Legal Questions and the LawPost your questions about the law, or speeding tickets or anything legal. Disclaimer: 7thGenCivic.com and it's moderators are not lawyers or police officers (unless otherwise noted) and can in no way be held responsible for any advice or action
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I have a question: me and a friend of mine were playing a little game of "catch up" late at night not that long ago. It was about 1:30AM and we just got out of a bar, we weren't drunk but a little buzzed, all we had was 3 beers each over a span of 41/2 hours. So the street we were on was completely empty and then all of a sudden a cop comes out of no where. I had my window down and never heard a siren. I was in front and my friend was to my left and behind me, the cop comes up after him. He slams on his breaks and pulls over, when he does the cop asks him about ME and who I was, he said he didn't know anything but told me later that the cop wanted to pull me over too. I honestly didn't know I was supposed to get pulled over, because by the time I looked back in my mirror I saw my friend and the cop already pulling over a distance behind me so I thought the cop was only going after him. I'm a little paranoid now that the cop may have gotten my L Plate number and I'd be charge with evasion or something. Can I get a little input here? OH btw, I'm not playing "catch up" anymore cuz I'll paranoid now.
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I have a question: me and a friend of mine were playing a little game of "catch up" late at night not that long ago. It was about 1:30AM and we just got out of a bar, we weren't drunk but a little buzzed, all we had was 3 beers each over a span of 41/2 hours. So the street we were on was completely empty and then all of a sudden a cop comes out of no where. I had my window down and never heard a siren. I was in front and my friend was to my left and behind me, the cop comes up after him. He slams on his breaks and pulls over, when he does the cop asks him about ME and who I was, he said he didn't know anything but told me later that the cop wanted to pull me over too. I honestly didn't know I was supposed to get pulled over, because by the time I looked back in my mirror I saw my friend and the cop already pulling over a distance behind me so I thought the cop was only going after him. I'm a little paranoid now that the cop may have gotten my L Plate number and I'd be charge with evasion or something. Can I get a little input here? OH btw, I'm not playing "catch up" anymore cuz I'll paranoid now.
If the officer observed the both of you commiting an offense, he may have attempted to pull over both of you. You can play stupid and get away with this, however in some states it's required to slow down and yield to an emergency vehicle. Although in your situation it would be hard to prove that you intentionally didn't stop. However, an officer can pull over your friend and then decide to pursue you instead since you didn't stop and then have another officer back him up to stop your friend. If the officer would have gotten your friend to stop/slow down and pull over then sped up to catch you, he could have then motioned to your friend to pull over from outside his vehicle. An officer can stop as many cars as he feels needed as long as he can prove the operators were in violation. However, if you didn't get pulled over that night you have nothing to worry about.
HERE IS THE BEST TRAFFIC STOP ADVICE YOU WILL EVER HEAR:
KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT, ADMIT NOTHING! SAY AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE, AND GET A G*DDAM LAWYER!!!!!!!!!!
Damn how I wish someone would have smacked me upside the head and told me that when I was a teenager!
When I was younger, I had all these same problems that so many of you are complaining about, constantly being dogged by the local police, often just because I was in an attention getting car or because I looked young and "suspicious", some cases were blatant outright harassment, some cases looking back they had valid reasons to stop me, in any case, I was getting a LOT - A LOT - of tickets, developing a first name basis with the officers who most enjoy giving me tickets is not a good time. Getting on a first name basis with the Judges was even less so. Getting my license suspended was even less so. Waiting 5 years for a clean driving record, or trying to wait, and getting myself more tickets instead, well you get the idea...
Here is the one lesson I have learned now that I am older, and if you will do this one thing, it will save your azz more times than any single other thing you could ever do - GET A DAMN GOOD TRAFFIC LAWYER!!!!
Don't assume lawyers are too expensive! I never even tried to get one when I was young for exactly that reason, and boy how I regret that assumption. You can get a traffic lawyer who could spring Gotti out of a ticket for less than most of you are spending on your average set of springs or some fiberglass this or that. SERIOUSLY. Maybe a hundred bucks, maybe one fifty, but really, how much is it worth for you to have a virtual guarantee your case will be dismissed if it is in any way possible? If your lawyer is good, for that simple fee he will get your case dismissed, deferred or otherwise deflected from your record.
