LowLife

iTrader: (-1)

I just got back from the dealership from having my girls camry serviced (general oil change). Now when I ask for the fluids to be topped off, which fluids are supposed to be topped off? I would figure all of them. When I popped the hood, the only fluids that were at the full mark were the windshield washer fluid and the coolant. The power steering and brake fluids were both approx. 3/4" to 1" below the full mark. When I asked about them I was told that you are not supposed to top off the brake fluid because "then you wouldn't know if the brake pads were going bad" and no excuse for not filling the power steering fluid. What kind of idiots would tell me that the brake fluid would not let me know if the pads were bad?

Now my question is, are you really not supposed to top of the brake and power steering fluids? If not, why? I have always topped off both when checking my car.

nick95673

iTrader: (13)

You top off the brake fluid when you change the pads. That way as the pads wear the fluid will drop and let you know to change the pads. If you didnt change your pads dont top it off. Also when you put new pads on your fluid will be past the full mark.

KINGCHILE

^^^exactly

LowLife

iTrader: (-1)

Ok that makes sense as a convenience for the dealership to not actually check the brake pads, but not absolutely necissary. I'd prefer to have the fluids full and have them look specifically at the pads themselves to see if they're bad. Although it may not make the most sense to have it done this way, is there anything wrong with doing it this way?

And about the power steering fluid?

ncirom2003

iTrader: (7)

exactly, thats a cheapo way to check pads do it the right way. keep all fluids at the full or MAX line and not above. and when you change pads you take off the cap to let excess drain out.

nick95673

iTrader: (13)

Its the way it is done by 90% of shops and guys in the U.S. Yes it sounds wrong if you have never heard it before. The reason so many people check the brake pads that way is because it works. You get your brake pads visually checked when you get your tires rotated every 5k miles.

LowLife

iTrader: (-1)

If that is the case, Toyota's get their oil change at 5k increments, so where am I wrong?

nick95673

iTrader: (13)

Did you schedule a tire rotation or allignment? Or do you get that done at Big-O or another tire company. 99% of tire shops do free brake pad checks. You are not wrong in any way. The best and only true way to check the pads is by looking at the pads. However a good way to check is to look at the fluid level. Also if you fill it up when the pads are worn when you put new pads on you will have the level end up well past full. The confusion is that you expect something out of the norm to be normal. It is an understandable assumption but like most assumptions you don't call them assumptions until you already know they are wrong.

LowLife

iTrader: (-1)

No, I didn't schedule a tire rotation or an alignment, although the alignment is off I believe and needs to be checked out. I was actually at the Toyota dealership. I just wanted to double check because they tried to make me out to be a dumbass because I wanted her brake fluid and power steering fluid topped off as well. I stated every point I have already made in this post, yet they kept telling me that it is bad to do so, not that it is just easier for them to do it their way. I just wanted to make sure that I was not in the wrong as I will be in contact with the dealerships owner (I used to work for her a while back :] ). If I want things done a certain way, that's the way they should be done if I'm spending money on their services. I don't go there to be argued with.

myinca

iTrader: (1)

yeah most places u go to they are lazy and skimp on things...my girl went to get her oil changed 2day in her 04 saturn ion, her mom was with her, and as they mechanics were checking under the hood they said" yeah the battery is ok" (that was one of the things they said they would check with the change)..well for those that dont no, the newer saturns put the battery in the trunk and she had not poped it, when she said "ohh the battery is ok? bc its in the trunk and you are looking under the hood" they just looked at each other, laughed, closed the hood and gave them the bill. thats y i try to do as much as the work as possible myself so i know its done right.

nick95673

iTrader: (13)

You dont do it. When you put new brake pads on it could over flow!!! gosh!!! or when you take the cap off it could be under pressure and spray all over the engine bay in your face. Have you ever rubbed brake fluid in your eyes? You are asking them to F up. I am sorry you don't understand that. What they did has nothing to do with checking the brakes because that's not what they were doing. The ability to check the brake pads is side a benefit. The main benefit is not overfilling you fluid. What they did is the industry standard. There for if they do fill it up against industry standards and it does cause damage they could be at fault. What you asked them to do is wrong. It is wrong. You pay them to do a job that they know how to do. If you don't trust them don't go back. Find a shop that doesn't use their experience and does exactly what the car owner wants even if it is wrong. 99.999999% of cars are maintained in this exact way. The mechanic across the street with 20+ years experience maintains his 3 atv's, 2 cars, and 3 trucks in this manner. The other cars that are maintained the way you want are done by either perfectionist who know exactly what they are doing and wouldn't bring their car to a mechanic or guys who think they know everything and that every shop is trying to screw them out of 30 cents of brake fluid.

pon55

iTrader: (19)

This is why they put max and min marks on the fluid holders!
Should not be above max or below min

LowLife

iTrader: (-1)

What the **** kind of hypocrytical **** is this?


Yeah um, **** you. I liked you till you made this comment. I never said they were trying to screw me in the least, just a half assed job. Nor did I act like I know everything (there were many statements made by them that would imply them b.s.ing me, which if you would like to hear I would gladly supply you with). I had never heard of not topping off your brake fluid being bad for your car before. I top off my fluids all the time, and did the same on my truck. I haven't done the brakes on the civic yet, but I did on the truck and never had a problem with overflowing of fluids. I came on here to get helpful information, which you did give (although you still haven't cleared up the power steering fluids for me). For that I thank you. For the last comment, well you sir, can suck my ****.



