all the above is true then aren't you doing more work with less energy? I mean yeah if the sensors pick up more oxygen its going to spit more fuel but again, it's easier for the engine to do work right?
then theres the less restriction in an open element filter over the maze of plastic the factory has....
if im wrong on something let me know i'm trying to understand myself maybe there's something im missing, keep this going its getting interesting
but then
so what your saying is you get less mpg when its hot because there is less oxygen to burn meaning the engine adds less fuel meaning greater efficiency. But then you said that the engine doesn't care how much oxygen is in the air?
This is what doesn't make sense to me. (hypothetically speaking) Say it takes a 55 hp to push a civic up a hill. Say it takes a 14:1 (stoich) a/f mixture to produce this amount of hp (completely hypothetical but follow me on this). Say, the ambient temp is 98 degrees, and your engine breathes (again hypothetically) 1 mole of air per cycle. There is less oxygen particles (which your engine needs for combustion) in hot air (because as we all know hot air is less dense). So to produce 55 hp at 98 degree you need 14 parts of air per every 1 part of fuel.
Now the same scenario only the ambient temp is now 35 degrees. You vehicle needs 55 hp to move up a hill and it still intakes 1 mole of air per cycle, would there not be more OXYGEN in the air because cold air is denser? So if the incoming 1 mole of 35 degree air is denser than the 98 degree air, would that mean there is more OXYGEN molecules in that 1 mole of air? And because your engine requires OXYGEN for combustion, and its getting more OXYGEN molecules with the same amount of air, then would the vehicle not produce the same amount of work (hp) with less cold air than it would with more hot air? Would that not mean it is burning OXYGEN more efficiently? If the engine is burning OXYGEN more efficiently would it not mean the ECU would adjust the mixture to a LEANER mixture rather than a RICHER mixture because it has more oxygen to burn?
Hence, am i correct in hypothesizing that Cold air is denser than warm air and holds slightly more O2? Air contains 78% nitrogen molecules (N2), 21% oxygen (O2), and trace elements. The molecular weight of N2 is 28 (2 atoms of atomic weight 14), and that of O2 is 32 (2 atoms of atomic weight 16). H2O molecules have a molecular weight of 18 (one O atom with atomic weight of 16, and two H atoms each with atomic weight of 1). This is lighter than both the N2 and the O2 molecules. As Avogadro showed, the number of molecules in a given volume of gas at the same temp and pressure stays the same. Thus, in humid air, the water vapor molecules replace some of the N2 and O2 molecules, decreasing the density of the air. Note that the H2O molecules that make air humid isn't liquid. It's water vapor, which is a gas.
^ thats the thermodynamics of it right? we're talking about fuel efficiency. If colder air is denser and all the above is true then aren't you doing more work with less energy? I mean yeah if the sensors pick up more oxygen its going to spit more fuel but again, it's easier for the engine to do work right?
then theres the less restriction in an open element filter over the maze of plastic the factory has....
if im wrong on something let me know i'm trying to understand myself maybe there's something im missing, keep this going its getting interesting
10-11-2008
#99
Premium Member
Hey! Look At Me!! I'm a Supporting Member!!
iTrader: (95)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: NV
Age: 43
Posts: 51,241
Likes: 0
Received 18 Likes
on
13 Posts
Rep Power: 787 Re: Tricks to increase Civic MPG?
wait?
but then
so what your saying is you get less mpg when its hot because there is less oxygen to burn meaning the engine adds less fuel meaning greater efficiency. But then you said that the engine doesn't care how much oxygen is in the air?
i said the ENGINE doesnt care how much oxygen goes in, it just sucks it in. the ECU is what cares because it has the sensors to determine how much oxygen is being sucked in. then the ECU adjusts how much fuel is burnt relative to how much oxygen there is. the engine sucks in the EXACT same amount of air at any given time, winter or summer or high altitude. it is the amount of OXYGEN in that given air that is variable.
This is what doesn't make sense to me. (hypothetically speaking) Say it takes a 55 hp to push a civic up a hill. Say it takes a 14:1 (stoich) a/f mixture to produce this amount of hp (completely hypothetical but follow me on this). Say, the ambient temp is 98 degrees, and your engine breathes (again hypothetically) 1 mole of air per cycle. There is less oxygen particles (which your engine needs for combustion) in hot air (because as we all know hot air is less dense). So to produce 55 hp at 98 degree you need 14 parts of air per every 1 part of fuel.
its actually 14.7:1 but no car ever runs that perfect.
Now the same scenario only the ambient temp is now 35 degrees. You vehicle needs 55 hp to move up a hill and it still intakes 1 mole of air per cycle, would there not be more OXYGEN in the air because cold air is denser? So if the incoming 1 mole of 35 degree air is denser than the 98 degree air, would that mean there is more OXYGEN molecules in that 1 mole of air? And because your engine requires OXYGEN for combustion, and its getting more OXYGEN molecules with the same amount of air, then would the vehicle not produce the same amount of work (hp) with less cold air than it would with more hot air? Would that not mean it is burning OXYGEN more efficiently? If the engine is burning OXYGEN more efficiently would it not mean the ECU would adjust the mixture to a LEANER mixture rather than a RICHER mixture because it has more oxygen to burn?
you still dont get it. the mixture should not change. the ecu corrects for ambient temperature by measuring the oxygen intake and adding fuel accordingly. nothing will change this fact, its how a modern car works. if there is more oxygen coming in (and being detected by the O2 sensor), then the ecu will inject more fuel to match that amount and keep the ratio ideal.
Hence, am i correct in hypothesizing that Cold air is denser than warm air and holds slightly more O2? Air contains 78% nitrogen molecules (N2), 21% oxygen (O2), and trace elements. The molecular weight of N2 is 28 (2 atoms of atomic weight 14), and that of O2 is 32 (2 atoms of atomic weight 16). H2O molecules have a molecular weight of 18 (one O atom with atomic weight of 16, and two H atoms each with atomic weight of 1). This is lighter than both the N2 and the O2 molecules. As Avogadro showed, the number of molecules in a given volume of gas at the same temp and pressure stays the same. Thus, in humid air, the water vapor molecules replace some of the N2 and O2 molecules, decreasing the density of the air. Note that the H2O molecules that make air humid isn't liquid. It's water vapor, which is a gas.
