The D17 VTEC controversy (solved).
03-03-2005
#61
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The EPA size is calculated for internal passenger volume, not external volume.
I am measuring coupe for coupe, so Civic is 1 ft shorter in length, 0.2 in shorter in height, 4.6 in narrower. Internal volume is 5 cu-ft less, that's how Accord crosses the line into mid-size, but Civic is at the edge of it.
I do believe that Accord's engine is VERY heavy vs. Civic's, with 3-disc clutch, hydralic cam gear, 0.7L more displacement, one more camshaft, etc. And double wishbone is heavy too, especially on the rear 5-link. Civic has compact one anyway(1.5 ft in total shocks length)
I am measuring coupe for coupe, so Civic is 1 ft shorter in length, 0.2 in shorter in height, 4.6 in narrower. Internal volume is 5 cu-ft less, that's how Accord crosses the line into mid-size, but Civic is at the edge of it.
I do believe that Accord's engine is VERY heavy vs. Civic's, with 3-disc clutch, hydralic cam gear, 0.7L more displacement, one more camshaft, etc. And double wishbone is heavy too, especially on the rear 5-link. Civic has compact one anyway(1.5 ft in total shocks length)
03-03-2005
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Originally Posted by 82801BA
The EPA size is calculated for internal passenger volume, not external volume.
I am measuring coupe for coupe, so Civic is 1 ft shorter in length, 0.2 in shorter in height, 4.6 in narrower. Internal volume is 5 cu-ft less, that's how Accord crosses the line into mid-size, but Civic is at the edge of it.
I do believe that Accord's engine is VERY heavy vs. Civic's, with 3-disc clutch, hydralic cam gear, 0.7L more displacement, one more camshaft, etc. And double wishbone is heavy too, especially on the rear 5-link. Civic has compact one anyway(1.5 ft in total shocks length)
I am measuring coupe for coupe, so Civic is 1 ft shorter in length, 0.2 in shorter in height, 4.6 in narrower. Internal volume is 5 cu-ft less, that's how Accord crosses the line into mid-size, but Civic is at the edge of it.
I do believe that Accord's engine is VERY heavy vs. Civic's, with 3-disc clutch, hydralic cam gear, 0.7L more displacement, one more camshaft, etc. And double wishbone is heavy too, especially on the rear 5-link. Civic has compact one anyway(1.5 ft in total shocks length)
03-03-2005
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Rep Power: 0 I once sit in an Accord coupe and I felt compressed by the car. 4 door doesn't have any improvement on that. I like the Civic more (at least I can put my leg against the side panel without any problem. My leg always hits the edge of the handle in Accord.)
03-03-2005
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Some of you have got to be kidding me...
So, Accords have a triple-disc clutch? Oh, and Honda set the VTEC activation point as a function of cruising speed? Screw engine and flow dynamics, VTEC means instant and god-like engine power right? And 7th generation Civics still have a double-wishbone suspension?
Holy crap, for God's sakes guys, read what 4drcivic said to start, then go attend an auto shop course, read some books, and research what you say before it comes out of your mouth... I can't believe some of the crap in this thread
So, Accords have a triple-disc clutch? Oh, and Honda set the VTEC activation point as a function of cruising speed? Screw engine and flow dynamics, VTEC means instant and god-like engine power right? And 7th generation Civics still have a double-wishbone suspension?
Holy crap, for God's sakes guys, read what 4drcivic said to start, then go attend an auto shop course, read some books, and research what you say before it comes out of your mouth... I can't believe some of the crap in this thread
Last edited by psychotic_z; 03-03-2005 at 10:05 PM.
03-03-2005
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Rep Power: 0 i only read page 1 and 2 but in other countries(i.e. philippines) the 7thgen is called the "vtec3" because the vtec kicks 2x.. first somewhere between 2k-3k and the second one kicks in somewhere bet 4-5k(it's supposed to make the car more fuel efficient while giving more "power").. maybe it's the same engine
03-03-2005
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Originally Posted by ferio
i only read page 1 and 2 but in other countries(i.e. philippines) the 7thgen is called the "vtec3" because the vtec kicks 2x.. first somewhere between 2k-3k and the second one kicks in somewhere bet 4-5k(it's supposed to make the car more fuel efficient while giving more "power").. maybe it's the same engine
No, it isn't. That is a three-stage VTEC system that uses completely different components.
03-04-2005
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Originally Posted by 4drcivic2k1
No, it isn't. That is a three-stage VTEC system that uses completely different components.