Don't assume you can always argue your own case! Yes that is an option available to you, but believe me, years of bruised experience and observation of others have proven time and again that YOU could go into court and argue on the exact same points as your attorney would, and you will more likely get the shaft, where your attorney would more likely get you off. Courts are biased, face it. Just like you have to play by the cop's rules when he stops you if you don't want to aggravate the situation, you have to play by the court's rules when you've gotta go there, and that means, BRING A GOOD LAWYER!
I can not even begin to tell you how many of my own cases I argued in traffic court over the years. Did I win some? Sure. I won more than the average person probably would have. But guess what? I LOST some too, and every one you lose is going on your record and in the long run will end up costing you in more ways than throwing down $150 for a good lawyer who knows his sh*t and will fight like a rabid pit bull for you! Age and experience have taught me the old saying is true, that a man who goes to court representing himself has a fool for an attorney!
Don't know where to go for a good traffic lawyer? The smartest move you could make is to start calling around to all the local taxi cab and limousine shops - ASK THEM WHO THEY USE!! Call the cab company or the limo dispatcher and just ask them who their shop uses to defend all their drivers. WHEN YOU START HEARING THE SAME LAWYERS' NAMES OVER AND OVER, THAT'S YOUR GUY.
Ever since I decided to stop fighting my own cases, I HAVE NEVER LOST ONE. NOT A SINGLE ONE. And some of them, let me tell you, I swear I myself thought there was no way I would get out of it. That traffic lawyer of mine went in there to court with me and I didn't even have to break a sweat. I dressed neatly and just sat there quietly and politely while he tossed up book after book after book of legal codes to the judge and demonstrated exactly how there was no way they could hold me to it. I walked out of there clean and easy and shook his hand!
Trust me. Set aside $200. Make it your traffic lawyer emergency fund. Just skip the next "JDM" mod or two and sock that money aside for the next time you need him. If you keep your mouth SHUT during the stop, and call a good traffic lawyer immediately afterward, you've done yourself the biggest favor you could possibly do - besides not getting busted to begin with
Last edited by seattlex19; 10-03-2005 at 05:59 AM.
A couple more things, DO NOT EVER EVER EVER indicate to the officer who has stopped you that you intend to FIGHT the ticket, and DO NOT EVER EVER EVER indicate to the officer that you intend to get a lawyer.
This is because most court cases do not come up right away, and most officers are very busy between the time they issue you a ticket and the time you might have to go to court over it. If you give no indication that you will be doing anything but just silently going home to pay the ticket, they are not as likely to take hardcore notes of the interaction, they are not as likely to write as detailed a report, they are not as likely to recall critical details when your court day finally arrives. If you tip them off, you just shot yourself in the foot, because from that moment on, they will note every last little thing about the stop in detail for later use because they know you will be trying to fight it.
You want the officer to perceive yours as the most "routine" a traffic stop as you can manage. Just say absolutely as little as possible about anything, answer simple yes or no questions about your "name, rank, serial number" with simple yeses or nos, and answer just about anything else as vaguely and briefly as possible.
I also must respectfully disagree with the earlier advice someone posted about 'confidently say yes' if asked whether you know (insert here, how fast you were going, etc etc) ANYTHING. If you say yes, you can then be held in court to answer to it and that may not always be to your advantage. If you simply say "I'm not sure" and nothing more, then that leaves your attorney more potential room to maneuver (especially in radar/laser speeding cases) and he can always turn an "I'm not sure" into a YES or NO far easier than the other way around
If you are not sure how to respond to ANY particular question simply say "I'M NOT SURE" PERIOD, or calmly (but not arrogantly) say nothing at all, if you feel you can do that without the officer becoming upset. Your goal is to AVOID sticking your foot in your mouth with the officer in any way that might close any doors you may need to use in court later on
And for God's sake don't get cocky!!!!! SAVE IT. If all goes well there will be plenty of opportunity for you to be cocky as hell AFTER you get home from the courthouse with a win
PS: For those of you in the Seattle/King County WA area, let me hook you up:
Doug & Jim Silva - ATTORNEYS AT LAW: (206)772-2225
"Ferrari" traffic lawyers at "Civic" prices!