Before you go getting all menstrual on me, I was just playing, guy.

shroomster

ok...sounds like a real explination is needed.
most brake systems are hydraulic acting on a hygroscopic (water absorbing) fluid
under normal use the pads are worn down, down, down, that means that the fluid has to travel farther to move the pads against the rotors/drums w/e.
when the fluid moves farther it is going to leave more space in the fluid resevoir.
when you get the pads and shoes replaced the mechanic has to reset the brake pistons and drum cylinders that the brake fluid pushed out.
when they reset it they are pushing the fluid back up to the resevoir.

thats why it looks like there is low fluid in the brake resevoir.

"checking by the brake fluid to check the wear of the pads"
NO that is not an industry standard unless you are working for jiffy lube or some other 'quickie-lube" shop....


the proper way is to check the pads themselves.
if the fluid level is low and there is insignifacant fluid then there is a lot of different possibilities, air in the lines, bad master cylinder, bad lines, wheel cylinder or piston leaks
or many other problems


power steering should be refilled but IT CAN VARY from car to car...
moisture in the p/s is also a cause of fluid loss as well as leaks....

you should always inform the customer of the proper procedures and not treat or speak to them like they're stupid...if they ask a dumb question INFORM them, so that they understand.

LowLife

iTrader: (-1)

You're awesome man +1 for you. Just to confirm, having my p/s and brake fluids topped off will not cause any problems other than an inconvience correct? or am I still lost

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

ps should be at max when the car is warmed up. doesnt matter with car off if its low. brake fluid, no need to do anything except change it every 3 years. coolant should not be needing a top off either unless its leaking.

shroomster

I'd say leave the brake fluid alone and top the p/s off.....with some LC20

http://www.lubecontrol.com hehe...

but yeah you can top off the p/s...but i dunno why it'd be low in a new car...it is a new car right?

only thing with topping off brake fluid...if you do you will most likely have a mess when you're pads get changed...
enough fluid MAY get pushed back into the resevoir that it may overflow and come out all over the brake master cylinder and the power booster and brake fluid is corrosive.....

nick95673

iTrader: (13)

I was trying to explain that it was ok to not top it off. I told you you were not wrong because you wern't but you didnt get it. So I changed my approach.

LowLife

iTrader: (-1)

^^ hahaha I still don't get it.

and b.t.w. shroomie its an 02 so no it's not "new"

shroomster

haha Shroomie....that made my night....first time I've heard that one

cleancivic 05

^^^^^me to

ncirom2003

iTrader: (7)

im not reading all that, but bottom line is...ive heard and been trained to check fluid like that. and ive got ase cert's in brakes.
i would only check brake pads like that if i was doing it myself just cus im under the hood. NEVER, NEVER would i half *** my job if i customer requests me to check the brakes, i pull the wheels off and check them! how can the brake fluid tell you if the pad is wearing at an angle? how could it tell you soooooo many things you could notice by looking.

LowLife

iTrader: (-1)

You are Shroomie and you are good.

S2000man01

iTrader: (1)

thank you. finally someone got it right. head - nail

shroomster

I just realized I meant to say 'insufficient' hehe thanks for the backing nonetheless.....

ncirom2003

iTrader: (7)

one small correction, with drum brakes this does not happen. you do not push the pistons back into the wheel cylinder...you just put the new shoes on, because the drum brake setup compensates for shoe lining wear, by adjusting them using the adjuster at the bottom, when you brake in reverse it moves them outward and adjusts them, so this is waht you would be resetting on a new brake job, and therefore you cant check the level of fluid for shoes.
id be pissed if anyone looked at my brake fluid and said, no your pads are good. id proceed to smacking them in the back of the head and pointing to the drums.
and as for brake fluid.
dot 3 and dot 4 are hygroscopic, and thus can be mixed if nescessary (if your low and only have the other one laying around)
dot 5 is not water absorbent (i forget the term but im not gonna google it just to seem like a smart guy) and can NOT be mixed with any other brake fluid because it will mix like oil in water. dot 5 is also more typically used in higher performance cars

shroomster

yeah you're absolutely right about the dot 5 i didn't say anythign cuz I didn't think anyone on here was gonna even give seeing as no one is running dot 5 in a civc heh..


yeah about the shoes you're right too...I was getting the recalibrating the springs and tension and **** like that all confused.....thanks for the clarification though....

S2000man01

iTrader: (1)

DOT 5 is not used in ANY street vehicle at all. no street driven car should be using DOT 5. in fact, it's the exact opposite about performance vehicles. DOT 5 would be even WORSE in a performance vehicle.

ncirom2003

iTrader: (7)

how? dot 5 has a higher boiling point.
dot 3 is 400
dot 4 is 445
dot 5 is 500
which would you rather use in a high performance car?

downsides are that since it doesnt absorb water (its silicone based) it will push it to the lowest point most often the calipers and the 100% water thats pooled will promote rapid errosion, thus seizing of the caliper piston. thats why they say that you should crack the bleeder once in a while to bleed out water. and that its easy to get bubbles while pouring....so with some basic precautions and maintenance dot 5 is better performing.

so they may not be in production cars but it DOES have better performance.

S2000man01

iTrader: (1)

<sigh> very well.

first, there are DOT 3/4/5.1 fluids that will have higher boiling points than anyone will ever reach on their car. so you don't need dot 5.

second, YOU CANNOT USE DOT 5 FLUID ON A CAR THAT HAS ABS!!!!!

also, DOT 5 does not "seal" the brake system properly. (hence the reason you can't use ABS, due to the nature of the system) It does not coat and treat the parts in the system like DOT 3 or 4.

lastly, guess what. your owner's manual says to use DOT 3 or DOT 4 fluid. You CANNOT use DOT 5 in a system that is designed for DOT 3 or DOT 4. so, i would suggest you stop telling people it's for performance cars and that it will perform better for them.


FYI DOT 5.1 IS compatible with DOT 3 and 4, and meets the same performance aspects of DOT 5 in regards to boiling point, etc.

so, sorry, but no one here, particularly performance cars, should use DOT5.