And 82801... 3 disc clutch...? Maybe you're misunderstanding, but a 3-disc clutch only could mean three friction discs (i.e. triple-plate clutch). The clutch design has nothing to do with the types of gears in the transmission...
03-04-2005
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Rep Power: 0 My car is the 04 Civic EX coupe. Mine will cruise at around 3500-3800 rpms at about 60-65mph. I tested the thery that VTEC engages around 2500-3000 and I felt not boost in the power band...yet, I feel that it is worth noting that you usually pull out around these rpms and when you pull out, you will feel a slight difference in the power because you rev the rpms slightly...but this still does not convince me that VTEC is at those low rpms. The power increase (VTEC) for my car engages at about 4500.
03-04-2005
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Originally Posted by psychotic_z
Some of you have got to be kidding me...
Oh, and Honda set the VTEC activation point as a function of cruising speed? Screw engine and flow dynamics, VTEC means instant and god-like engine power right?
Oh, and Honda set the VTEC activation point as a function of cruising speed? Screw engine and flow dynamics, VTEC means instant and god-like engine power right?
I siad it does not make sence to have VTEC on while at cruising speeds. Think about it, VTEC is for power as you siad, when you need extra power to acclerate on an on ramp or something like that. While VTEC is on, you have more air flowwing in, more air flow means there HAS to be more gas. DO you think Honda got an ULEV rating by having this sytem working when the car is operated at normal highway speeds? If you think VTEC gives you god-like power, maybe you should try riding in a fast car, as in sub 10 second car.
I'm not doing anything with engine flow dynamic, never mentioned it, had no intention of mentioning it, where did that come from? Unless you are think that by saying when you put more air in the engine, you have to use more gas, but I sure hope you don't consider that engine flow dynamics...
Last edited by Jrfish007; 03-04-2005 at 08:10 AM.
03-04-2005
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Originally Posted by 82801BA
The EPA size is calculated for internal passenger volume, not external volume.
I am measuring coupe for coupe, so Civic is 1 ft shorter in length, 0.2 in shorter in height, 4.6 in narrower. Internal volume is 5 cu-ft less, that's how Accord crosses the line into mid-size, but Civic is at the edge of it.
I do believe that Accord's engine is VERY heavy vs. Civic's, with 3-disc clutch, hydralic cam gear, 0.7L more displacement, one more camshaft, etc. And double wishbone is heavy too, especially on the rear 5-link. Civic has compact one anyway(1.5 ft in total shocks length)
I am measuring coupe for coupe, so Civic is 1 ft shorter in length, 0.2 in shorter in height, 4.6 in narrower. Internal volume is 5 cu-ft less, that's how Accord crosses the line into mid-size, but Civic is at the edge of it.
I do believe that Accord's engine is VERY heavy vs. Civic's, with 3-disc clutch, hydralic cam gear, 0.7L more displacement, one more camshaft, etc. And double wishbone is heavy too, especially on the rear 5-link. Civic has compact one anyway(1.5 ft in total shocks length)
Yeah, it is very heavy compared to the civic. I personall like the ride of the Accord better than the civic. I also have a tendancy to drive much more aggrevise with a manual (which my civic was), so for me to get an auto was an improvment on my driving, if that makes sence. I'm not sure how much heavier the motor is, I thought the all the K's had the same extrenal dimensions, and I've heard on this site that the K20 is less than 100 lbs heavier than the D17, but I have not seen the actual figures myself, so it's just say so. If I had to guess though, if the K24 is indeed larger than it K20 brother, then I would guess the K24 is about 150+-25 lbs heavier, not sure though. Now the 5 speed auto tranny is going to be far heavier than the 5 speed manual in the civic.
03-04-2005
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Originally Posted by Jrfish007
Yeah, it is very heavy compared to the civic. I personall like the ride of the Accord better than the civic. I also have a tendancy to drive much more aggrevise with a manual (which my civic was), so for me to get an auto was an improvment on my driving, if that makes sence. I'm not sure how much heavier the motor is, I thought the all the K's had the same extrenal dimensions, and I've heard on this site that the K20 is less than 100 lbs heavier than the D17, but I have not seen the actual figures myself, so it's just say so. If I had to guess though, if the K24 is indeed larger than it K20 brother, then I would guess the K24 is about 150+-25 lbs heavier, not sure though. Now the 5 speed auto tranny is going to be far heavier than the 5 speed manual in the civic.
