Zzyzx

Ok, so Its weird how accidents lead the way to new discoveries......

So I was changing out my front lower control arm bushings (at my dads shop in San Diego), over the long Thanksgiving weekend. During the install, we broke one of the endlinks for the front anti-roll bar. So any way, now my front anti-roll bar is disconnected and I’ve noticed one big difference… Less Understeer, and the car just feels more balanced in the corners. Plus it’s easier to get the rear end to rotate. Now I’m not saying for every body to go and disconnect their front anti-roll bar, but its something you may want to experiment with. Me, I’m going to run with the bar disconnected at the Nationals, I’ll give a full report after.


Suspension set up as of 12/15/03
Eibach Sportline springs
RSX 19mm Rear Anti-Roll bar.
Neuspeed Front Strut tower bar.
Stock 25.4 mm Front Anti-roll bar (01 EX) Now disconnected
Energy Suspension Front Lower Control arm bushings.

Sickboy

iTrader: (3)

Bah I was just working on my review of the 19mm RSX rear sway with the tiny 16mm front stock bar on my 03'. Looks like I don't need to because you beat me to it. The last two days I played around with my car at my work's parking lot and I noticed how much easier it was to whip it around corners. I'm thinking the 16mm front bar is pretty worthless.

robbclark1

iTrader: (8)

i was thinking about getting a smaller front stock bar from an 03+ civic to see how that worked. but I might see how the bushings and the coilovers make the car feel first.

Sickboy, remember if your car starts to slip out in the rear, HIT the gas, don't brake or let off the gas. Just a reminder. Want you being safe.

Sickboy

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for the warning Rob but I've already had to learn most of this front wheel drive stuff already. Talk about a change from my old rear wheel drive that I had for 6 years (1971 Datsun pickup, 94 horsepower, ~2000lbs.). The things we sacrifice for family...

wannabeblown

iTrader: (2)

Ya, I ran this setup at the last autocross...

Progress rear sway w/ tie
Cusco rear upper strut
neuspeed x-brace
neuspeed front upper brace
KW V2 full hard rear, half hard(or half soft) up front
Falken Azenis 205/50/15
and no front sway

I noticed a big difference in understeer. The only reason the front sway off is because I removed it prior to getting my progress front in. I don't think i will install the new bar now. It was amazing the difference i had in corner entry, barely any push. I ran FSP btw.

Boilermaker1

iTrader: (16)

Just take the X bar off and run STS... you'll probably have more fun.

Meanwhile... I've been kicking around the 03 front bar. I guess this confirms my thoughts that it would be better.

wannabeblown

iTrader: (2)

it was the last autocross for the season, no points so i wasn't really worried. I also placed 3rd out of all SP. I got whooped up by a miata and a cooper works mini.

IronFist

iTrader: (3)

Which is it? 25.4 or 16mm?

Zzyzx

the 01-02 had a 25.4mm
the 03+ have a 16mm

macrossranma

iTrader: (1)

before i have

neuspeed front upper strut
h&r sport
19mm rsx rear sway
215/45/17 yoko es100
front driver side strut blown

i notice its alot harder to drive when i install the neuspeed front upper strut, it understeer ALOT more, but after 1 event i got used to it, it actually help me take 0.5-1 sec off average, now i got kw v2, ALOT better, havent try out on autox yet cuz installed a few weeks ago, but i think i can take 2 sec off average

jdmb16ahatch

iTrader: (3)

i know with my EF i would loosen the front bar and run a larger rear like i have now on this 7thgen but i havent messed with the front bar yet...but yeh stiffer rear loose front is good

Zzyzx

Ok, so far I am more then likeing this setup. The car just feels, Light. and as long as I'm smooth with the car it is Very tossable. especially if I trail brake, the *** end just slides over, points the car in the right direction, and then back on the gas, accelerating away.....

robbclark1

iTrader: (8)

did you change the rear bushings too? how hard was changing the front ones?

Zzyzx

The bushings took about 2 hours to put in, You're going to need a Press to get the old ones out and press the new ones in. We used a 20 Ton press...... thats the hardest part really. I only did the fronts, The rears looked to be ok, so I probably wont change them untill next year. The car feels more stable with them in, more responsive even. no more suspension wobbles mid corner....