^ thats the thermodynamics of it right? we're talking about fuel efficiency. If colder air is denser and all the above is true then aren't you doing more work with less energy? I mean yeah if the sensors pick up more oxygen its going to spit more fuel but again, it's easier for the engine to do work right?
youre completely missing the point. just because there is more oxygen, does not mean the engine will not work as hard. it will work harder! that is the whole point why people mod their cars as to get the coldest air possible into the engine. why do you think there is a whole company for heat coating headers, why people use intercoolers for turbo cars, etc. if you put a civic on the dyno in the summer at 105F, it will make 90whp. if you put the exact same car on a dyno in winter at 5F, it will make 100whp. why? because more air + more fuel = MORE POWER. end of story.
then theres the less restriction in an open element filter over the maze of plastic the factory has....
what makes you think that? the stock intake was designed to fill the cylinders with air better at lower rpm to give the car better torque. a standard K&N type filter on a pipe flows poorly, an open pipe with no filter flows a bit better, and a filter with a built-in air horn or velocity stack flows best.
if im wrong on something let me know i'm trying to understand myself maybe there's something im missing, keep this going its getting interesting
but then
so what your saying is you get less mpg when its hot because there is less oxygen to burn meaning the engine adds less fuel meaning greater efficiency. But then you said that the engine doesn't care how much oxygen is in the air?
i said the ENGINE doesnt care how much oxygen goes in, it just sucks it in. the ECU is what cares because it has the sensors to determine how much oxygen is being sucked in. then the ECU adjusts how much fuel is burnt relative to how much oxygen there is. the engine sucks in the EXACT same amount of air at any given time, winter or summer or high altitude. it is the amount of OXYGEN in that given air that is variable.
This is what doesn't make sense to me. (hypothetically speaking) Say it takes a 55 hp to push a civic up a hill. Say it takes a 14:1 (stoich) a/f mixture to produce this amount of hp (completely hypothetical but follow me on this). Say, the ambient temp is 98 degrees, and your engine breathes (again hypothetically) 1 mole of air per cycle. There is less oxygen particles (which your engine needs for combustion) in hot air (because as we all know hot air is less dense). So to produce 55 hp at 98 degree you need 14 parts of air per every 1 part of fuel.
its actually 14.7:1 but no car ever runs that perfect.
Now the same scenario only the ambient temp is now 35 degrees. You vehicle needs 55 hp to move up a hill and it still intakes 1 mole of air per cycle, would there not be more OXYGEN in the air because cold air is denser? So if the incoming 1 mole of 35 degree air is denser than the 98 degree air, would that mean there is more OXYGEN molecules in that 1 mole of air? And because your engine requires OXYGEN for combustion, and its getting more OXYGEN molecules with the same amount of air, then would the vehicle not produce the same amount of work (hp) with less cold air than it would with more hot air? Would that not mean it is burning OXYGEN more efficiently? If the engine is burning OXYGEN more efficiently would it not mean the ECU would adjust the mixture to a LEANER mixture rather than a RICHER mixture because it has more oxygen to burn?
you still dont get it. the mixture should not change. the ecu corrects for ambient temperature by measuring the oxygen intake and adding fuel accordingly. nothing will change this fact, its how a modern car works. if there is more oxygen coming in (and being detected by the O2 sensor), then the ecu will inject more fuel to match that amount and keep the ratio ideal.
Hence, am i correct in hypothesizing that Cold air is denser than warm air and holds slightly more O2? Air contains 78% nitrogen molecules (N2), 21% oxygen (O2), and trace elements. The molecular weight of N2 is 28 (2 atoms of atomic weight 14), and that of O2 is 32 (2 atoms of atomic weight 16). H2O molecules have a molecular weight of 18 (one O atom with atomic weight of 16, and two H atoms each with atomic weight of 1). This is lighter than both the N2 and the O2 molecules. As Avogadro showed, the number of molecules in a given volume of gas at the same temp and pressure stays the same. Thus, in humid air, the water vapor molecules replace some of the N2 and O2 molecules, decreasing the density of the air. Note that the H2O molecules that make air humid isn't liquid. It's water vapor, which is a gas.
^ thats the thermodynamics of it right? we're talking about fuel efficiency. If colder air is denser and all the above is true then aren't you doing more work with less energy? I mean yeah if the sensors pick up more oxygen its going to spit more fuel but again, it's easier for the engine to do work right?
youre completely missing the point. just because there is more oxygen, does not mean the engine will not work as hard. it will work harder! that is the whole point why people mod their cars as to get the coldest air possible into the engine. why do you think there is a whole company for heat coating headers, why people use intercoolers for turbo cars, etc. if you put a civic on the dyno in the summer at 105F, it will make 90whp. if you put the exact same car on a dyno in winter at 5F, it will make 100whp. why? because more air + more fuel = MORE POWER. end of story.
then theres the less restriction in an open element filter over the maze of plastic the factory has....
what makes you think that? the stock intake was designed to fill the cylinders with air better at lower rpm to give the car better torque. a standard K&N type filter on a pipe flows poorly, an open pipe with no filter flows a bit better, and a filter with a built-in air horn or velocity stack flows best.
if im wrong on something let me know i'm trying to understand myself maybe there's something im missing, keep this going its getting interesting
10-16-2008
#100
^Warranty voider
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Gainesville, Your college town is weak.
Age: 39
Posts: 821
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Rep Power: 198 Re: Tricks to increase Civic MPG?
there is no MPG drop in winter is what im saying. more oxygen molecules create more power with equal amount of volume.
10-16-2008
#102
My Honda Loves Me ^_^
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: May 2006
Location: The rich oil fields of Kuwait
Age: 38
Posts: 3,825
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rep Power: 278 Re: Tricks to increase Civic MPG?
^Sorry about that lol.
Well, I must agree. I often feel what you feel. Americans today, including I, are dumbed down to the deepest. All thanks to the beautiful US Government (along with other governemtns, oh, and the Federal Reserve) and their illegal institutions and laws. Just pathetic. You should check out the sites under my sig.
Thanks.
Sorry guys, I know this is off-topic.
10-18-2008
#104
Registered!!
Join Date: Sep 2008
Age: 62
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rep Power: 0 
Re: Tricks to increase Civic MPG? You guys crack me up!
I think this thread started about mpg gains so here are my results:
800+ mile tank and no fuel light
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w...vic800tank.jpg
working on a 1000+ mile tank (pic from yesterday)
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w...vicpics032.jpg
tricked out 2004 HX MT
BTW, I am 6'3" and 350...