03-04-2005
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Originally Posted by 82801BA
If what you say is true, then the Accord is actually made "lighter" than the Civic (weight vs. demension). It's interesting. You know, K and D engines are made of Al block and head therefore I think K24 is much heavier. Well, all internals can't be all Al though, especially I don't think there're any Al piston (it just so soft). But the pistons, connecting rod and crankshaft are actually the heaviest part of the engine, and they are functions of dimension.
Good point, I'm sure the crank in teh K24 is monsterous compared to the D series. Of course all the other parts you mentioned are going to be big too. I think someone use Al rods and pistons... I mean for racing, not OEM stuff. Probably rebuild the engine every couple thousand mile too. But yeah your right the K24 is basically a stoked K20 (with a little bigger bore, but most diplacement comes from the longer stroke), so that means it shoudl have a larger crank than the K20.
03-04-2005
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Originally Posted by 82801BA
If what you say is true, then the Accord is actually made "lighter" than the Civic (weight vs. demension). It's interesting. You know, K and D engines are made of Al block and head therefore I think K24 is much heavier. Well, all internals can't be all Al though, especially I don't think there're any Al piston (it just so soft). But the pistons, connecting rod and crankshaft are actually the heaviest part of the engine, and they are functions of dimension.
Most pistons are made of aluminum.
03-04-2005
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Originally Posted by Jrfish007
Reading>>you
I siad it does not make sence to have VTEC on while at cruising speeds. Think about it, VTEC is for power as you siad, when you need extra power to acclerate on an on ramp or something like that. While VTEC is on, you have more air flowwing in, more air flow means there HAS to be more gas. DO you think Honda got an ULEV rating by having this sytem working when the car is operated at normal highway speeds? If you think VTEC gives you god-like power, maybe you should try riding in a fast car, as in sub 10 second car.
I'm not doing anything with engine flow dynamic, never mentioned it, had no intention of mentioning it, where did that come from? Unless you are think that by saying when you put more air in the engine, you have to use more gas, but I sure hope you don't consider that engine flow dynamics...
I siad it does not make sence to have VTEC on while at cruising speeds. Think about it, VTEC is for power as you siad, when you need extra power to acclerate on an on ramp or something like that. While VTEC is on, you have more air flowwing in, more air flow means there HAS to be more gas. DO you think Honda got an ULEV rating by having this sytem working when the car is operated at normal highway speeds? If you think VTEC gives you god-like power, maybe you should try riding in a fast car, as in sub 10 second car.
I'm not doing anything with engine flow dynamic, never mentioned it, had no intention of mentioning it, where did that come from? Unless you are think that by saying when you put more air in the engine, you have to use more gas, but I sure hope you don't consider that engine flow dynamics...
The "god-like power" statement and such was all sarcasm, but I guess you didn't catch that one. The point is: VTEC was designed to blend economy and power - a mild profile for low speed, and a larger profile for high speed. END OF STORY. It was not meant to create "god-like power" or "mAd hIgH rPm pOwA, y0!". VTEC or not, it's still a four-cylinder - Stop inflating this whole concept up into some sort of miracle system that you think makes your little fart can "MaaaaD tiiite fast!"
03-05-2005
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Originally Posted by psychotic_z
Buahahahaha, Grammar/English > You.
The "god-like power" statement and such was all sarcasm, but I guess you didn't catch that one. The point is: VTEC was designed to blend economy and power - a mild profile for low speed, and a larger profile for high speed. END OF STORY. It was not meant to create "god-like power" or "mAd hIgH rPm pOwA, y0!". VTEC or not, it's still a four-cylinder - Stop inflating this whole concept up into some sort of miracle system that you think makes your little fart can "MaaaaD tiiite fast!"
The "god-like power" statement and such was all sarcasm, but I guess you didn't catch that one. The point is: VTEC was designed to blend economy and power - a mild profile for low speed, and a larger profile for high speed. END OF STORY. It was not meant to create "god-like power" or "mAd hIgH rPm pOwA, y0!". VTEC or not, it's still a four-cylinder - Stop inflating this whole concept up into some sort of miracle system that you think makes your little fart can "MaaaaD tiiite fast!"
Yeah, your right. My only civic that I claimed was fast only ran a very slow an 11.2 quarter mile. But like you say, it's still a four-cylinder, there for it's slow, right? Is that a miracle? If you consider a ceramic ball baring turbo a miracle, I guess it would be, but I don't. DO I think VTEC has much to do with it, not really, it helped some what, but there are many B16B's that run faster than I did. Do I think VTEC creates god-like power, no, don't remember where that was even said in this thread. You just seem to come on here and start flaming and putting words like engine flow dynamics and god-like power in our mouths. Don't think that is kind of childish? Are you to good to simply to try and tell us how you think it works in a normal civil means and not flame? I guess so, because you just come on here and flame instead of contributing to the discussion.