Last edited by seattlex19; 10-03-2005 at 08:30 AM.
Great points. If you make the effort to piss off the cop, plan on him showing up to court just so you can't wiggle out of the fine. However, in reference to saying the least amount possible, this is not always true. If I stop someone for speeding and provided the driver wasn't going more than 18 over the limit, 9 out of 10 times I will let you slide if (a) your honest and straight forward with me and show me the type of respect that you wish to receive and (b) you have a fairly clean driving record. If you have had 2 tickets in the past year for speeding, then your going to have a 3rd. If you have had a speeding ticket in the past 3 months, then you will have another. Every officer is different, depending on their attitude and what they have been through that day. Cops just like everyone else have bad days and on a bad day people tend to be a little less forgiving. Hell, I don't even attempt to pull someone over for speeding unless your at least 15 over in the city, unless kids are playing in the neighborhood. Your best advice is to be honest, although don't admit to anything other than what you know you have already been caught for. (singing like a bird will only get you into more trouble) Secondly, be polite, turn off the music and give the officer the same amount of respect you think you deserve.
I also forgot to mention that I as well strongly recommend a good traffic lawyer!!! A cop doesn;t care wether he wins or looses (unless he's a rookie), regardless they are getting paid to appear in court. Granted you might have to pay the same amount to an attorney as you would the traffic fine, but the offense isn't on your record. Remeber what I said earlier about having a clean record and catching a break. Plus you won't have to sit through some boring traffic class on your day off and your insurance company will never know about the ticket, thus meaning your premiums will stay lower. Paying a little more to an attorney to fight your case will save you hundreds in the long run. When I was a teenager I didnt know about this advice either and after a wreckless operation ticket for street racing, 2 speeding tickets and 2 seat belt violation all within 3 years, I was paying over $70 more a month on liability car insurance for a 10 year old car than I do now for full coverage on a 3 year old car. You do the math with an estimated fee of $150 for an attorney for each charge is $1050 in attorney fees. Or paying an extra $70 a month for around 4 years until my driving record cleared up ends up $3360, I don't know about you but 2g's is that much more for your k20 swap you keep dreaming of.
Thank you very much officer! And thanks for the clarification on your first point too, about taking into account the SEVERITY of what you think you've been stopped for. If you got pulled over because you have a license plate light out etc or because you were going 5 or 6 over, clearly you don't need to be AS stone faced and silent as if you were say busted going 20 over with no seatbelt on and changing lanes without a blinker
However, I STILL default to the position of saying nothing or as little as possible. My personal experience dealing with my attorneys has been that even the slightest acknowledgement of guilt can and will wreck your shot in court.
Where you said, "don't admit to anything other than what you know you have already been caught for." - A good lawyer would ESPECIALLY have you not admit to what you know you've been caught for! If you admit it you've sunk yourself right there.
What they've always advised me to do is to be polite, be apologetic INSTEAD of outright acknowledging guilt. Like if you stop me and say "you know you did not come to a complete stop back there?", I say to you politely and sincerely "I'm sorry, officer" - NOT "I KNOW" or "You're right". This is because an apology is not an outright admission of guilt, yet is likely to have the same effect on the officer if said the right way (in other words an apology is about as likely to get you out of a relatively minor ticket as an admission of guilt, without BEING an admission of guilt)
It is always a case by case judgment call as to how to conduct yourself and it largely depends (as you said) on the severity of what you've done and the mood of the officer that you are dealing with. Either one can be a dealbreaker to the whole "let's just be honest men here" thing in my opinion. Meaning if you did something very minor but the cop seems to be a rude jerk, just say nothing then, he's probably going to write you up whether you are forthcoming or not. Or, if you've done something relatively serious, and the cop seems a little TOO forgiving or nice, as someone mentioned earlier, that is one way an officer can get you to relax into saying too much!
In any event my golden rule is, "When in doubt... say nothing, or as little as possible". Most good lawyers would tell you the same thing.