I think this thread started about mpg gains so here are my results:
800+ mile tank and no fuel light
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w...vic800tank.jpg
working on a 1000+ mile tank (pic from yesterday)
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w...vicpics032.jpg
tricked out 2004 HX MT
BTW, I am 6'3" and 350...
10-18-2008
#106
Premium Member
Hey! Look At Me!! I'm a Supporting Member!!
iTrader: (95)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: NV
Age: 43
Posts: 51,241
Likes: 0
Received 18 Likes
on
13 Posts
Rep Power: 787 Re: Tricks to increase Civic MPG?
he has a manual HX to start, those lean burn engines get around 45mpg on average with normal driving. and im sure he has a set driving style judging by the use of a scangauge which gives you real time mpg readings so you can adjust what youre doing to the car.
10-18-2008
#108
Registered!!
Join Date: Sep 2008
Age: 62
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rep Power: 0 Re: Tricks to increase Civic MPG? Because several asked, I will tell what I have done. I am in no way saying this is the best or only way to increase mpg. This is what works for me. YMMV
Gearbox is correct. I do have a set driving style that the scangauge helps me with. Far and away, that makes the most difference. A $160 scangauge will pay for itself in a short time.
I have done other things to augment my driving style with the purpose of increasing mpg.
Mods/Changes:
0W~20 Mobil 1 $24
Purolater Pure one $7
93 octane gas $2.75/gal
60 psi in tires free
E3 plugs $24
IAT sensor $1
ECT sensor $1
TPS sensor $1
AFR sensor $5
post Cat 1 O2 sensor $.50
post Cat 2 O2 sensor $.50
PS free
airbox resonator free
splash gaurds free
under drive crank pulley $20
future mods:
Alt charge in DFCO only
7lb flywheel
For those that want to flame or criticize, don't waste your time. Until you can do better, it will fall on deaf ears.
If you have any particular questions about any of the mods/changes, I will do my best to explain how and why.
Thanks,
Dr Dx
Gearbox is correct. I do have a set driving style that the scangauge helps me with. Far and away, that makes the most difference. A $160 scangauge will pay for itself in a short time.
I have done other things to augment my driving style with the purpose of increasing mpg.
Mods/Changes:
0W~20 Mobil 1 $24
Purolater Pure one $7
93 octane gas $2.75/gal
60 psi in tires free
E3 plugs $24
IAT sensor $1
ECT sensor $1
TPS sensor $1
AFR sensor $5
post Cat 1 O2 sensor $.50
post Cat 2 O2 sensor $.50
PS free
airbox resonator free
splash gaurds free
under drive crank pulley $20
future mods:
Alt charge in DFCO only
7lb flywheel
For those that want to flame or criticize, don't waste your time. Until you can do better, it will fall on deaf ears.
If you have any particular questions about any of the mods/changes, I will do my best to explain how and why.
Thanks,
Dr Dx
10-18-2008
#109
Registered!!
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Reno, NV
Age: 41
Posts: 1,255
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rep Power: 242 Re: Tricks to increase Civic MPG?
Because several asked, I will tell what I have done. I am in no way saying this is the best or only way to increase mpg. This is what works for me. YMMV
Gearbox is correct. I do have a set driving style that the scangauge helps me with. Far and away, that makes the most difference. A $160 scangauge will pay for itself in a short time.
I have done other things to augment my driving style with the purpose of increasing mpg.
Mods/Changes:
0W~20 Mobil 1 $24
Purolater Pure one $7
93 octane gas $2.75/gal
60 psi in tires free
E3 plugs $24
IAT sensor $1
ECT sensor $1
TPS sensor $1
AFR sensor $5
post Cat 1 O2 sensor $.50
post Cat 2 O2 sensor $.50
PS free
airbox resonator free
splash gaurds free
under drive crank pulley $20
future mods:
Alt charge in DFCO only
7lb flywheel
For those that want to flame or criticize, don't waste your time. Until you can do better, it will fall on deaf ears.
If you have any particular questions about any of the mods/changes, I will do my best to explain how and why.
Thanks,
Dr Dx
Gearbox is correct. I do have a set driving style that the scangauge helps me with. Far and away, that makes the most difference. A $160 scangauge will pay for itself in a short time.
I have done other things to augment my driving style with the purpose of increasing mpg.
Mods/Changes:
0W~20 Mobil 1 $24
Purolater Pure one $7
93 octane gas $2.75/gal
60 psi in tires free
E3 plugs $24
IAT sensor $1
ECT sensor $1
TPS sensor $1
AFR sensor $5
post Cat 1 O2 sensor $.50
post Cat 2 O2 sensor $.50
PS free
airbox resonator free
splash gaurds free
under drive crank pulley $20
future mods:
Alt charge in DFCO only
7lb flywheel
For those that want to flame or criticize, don't waste your time. Until you can do better, it will fall on deaf ears.
If you have any particular questions about any of the mods/changes, I will do my best to explain how and why.
Thanks,
Dr Dx
0w-20 motor oil, aren't you doing more harm than good? That's a thinner oil so perhaps you're getting less engine life?
Purolater, how does that help?
Where are you getting 93 octane gas at 2.75 a galon? Regular chevron costs 3.50 here.
How are you putting in 60psi in tires? It says 44 max pressure on mine. 60 psi is insane and not safe. There is too little tire that contacts the road which results in the car having a tendency to slip on ruff terrain during a turn. Also, it's terrible in winter snow and definitely ice! We're talking major peel out.
I don't understand the sensor mods. And what do you mean only 1 dollar? Post cat sensors for .50 cents, huh?
PS? Power steering removal?
Resonator? Under drive crank pulley? What is that and how do you install it?
Thanks.
10-18-2008
#110
Premium Member
Hey! Look At Me!! I'm a Supporting Member!!
iTrader: (95)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: NV
Age: 43
Posts: 51,241
Likes: 0
Received 18 Likes
on
13 Posts
Rep Power: 787 Re: Tricks to increase Civic MPG?
while some of his mods do work, i would not ever do them to my car. why? because i care more about the car than gas mileage. but its his choice and thanks for explaining it.
for the others, most of the sensor mods are basically tricking the ecu into thinking hot air is coming in all the time, so the engine will inject less fuel. this may work to a point, but eventually the problems with running that lean will come back to bite you (ESPECIALLY with an hx that already runs on the border). you are also causing much more NoX pollution to the environment.
the tire pressure is just crazy, i would not run more than 35 psi in mine when honda calls for 30, and no way is it safe to exceed the tire sidewall pressure thats asking for serious problems. but again its your car.