You still didn't address the main issue on which I replied to you, does that mean you now understand what I was saying when I stated that it doesn't make sense to have VTEC engaged at highway cruising speed, or was my "in depth" analysis of engine flow dynamics as you call it to complex?
Last edited by Jrfish007; 03-05-2005 at 08:29 AM.
03-05-2005
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Originally Posted by psychotic_z
Buahahahaha, Grammar/English > You.
The "god-like power" statement and such was all sarcasm, but I guess you didn't catch that one. The point is: VTEC was designed to blend economy and power - a mild profile for low speed, and a larger profile for high speed. END OF STORY. It was not meant to create "god-like power" or "mAd hIgH rPm pOwA, y0!". VTEC or not, it's still a four-cylinder - Stop inflating this whole concept up into some sort of miracle system that you think makes your little fart can "MaaaaD tiiite fast!"
The "god-like power" statement and such was all sarcasm, but I guess you didn't catch that one. The point is: VTEC was designed to blend economy and power - a mild profile for low speed, and a larger profile for high speed. END OF STORY. It was not meant to create "god-like power" or "mAd hIgH rPm pOwA, y0!". VTEC or not, it's still a four-cylinder - Stop inflating this whole concept up into some sort of miracle system that you think makes your little fart can "MaaaaD tiiite fast!"
Also, who said I have a little fart can? I have a '04 Accord Ex that is completely stock. Before that I had an '03 civic EX that had two mods on it, a RSX sway bar and strut bar. In fact I've owned 5 Hondas now, want to guess how many have had fart cans... 0 Yup, no big wings, never had a body kit. you know not everybody that owns a civic has a fart can and a big wing with some weird body kit.
Last edited by Jrfish007; 03-05-2005 at 08:30 AM.
03-05-2005
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Originally Posted by psychotic_z
Buahahahaha, Grammar/English > You.
Sure am glad you can pick out all my grammar mistakes. Do you feel better than me now that you have proven you can run spell check and that I really don't care? Get a life; I've got better things to do than to see if I spelled something wrong, sorry I've got dyslexia. Bet you feel all happy now, you can pick on my handicap, thanks.
03-05-2005
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Originally Posted by flotsamm
This thread is offically ruined. Thanks.
What else was there to discuss? We went over that the D17 has two lobes for the intake, at a certian RPM a pin slides over and engages the the second valve to the first valves cam lobe. It is up for debate as to if it is 2,300 ish RPM or 4,500 ish RPMs. I say 4,500 because I can't see cruising down the highway with VTEC on, VTEC was designed to combine a fuel effiecent with a little extra power, why would you want to use that power fro mainting 65-75? I admit I could be wrong, just seems logical to me.
I mentioned the D16, previous civic EX motor, had three intake lobes and worked on a different system, many people think that system is in effect in on the 7thgen civics today, but they a wrong, it uses the system I described above.
Only thing left to debate is what point or range the VTEC operates in.
03-05-2005
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Rep Power: 787 Getting back on topic, I think our cars have variable vtec meaning it can engage at different rpms depending on acceleration. I've tried pressing the gas enough to reach 2800rpms, then again to reach 3800rpms. It always feels faster the second time prolly due to vtec. It's hard to explain I guess but just try it. And of the freeway, the vtec light doesn't turn on intil the rpms are above 3k.
And I'd like to bring up another point. Someone already did a real test on all this and found out you had to be going WOT, warmed up, and rpms above 4k for it to trip the solenoid. So why are we even having this convo?
And I'd like to bring up another point. Someone already did a real test on all this and found out you had to be going WOT, warmed up, and rpms above 4k for it to trip the solenoid. So why are we even having this convo?
03-05-2005
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Rep Power: 787 Then again, 82801BA said this about it
Do not argue on this topic, because I did it before, just like you, and many ppl did it before too. I was thinking the same thing as you DO NOW and didn't realize the truth until I drop in VTEC controller, open up the valve cover, and do the DIY VTEC light. All agree that it happens at 2500rpm. Dyno proved also, if I don't leave the VTEC engagement around 2500 rpm, I get a complete flat curve(no hp gain, worse than stock!!) from 2500-3500 rpm, where I set my VTEC point at 3500 at that time. I don't need to lie to you, and I actually did a lot of research on this topic, because I was just like you.