Oh ya, I went with Energey suspension polyurithane bushings. Much nicer then stock rubber....

macrossranma

iTrader: (1)

Zzyzx, is the body roll increase alot when u took of the front sway?

Zzyzx

Not really, well not enough for me to notice much. I'll know more after the national event in January.

robbclark1

iTrader: (8)

yeah I have the bushings in my apt. i have to put them in though. I heard the fronts were easy except the press part. Opto-isolator says the rears are a PITA. once those and the JICs go in then I will decide about the FASB.

slowvic

Hey Rob, want to buy my front bar? I would suggest against it though. I was running the stock 03 front bar with the progress rear set up for a while. The car rotated great, but turn in was unresponsive and the inside rear wheel would catch some serious air on 90 degree turns. Just a thought.

slowvic

Want to get rid of understeer? I bet -2 degrees of front camber would do it.

Zzyzx

^^ that would help, but then it would also eat tires..... you could also dial in a bit-o-toe out on the nose, but that would eat tires quicker then the negitive camber.

Roy

y toe out? you mean toe in? from my understanding, you never want toe out.

Zzyzx

Toe out will help initate a corner, but it will also make the car want to wander in the straights.... Toe in will make a car more stable going in straight lines but hinder cornering.....

So for the street, and average Joe schmoe driver. Toe in is the way to go. If you are trying to extract every last bit of handling out of your car, a Little toe out may help.

Case in point.... Here is the setup for this years STS wining Civic (89 Si)
camber = 3.25 deg negative in front, 2.3 negative in rear
toe = slight toe out in front (depends on tightness of course) and zero toe in rear

Here is the alignment settings on a good STS classed Neon
Alignment (camber) 2.5 to 3 degrees negative in the front. 1.5 to 2 degrees in the rear.
Alignment (toe) Zero toe in the rear and between 1/8" and 1/4" Toe OUT in the front.

and finally a STS preped Subaru Impresa 2.5 RS

Alignment (camber) 3 degrees front. 1.5 degrees rear.
Alignment (toe) 1/4' Toe OUT in the front. 1/8" Toe OUT in the rear. A less aggressive setup would be involve less toe front, but I would keep the toe out in the rear.


notice the trend?

slowvic

Zzyzx

I has been my experience that until you go more negative than 2 degrees, camber has a small effect on tire wear, especially the way I drive. On the other hand, small toe differences make big differences in tire wear.

Zzyzx

true Toe adjustmenst will eat tires quicker then camber adjustments. (thats the big reason NSXs eat rear tires.... Honda Dialed in a bit of toe in to stabilize the rear end in the corners, the side effect...... it eats rear tires like candy).

but we are talking about Maximum handling.... if you dont want the extra wear, 0 toe front and back would be a comprimise.

slowvic

I will experiment with my alignment more next season.

Zzyzx

update on the setup...

As noted above, I am seriously liking how the car is handling right now, so much that I'm going to leave it this way for a while. So Far I've noticed 2 things, one is the noticable reduction in understeer, to the point that it jsut about doesn't exzist. Oversteer is just a throttle lift away.... . on the down side, Ive noticed that I have to drive smoother to not get said oversteer in a corner (Gives me a reason to perfect my Left foot braking). No biggie, I needed to be smoother any way. Also, There seems to be a reduction in spinning the inside tire on corner exits... so accelerating out of corners is a bit better too......

I cant wait till February..... First autocross of the season Locally.... Of course theres allways the National event in January!!!!!!!!

jdmb16ahatch

iTrader: (3)

theres a guy from honda-tech names Driven on most boards hes from las vegas too has a yellow crx does solo 2 there i believe....ima disconect mines and see how it is with my setup maybe ill like it i could use some more oversteer

Zzyzx

^^ I've driven that car.....^^^

One hell of a ride, of course he neglected to tell me that it has a mean case of Throttle lift oversteer and I spun it going through some offset gates........
this would be the car I believe..

jdmb16ahatch

iTrader: (3)

yeh thats Kam's car

Zzyzx

you should ask him where in Scotland did his asian *** come from....

He does a pretty good scottish accent when he announces at events.