0w20, another problem. that stuff is already as thin as water, and at high temps it will fall to pieces. i actually switch from 5w20 to 5w30 because i feel even the 5w20 does not provide enough engine protection at higher temps (which YOU have running lean all the time!)
im guessing you took out power steering, hopefully you did it the proper way (breather system) and not just cut the belt off.
he took the resonator off to let the engine suck in warmer air. normally this wouldnt cause any problem by itself.
the underdrive pulley is a smaller version that underpowers accessories connected to it. can often have serious consequences including charging system failure. the worst is that the aftermarket pulley does not have a rubber harmonic damper, so the engine vibrations over time will lead to bearing failure which is normally unheard of in a honda. that means new motor time.
dont get mad at me, im just posting my comments and concerns for others to think about. basically the car is a huge disaster waiting to happen and i hope you dont kill anyone or yourself when something blows up. but anyway, its your car and we cant tell you how to mod it...
for the others, most of the sensor mods are basically tricking the ecu into thinking hot air is coming in all the time, so the engine will inject less fuel. this may work to a point, but eventually the problems with running that lean will come back to bite you (ESPECIALLY with an hx that already runs on the border). you are also causing much more NoX pollution to the environment.
the tire pressure is just crazy, i would not run more than 35 psi in mine when honda calls for 30, and no way is it safe to exceed the tire sidewall pressure thats asking for serious problems. but again its your car.
0w20, another problem. that stuff is already as thin as water, and at high temps it will fall to pieces. i actually switch from 5w20 to 5w30 because i feel even the 5w20 does not provide enough engine protection at higher temps (which YOU have running lean all the time!)
im guessing you took out power steering, hopefully you did it the proper way (breather system) and not just cut the belt off.
he took the resonator off to let the engine suck in warmer air. normally this wouldnt cause any problem by itself.
the underdrive pulley is a smaller version that underpowers accessories connected to it. can often have serious consequences including charging system failure. the worst is that the aftermarket pulley does not have a rubber harmonic damper, so the engine vibrations over time will lead to bearing failure which is normally unheard of in a honda. that means new motor time.
dont get mad at me, im just posting my comments and concerns for others to think about. basically the car is a huge disaster waiting to happen and i hope you dont kill anyone or yourself when something blows up. but anyway, its your car and we cant tell you how to mod it...
10-19-2008
#111
Registered!!
Join Date: Sep 2008
Age: 62
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rep Power: 0 Re: Tricks to increase Civic MPG?
I'll do this section by section, and I am only going to do this once. If you want more info PM me and I will be glad to respond.
For starters, I live in S.Texas, we don't have snow or ice and if we do happen to have ice, they close the roads. The $ amount is the cost of the mod.
You guys are thinking about this from a performance, high RPM point of view. It is obvious from Gearbox's comments that he has no clue about Hypermiling and the conditions and techniques used. It is a totally different driving style, so the normal conditions/concerns don't apply. You have to remember that I don't drive over 2500 RPM, period. My average speed for my current tank is 37 mph!!! It isn't for everyone, in fact few people have the discipline to do it.
If Honda didn't want me using it, they wouldn't put it in the owner's manual. They also wouldn't recommend 10K mile oil changes with it. Running lean does produce more heat but with the low RPM, I don't have a heat issue contrary to what Gearbox thinks. My ECT temps are usually below or at thermostat open temp.
99.9% efficiency
Conoco close to work. reg 87 = $2.55 prem 93 = $2.75
Actually, it is more safe than a tire at 30~35 psi. You guys really need to bone up on your tire pressure. Many major brand tire manufacturers have tires that have a max sidewall press. of 51 psi (Yokohama, Dunlop. Sumitomo, etc.). The reality is it takes about 200psi to burst a tire, so 60 psi is child's play. The contact patch may be smaller, but there is more weight per sq. inch. This does 2 things, less Hydroplanning, so it is more safe in the rain and less sidewall flex, so it is more safe in cornering. Also it builds up less heat due to lower rolling resistance, which is what gives you increased mpg. I am not sure what "ruff" terrain you are referring to, I'm not offroading and S.Texas has pretty decent roads. As I stated above, I don't have snow or ice to deal with. If you feel like losing some $$$, PM me and we can bet on whose tires will last longer (how many tires have you seen that have worn out in the middle compared to ones that have worn out on the sides?.......exactly).
It cost me that amount to modify them. Usually a potentiometer/switch or both. And as far as NOX and pollution goes, stop using your small gas engines (lawnmower, weed eater, chainsaw, blower, etc.) they create many, many times more pollution than automobiles. What Gearbox also obviosly doesn't know is that in my lean burn engine the second cat O2 sensor monitors NOX levels trapped in the 2nd cat and when levels reach a certain point, will kick the car out of LB mode so it will "burn" out the accumalated NOX. As far as the HX being on the "edge", Honda runs A/F ratios up to 25:1 in their Insight (Autospeed confirmed), so I hardly think I am going to hurt anything. Time will tell.
Yes
As Gearbox stated, I removed the resonator so I could get warmer air. The under drive pulley goes in place of the stock crank pulley and is much lighter so there is less rotational mass to speed up and slow down. You can also change the alt and PS pulleys to a larger diameter too. The effect is to reduce the load on the engine. Basically, your alt and PS pump are turning at lower RPM's. And although Gearbox is trying to scare you into not using one, he has yet to produce a single, verifiable instance of someone using one, in a car that only goes 2500 RPM or less, that had bearing failure due to the pulley. Has it happened? Absolutely, on turbo'd and high RPM engines.
Hope this answers some of your questions. My results speak for themselves. I have been working on Honda's longer than most of you have been alive and know my way around one pretty well. When it comes to Hypermiling, most conventional thinking doesn't apply. It all boils down to what you feel comfortable doing to your car.
Since I have no desire to get into a pi$$ing match with anyone, especially people that have no experience with this, I will not make any more replies. If you would like more detailed info, PM me.
Good luck in your mpg endeavors.
Dr Dx
For starters, I live in S.Texas, we don't have snow or ice and if we do happen to have ice, they close the roads. The $ amount is the cost of the mod.
You guys are thinking about this from a performance, high RPM point of view. It is obvious from Gearbox's comments that he has no clue about Hypermiling and the conditions and techniques used. It is a totally different driving style, so the normal conditions/concerns don't apply. You have to remember that I don't drive over 2500 RPM, period. My average speed for my current tank is 37 mph!!! It isn't for everyone, in fact few people have the discipline to do it.
99.9% efficiency
How are you putting in 60psi in tires? It says 44 max pressure on mine. 60 psi is insane and not safe. There is too little tire that contacts the road which results in the car having a tendency to slip on ruff terrain during a turn. Also, it's terrible in winter snow and definitely ice! We're talking major peel out.
Yes
Hope this answers some of your questions. My results speak for themselves. I have been working on Honda's longer than most of you have been alive and know my way around one pretty well. When it comes to Hypermiling, most conventional thinking doesn't apply. It all boils down to what you feel comfortable doing to your car.
Since I have no desire to get into a pi$$ing match with anyone, especially people that have no experience with this, I will not make any more replies. If you would like more detailed info, PM me.
Good luck in your mpg endeavors.
Dr Dx
10-19-2008
#112
Premium Member
Hey! Look At Me!! I'm a Supporting Member!!
iTrader: (95)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: NV
Age: 43
Posts: 51,241
Likes: 0
Received 18 Likes
on
13 Posts
Rep Power: 787 Re: Tricks to increase Civic MPG?
now i know why "real" hypermilers are so dangerous and why cops hate them. at least i hope you never drive on the freeway. obviously from some of your posts, you lack some very basic automotive knowledge about your own car.
1. there is no discipline needed to make a car unsafe and then try your hardest to see how long it lasts before falling apart.
2. you have an HX! the manual tells you to use 5w20. only hybrids use 0w20 and i wouldnt even trust that in my hybrid. 10k mile oil changes are under IDEAL conditions. you qualify for severe conditions. there is no way any oil filter will last over 10k miles. but again, your engine. i wouldnt ever use a purolator and guess what, just because it says 99.9% on the box, doesnt mean it actually filters that much on your model. Do you really trust them so much? There are much better filters out there. Have you ever done an oil analysis on your oil at 10k miles after the rediculous driving you do? i would love to see the results.
3. with that kind of tire pressure, i hope you dont ever have to go over anything other than flat road surface. how long have your tires lasted btw? my last set of bridgestones lasted over 65k miles running 30psi. The only reason i had to replace them was a blown shock that caused one single tire to wear too fast. the other 3 were still way above legal tread and i drive like a monster compared to you.
4. guess why the HX is no longer made by honda? the NoX emissions were too high as tested in stock form, despite having a second catalytic converter. due to the system being too expensive and not environmental friendly, they took the car out of production. your car is not an insight hybrid, its a regular gasoline car with a few modifications to run lean. insight a/f ratios do not apply to you. please come back and post again when your car breaks down and you need a new engine.
5. so you removed ps and never answered how you did it, so im assuming you just cut the belt. hopefully you never want to go back to power steering again.
6. for an underdrive pulley to break the motor, im not sure what gave you the idea that damage only occurs at high rpm. crank vibrations occur at all rpm, in fact they may be even worse at lower rpm when the crank is the least balanced. you will not feel the vibrations, the engine will.
you act like you just discovered some magical process that nobody else understands and that somehow makes you smarter than everyone. well i hope you do ALOT more research and realize how dangerous this is. its obvious that if you spend this much time worrying and dealing with getting good mpg, something is wrong with your life. maybe you have nothing else to do, maybe you are bored, maybe you think saving money on gas is all that matters, idk. so i at least hope that you come to realize that life is much more than getting good mpg and endangering peoples lives.
1. there is no discipline needed to make a car unsafe and then try your hardest to see how long it lasts before falling apart.
2. you have an HX! the manual tells you to use 5w20. only hybrids use 0w20 and i wouldnt even trust that in my hybrid. 10k mile oil changes are under IDEAL conditions. you qualify for severe conditions. there is no way any oil filter will last over 10k miles. but again, your engine. i wouldnt ever use a purolator and guess what, just because it says 99.9% on the box, doesnt mean it actually filters that much on your model. Do you really trust them so much? There are much better filters out there. Have you ever done an oil analysis on your oil at 10k miles after the rediculous driving you do? i would love to see the results.
3. with that kind of tire pressure, i hope you dont ever have to go over anything other than flat road surface. how long have your tires lasted btw? my last set of bridgestones lasted over 65k miles running 30psi. The only reason i had to replace them was a blown shock that caused one single tire to wear too fast. the other 3 were still way above legal tread and i drive like a monster compared to you.
4. guess why the HX is no longer made by honda? the NoX emissions were too high as tested in stock form, despite having a second catalytic converter. due to the system being too expensive and not environmental friendly, they took the car out of production. your car is not an insight hybrid, its a regular gasoline car with a few modifications to run lean. insight a/f ratios do not apply to you. please come back and post again when your car breaks down and you need a new engine.
5. so you removed ps and never answered how you did it, so im assuming you just cut the belt. hopefully you never want to go back to power steering again.
6. for an underdrive pulley to break the motor, im not sure what gave you the idea that damage only occurs at high rpm. crank vibrations occur at all rpm, in fact they may be even worse at lower rpm when the crank is the least balanced. you will not feel the vibrations, the engine will.
you act like you just discovered some magical process that nobody else understands and that somehow makes you smarter than everyone. well i hope you do ALOT more research and realize how dangerous this is. its obvious that if you spend this much time worrying and dealing with getting good mpg, something is wrong with your life. maybe you have nothing else to do, maybe you are bored, maybe you think saving money on gas is all that matters, idk. so i at least hope that you come to realize that life is much more than getting good mpg and endangering peoples lives.
10-19-2008
#113
Registered!!
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Reno, NV
Age: 41
Posts: 1,255
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rep Power: 242 Re: Tricks to increase Civic MPG?
If Honda didn't want me using it, they wouldn't put it in the owner's manual. They also wouldn't recommend 10K mile oil changes with it. Running lean does produce more heat but with the low RPM, I don't have a heat issue contrary to what Gearbox thinks. My ECT temps are usually below or at thermostat open temp.
Actually, it is more safe than a tire at 30~35 psi. You guys really need to bone up on your tire pressure. Many major brand tire manufacturers have tires that have a max sidewall press. of 51 psi (Yokohama, Dunlop. Sumitomo, etc.). The reality is it takes about 200psi to burst a tire, so 60 psi is child's play. The contact patch may be smaller, but there is more weight per sq. inch. This does 2 things, less Hydroplanning, so it is more safe in the rain and less sidewall flex, so it is more safe in cornering. Also it builds up less heat due to lower rolling resistance, which is what gives you increased mpg. I am not sure what "ruff" terrain you are referring to, I'm not offroading and S.Texas has pretty decent roads. As I stated above, I don't have snow or ice to deal with. If you feel like losing some $$$, PM me and we can bet on whose tires will last longer (how many tires have you seen that have worn out in the middle compared to ones that have worn out on the sides?.......exactly).
Actually, it is more safe than a tire at 30~35 psi. You guys really need to bone up on your tire pressure. Many major brand tire manufacturers have tires that have a max sidewall press. of 51 psi (Yokohama, Dunlop. Sumitomo, etc.). The reality is it takes about 200psi to burst a tire, so 60 psi is child's play. The contact patch may be smaller, but there is more weight per sq. inch. This does 2 things, less Hydroplanning, so it is more safe in the rain and less sidewall flex, so it is more safe in cornering. Also it builds up less heat due to lower rolling resistance, which is what gives you increased mpg. I am not sure what "ruff" terrain you are referring to, I'm not offroading and S.Texas has pretty decent roads. As I stated above, I don't have snow or ice to deal with. If you feel like losing some $$$, PM me and we can bet on whose tires will last longer (how many tires have you seen that have worn out in the middle compared to ones that have worn out on the sides?.......exactly).
First, about tire PSI. I understand where you're coming from and I agree that generally people are underinflating their tires. I wouldn't, for example, inflate my tires to 30psi unless there is snow/ice outside. I set them at 30 in the winter. I've driven my car with 44psi for a while and the problem with it is that the car --during a turn-- will jump over imperfections in the road when doing highway speeds. For example, a rock or a significant crack. The car slips and then regains a hold on the road. It's scary when it happends. Conversely, when I have my tires at 35psi, the tire conforms to imperfections and there aren't any issues. I don't recommend anything past 38 these days.
Regarding tire wear, when I bought the car the previous owner had tires on there that were to their secondary rubber. The inner tire that is. This has to do with improper tire pressure primarily, then balancing and alignment. The thing is, you don't need to run high psi to achieve perfect tire wear. You just need to focus on keeping psi the same on all tires, and balance/rotate and align when necessary. I keep hearing that Honda's have alignment issues, well maybe they have more of a tendancy to create uneven wear when improperly inflated, but it's a non-issue when you're doing your job.
As for the motor oil, I couldn't tell you. I just run 5w-30 conventional like in the manual.
10-19-2008
#114
Registered!!
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Reno, NV
Age: 41
Posts: 1,255
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rep Power: 242 Re: Tricks to increase Civic MPG?
I'll do this section by section, and I am only going to do this once. If you want more info PM me and I will be glad to respond.
For starters, I live in S.Texas, we don't have snow or ice and if we do happen to have ice, they close the roads. The $ amount is the cost of the mod.
You guys are thinking about this from a performance, high RPM point of view. It is obvious from Gearbox's comments that he has no clue about Hypermiling and the conditions and techniques used. It is a totally different driving style, so the normal conditions/concerns don't apply. You have to remember that I don't drive over 2500 RPM, period. My average speed for my current tank is 37 mph!!! It isn't for everyone, in fact few people have the discipline to do it.
If Honda didn't want me using it, they wouldn't put it in the owner's manual. They also wouldn't recommend 10K mile oil changes with it. Running lean does produce more heat but with the low RPM, I don't have a heat issue contrary to what Gearbox thinks. My ECT temps are usually below or at thermostat open temp.
99.9% efficiency
Conoco close to work. reg 87 = $2.55 prem 93 = $2.75
Actually, it is more safe than a tire at 30~35 psi. You guys really need to bone up on your tire pressure. Many major brand tire manufacturers have tires that have a max sidewall press. of 51 psi (Yokohama, Dunlop. Sumitomo, etc.). The reality is it takes about 200psi to burst a tire, so 60 psi is child's play. The contact patch may be smaller, but there is more weight per sq. inch. This does 2 things, less Hydroplanning, so it is more safe in the rain and less sidewall flex, so it is more safe in cornering. Also it builds up less heat due to lower rolling resistance, which is what gives you increased mpg. I am not sure what "ruff" terrain you are referring to, I'm not offroading and S.Texas has pretty decent roads. As I stated above, I don't have snow or ice to deal with. If you feel like losing some $$$, PM me and we can bet on whose tires will last longer (how many tires have you seen that have worn out in the middle compared to ones that have worn out on the sides?.......exactly).
It cost me that amount to modify them. Usually a potentiometer/switch or both. And as far as NOX and pollution goes, stop using your small gas engines (lawnmower, weed eater, chainsaw, blower, etc.) they create many, many times more pollution than automobiles. What Gearbox also obviosly doesn't know is that in my lean burn engine the second cat O2 sensor monitors NOX levels trapped in the 2nd cat and when levels reach a certain point, will kick the car out of LB mode so it will "burn" out the accumalated NOX. As far as the HX being on the "edge", Honda runs A/F ratios up to 25:1 in their Insight (Autospeed confirmed), so I hardly think I am going to hurt anything. Time will tell.
Yes
As Gearbox stated, I removed the resonator so I could get warmer air. The under drive pulley goes in place of the stock crank pulley and is much lighter so there is less rotational mass to speed up and slow down. You can also change the alt and PS pulleys to a larger diameter too. The effect is to reduce the load on the engine. Basically, your alt and PS pump are turning at lower RPM's. And although Gearbox is trying to scare you into not using one, he has yet to produce a single, verifiable instance of someone using one, in a car that only goes 2500 RPM or less, that had bearing failure due to the pulley. Has it happened? Absolutely, on turbo'd and high RPM engines.
Hope this answers some of your questions. My results speak for themselves. I have been working on Honda's longer than most of you have been alive and know my way around one pretty well. When it comes to Hypermiling, most conventional thinking doesn't apply. It all boils down to what you feel comfortable doing to your car.
Since I have no desire to get into a pi$$ing match with anyone, especially people that have no experience with this, I will not make any more replies. If you would like more detailed info, PM me.
Good luck in your mpg endeavors.
Dr Dx
For starters, I live in S.Texas, we don't have snow or ice and if we do happen to have ice, they close the roads. The $ amount is the cost of the mod.
You guys are thinking about this from a performance, high RPM point of view. It is obvious from Gearbox's comments that he has no clue about Hypermiling and the conditions and techniques used. It is a totally different driving style, so the normal conditions/concerns don't apply. You have to remember that I don't drive over 2500 RPM, period. My average speed for my current tank is 37 mph!!! It isn't for everyone, in fact few people have the discipline to do it.
If Honda didn't want me using it, they wouldn't put it in the owner's manual. They also wouldn't recommend 10K mile oil changes with it. Running lean does produce more heat but with the low RPM, I don't have a heat issue contrary to what Gearbox thinks. My ECT temps are usually below or at thermostat open temp.
99.9% efficiency
Conoco close to work. reg 87 = $2.55 prem 93 = $2.75
Actually, it is more safe than a tire at 30~35 psi. You guys really need to bone up on your tire pressure. Many major brand tire manufacturers have tires that have a max sidewall press. of 51 psi (Yokohama, Dunlop. Sumitomo, etc.). The reality is it takes about 200psi to burst a tire, so 60 psi is child's play. The contact patch may be smaller, but there is more weight per sq. inch. This does 2 things, less Hydroplanning, so it is more safe in the rain and less sidewall flex, so it is more safe in cornering. Also it builds up less heat due to lower rolling resistance, which is what gives you increased mpg. I am not sure what "ruff" terrain you are referring to, I'm not offroading and S.Texas has pretty decent roads. As I stated above, I don't have snow or ice to deal with. If you feel like losing some $$$, PM me and we can bet on whose tires will last longer (how many tires have you seen that have worn out in the middle compared to ones that have worn out on the sides?.......exactly).
It cost me that amount to modify them. Usually a potentiometer/switch or both. And as far as NOX and pollution goes, stop using your small gas engines (lawnmower, weed eater, chainsaw, blower, etc.) they create many, many times more pollution than automobiles. What Gearbox also obviosly doesn't know is that in my lean burn engine the second cat O2 sensor monitors NOX levels trapped in the 2nd cat and when levels reach a certain point, will kick the car out of LB mode so it will "burn" out the accumalated NOX. As far as the HX being on the "edge", Honda runs A/F ratios up to 25:1 in their Insight (Autospeed confirmed), so I hardly think I am going to hurt anything. Time will tell.
Yes
As Gearbox stated, I removed the resonator so I could get warmer air. The under drive pulley goes in place of the stock crank pulley and is much lighter so there is less rotational mass to speed up and slow down. You can also change the alt and PS pulleys to a larger diameter too. The effect is to reduce the load on the engine. Basically, your alt and PS pump are turning at lower RPM's. And although Gearbox is trying to scare you into not using one, he has yet to produce a single, verifiable instance of someone using one, in a car that only goes 2500 RPM or less, that had bearing failure due to the pulley. Has it happened? Absolutely, on turbo'd and high RPM engines.
Hope this answers some of your questions. My results speak for themselves. I have been working on Honda's longer than most of you have been alive and know my way around one pretty well. When it comes to Hypermiling, most conventional thinking doesn't apply. It all boils down to what you feel comfortable doing to your car.
Since I have no desire to get into a pi$$ing match with anyone, especially people that have no experience with this, I will not make any more replies. If you would like more detailed info, PM me.
Good luck in your mpg endeavors.
Dr Dx
while some of his mods do work, i would not ever do them to my car. why? because i care more about the car than gas mileage. but its his choice and thanks for explaining it.
for the others, most of the sensor mods are basically tricking the ecu into thinking hot air is coming in all the time, so the engine will inject less fuel. this may work to a point, but eventually the problems with running that lean will come back to bite you (ESPECIALLY with an hx that already runs on the border). you are also causing much more NoX pollution to the environment.
the tire pressure is just crazy, i would not run more than 35 psi in mine when honda calls for 30, and no way is it safe to exceed the tire sidewall pressure thats asking for serious problems. but again its your car.
0w20, another problem. that stuff is already as thin as water, and at high temps it will fall to pieces. i actually switch from 5w20 to 5w30 because i feel even the 5w20 does not provide enough engine protection at higher temps (which YOU have running lean all the time!)
im guessing you took out power steering, hopefully you did it the proper way (breather system) and not just cut the belt off.
he took the resonator off to let the engine suck in warmer air. normally this wouldnt cause any problem by itself.
the underdrive pulley is a smaller version that underpowers accessories connected to it. can often have serious consequences including charging system failure. the worst is that the aftermarket pulley does not have a rubber harmonic damper, so the engine vibrations over time will lead to bearing failure which is normally unheard of in a honda. that means new motor time.
dont get mad at me, im just posting my comments and concerns for others to think about. basically the car is a huge disaster waiting to happen and i hope you dont kill anyone or yourself when something blows up. but anyway, its your car and we cant tell you how to mod it...
for the others, most of the sensor mods are basically tricking the ecu into thinking hot air is coming in all the time, so the engine will inject less fuel. this may work to a point, but eventually the problems with running that lean will come back to bite you (ESPECIALLY with an hx that already runs on the border). you are also causing much more NoX pollution to the environment.
the tire pressure is just crazy, i would not run more than 35 psi in mine when honda calls for 30, and no way is it safe to exceed the tire sidewall pressure thats asking for serious problems. but again its your car.
0w20, another problem. that stuff is already as thin as water, and at high temps it will fall to pieces. i actually switch from 5w20 to 5w30 because i feel even the 5w20 does not provide enough engine protection at higher temps (which YOU have running lean all the time!)
im guessing you took out power steering, hopefully you did it the proper way (breather system) and not just cut the belt off.
he took the resonator off to let the engine suck in warmer air. normally this wouldnt cause any problem by itself.
the underdrive pulley is a smaller version that underpowers accessories connected to it. can often have serious consequences including charging system failure. the worst is that the aftermarket pulley does not have a rubber harmonic damper, so the engine vibrations over time will lead to bearing failure which is normally unheard of in a honda. that means new motor time.
dont get mad at me, im just posting my comments and concerns for others to think about. basically the car is a huge disaster waiting to happen and i hope you dont kill anyone or yourself when something blows up. but anyway, its your car and we cant tell you how to mod it...
How much MPG gain can I expect with a proper PS removal? Also, I don't believe a car should be drive so soft. For example, accelerating like an old man all the time and shifting at ridiculously early points just clogs up fuel system and other parts doesn't it? Also, coasting with the engine off doesn't make sense to me. If you're going down a hill while in gear and you turn off the ignition, you're not wasting any more or less fuel than having the ignition on. The momentum/weight of the car does all the work and no fuel is required.. So why would I want to turn the car off and put it in neutral when keeping it in gear with ignition ON (or OFF) wastes zero fuel any way?
Last edited by Cleft_Asunder; 10-19-2008 at 01:36 PM.
10-19-2008
#115
Registered!!
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Reno, NV
Age: 41
Posts: 1,255
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rep Power: 242 Re: Tricks to increase Civic MPG?
Here's a link of articles from the hypermiling safety foundation. It's worth reading for some tips.
http://hypermilingfoundation.org/Articles.htm
http://hypermilingfoundation.org/Articles.htm
10-19-2008
#116
Premium Member
Hey! Look At Me!! I'm a Supporting Member!!
iTrader: (95)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: NV
Age: 43
Posts: 51,241
Likes: 0
Received 18 Likes
on
13 Posts
Rep Power: 787 Re: Tricks to increase Civic MPG?
cleft, good points as usual. it is very bad for an engine to be run at such low rpm all the time. it will clog up everything even using good additives like lubecontrol and foul the plugs in no time. E3 spark plug is a total joke, worse than bosch. i dont know why hes using it other than the gimmick that supposedly they never foul out (again, laughable). The best plug to use is a regular copper NGK v-power. and if you really want to get high class, go with denso iridiums. they will give your electrical system a small break because they require a lil less energy to generate the SAME size spark.
having a car that cant rev above 3krpm without blowing the engine is not very safe. what if you need passing power to avoid an accident? can you imagine driving around reno under 3krpms over all the inclines and hills where its 50+mph??? my car already struggles and im thinking of engine swaps to have a normal car, not saving gas. i tried driving as slowly as i could below 3krpms and the best mileage i got around town was 35mpg. but to me the 10mpg gain was not worth driving my car like that and i quickly went back to normal driving and sometimes going above 4k rpms. what fun is driving a car, even a slow civic, if youre gonna cripple it and drive slower than grandma. turning off the car at any time on the roadway is asking to die. you lose steering control, brakes dont work, and basically you just sit there unable to drive. not to mention adding excess wear on the starter.
having a car that cant rev above 3krpm without blowing the engine is not very safe. what if you need passing power to avoid an accident? can you imagine driving around reno under 3krpms over all the inclines and hills where its 50+mph??? my car already struggles and im thinking of engine swaps to have a normal car, not saving gas. i tried driving as slowly as i could below 3krpms and the best mileage i got around town was 35mpg. but to me the 10mpg gain was not worth driving my car like that and i quickly went back to normal driving and sometimes going above 4k rpms. what fun is driving a car, even a slow civic, if youre gonna cripple it and drive slower than grandma. turning off the car at any time on the roadway is asking to die. you lose steering control, brakes dont work, and basically you just sit there unable to drive. not to mention adding excess wear on the starter.
10-19-2008
#117
Registered!!
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Reno, NV
Age: 41
Posts: 1,255
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rep Power: 242 Re: Tricks to increase Civic MPG?
cleft, good points as usual. it is very bad for an engine to be run at such low rpm all the time. it will clog up everything even using good additives like lubecontrol and foul the plugs in no time. E3 spark plug is a total joke, worse than bosch. i dont know why hes using it other than the gimmick that supposedly they never foul out (again, laughable). The best plug to use is a regular copper NGK v-power. and if you really want to get high class, go with denso iridiums. they will give your electrical system a small break because they require a lil less energy to generate the SAME size spark.
having a car that cant rev above 3krpm without blowing the engine is not very safe. what if you need passing power to avoid an accident? can you imagine driving around reno under 3krpms over all the inclines and hills where its 50+mph??? my car already struggles and im thinking of engine swaps to have a normal car, not saving gas. i tried driving as slowly as i could below 3krpms and the best mileage i got around town was 35mpg. but to me the 10mpg gain was not worth driving my car like that and i quickly went back to normal driving and sometimes going above 4k rpms. what fun is driving a car, even a slow civic, if youre gonna cripple it and drive slower than grandma. turning off the car at any time on the roadway is asking to die. you lose steering control, brakes dont work, and basically you just sit there unable to drive. not to mention adding excess wear on the starter.
having a car that cant rev above 3krpm without blowing the engine is not very safe. what if you need passing power to avoid an accident? can you imagine driving around reno under 3krpms over all the inclines and hills where its 50+mph??? my car already struggles and im thinking of engine swaps to have a normal car, not saving gas. i tried driving as slowly as i could below 3krpms and the best mileage i got around town was 35mpg. but to me the 10mpg gain was not worth driving my car like that and i quickly went back to normal driving and sometimes going above 4k rpms. what fun is driving a car, even a slow civic, if youre gonna cripple it and drive slower than grandma. turning off the car at any time on the roadway is asking to die. you lose steering control, brakes dont work, and basically you just sit there unable to drive. not to mention adding excess wear on the starter.
Regarding RPM, I've done the low rpm thing before with my 98 auto. Why didn't I see much gain? I've never gotten past like... 450 miles per tank. And there are repercusions to soft driving besides clogging the systems. Because I've owned an auto and now own a manual 6th gen, I can confirm that soft driving is bad for the transmission. In regards to the auto, if you don't drive on the peppy side, the trany complains. Shifting is NOT smooth and you feel the trany jump in between shifts. Working the car harder restores proper smooth shifting. On a manual, I believe putting load on the car is healthy. For example, when you are facing up on a hill and you take off you are putting a lot of load on the clutch and other components. The system was designed for this kind of load and when driven this way, the trany has a tendency to remain problem free. Conversely, when you are running the car at low rpm with low loads the trany has a tendency to develope problems. I don't know why this is, but I do know that load makes my trany feel good and work without problems.
What's the story with the v-power NGK's?
10-21-2008
#118
Registered!!
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Indio, CA - Turlock, CA
Age: 34
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rep Power: 0 Re: Tricks to increase Civic MPG?
i have a 98 civic stick and i dont know why i get 25-27 mpg on a stock dx. only mods are exhaust. any ideas why?
10-21-2008
#119
Registered!!
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Reno, NV
Age: 41
Posts: 1,255
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rep Power: 242 Re: Tricks to increase Civic MPG?
How many miles on your car and what tune-ups (not mods) have you done? Are you driving your car too hard? Driving style is number 1. You should be getting like 32-42mpg roughly.