One more thing that occurred to me about when I said don't EVER EVER indicate you're going to GET a lawyer - I want to clarify that I only mean that statement to apply generally to "traffic stops" (as that was the topic of this thread).
In other words, if you were involved in some kind of car accident instead, and that is how the police become involved, well DEFINITELY say as little as possible until you have yourself an attorney, but in a situation like that, it WOULD probably be best to just come out and politely tell the officer, "I wish not to make any statements until I have consulted with my attorney". Most cops would still like you to say SOMETHING about what happened, even if something generic like "he was there, I was here, we hit" but only a lousy cop would not understand you wanting to speak to your lawyer before saying something that might incriminate you! Don't let anyone pressure you into saying something without your legal counsel's advice!!
Last edited by seattlex19; 10-03-2005 at 08:10 PM.
just wondering, how much does a speeding ticket cost in CA? i'm guessing it's like $270 but not sure.
i remember this one time though. back when i was driving the '85 sentra. i was on the freeway heading to an electronics store with my two friends and as i was about to make the exit some fast red car cut and overtook me. and then that cop car pulled up in front too (so from front to back it was red car, police car, and then me). well anyways i didn't know what to do back then and i wasn't sure if i had to pull over too because the cop was in front of me with its sirens so i panicked and pulled over anyway. next thing you know another cop car pulls up behind me. my friends are then like making fun of me about how i got owned. and then they said i was a dumbass for pulling over. they said you don't pullover if the cop car is in front of you with its sirens on. but anyways, it was too late because there was another cop car behind me. well anyways my friends told me to just leave so i did. i was really scared because the first cop knew i was innocent so he probably didn't care but maybe the 2nd cop was thinking i was trying to get away in a slow car. LOL.
but anyways, nice info. i'll need to memorize all that
Aren't most speeding tickets scaled on how fast you were going? I don't know about Cali, but that is how it works in Washington. Meaning, 5 over = $47, 10 over = $68, 15 over = $149 etc (I made the $s up but you get the idea). Also, at least here in WA, traffic fines double in construction zones, school zones and some other areas
Here is a little tale of encouragement for those of you out there who may be on the fence about whether or not you should mess with having yourself a traffic lawer when you can just 'do it yourself'...
I just returned home from traffic court
This was over a speeding ticket I got on my way to work on the freeway a couple months ago. When the State Trooper pulled me over, I turned on my hazard lights, pulled to the RIGHT HAND shoulder, rolled down BOTH windows (they're tinted, and I wanted the officer to have no reason to be nervous when approaching), turned off the radio, and waited with my hands on the steering wheel where he could see them. When he asked for my license, reg & ins I then gathered them up and handed them to him.
He asked if I knew why he stopped me. I said "NO, officer, I don't."
He said, "Well I clocked you going 80mph over that last hill, this is a 60mph zone." He waited for my reaction - I SAID NOTHING!!
He eventually said, "Were you aware how fast you were going??"
I said, "I AM NOT SURE" (thus giving no testimony against myself)
He proceeded to write me a big fat ticket and sent me on my way. THE MINUTE I GOT OFF WORK, I drove straight to my attorney's office, walked in, handed them $120 and the ticket, and forgot about it. Literally forgot about it!
My lawyer and I talk about things like "how ya doin? I see you got a new car" (my lawyer just got an 8th gen Civic btw! Good man) We don't even talk about the case anymore because they already know I will only ever say the same thing: "I don't care what you have to do- keep it off my record"
So the lawyer sends me a letter a few weeks ago letting me know when court is. I showed up today, right when my lawyer did. Shook his hand, talked about our Civics and walked into court. Not one word was spoken about the case or how he planned to attack it. I just sat back and when they called my name watched him earn the money!
To make matters harder he was in front of a brand new judge he had never met before, and she was not in a very friendly mood either. She skewered a few people who showed up representing themselves and then it was my turn.
First thing out of his mouth is that he's filing a motion to suppress the evidence against me based on the fact that in the Trooper's submitted report he failed to state whether I was approaching or retreating from his vehicle when he shot the LIDAR at me.
The judge was like, "wha??"
She asked, "What difference does that make??" which is where a lawyerless person would have been sunk, because she obviously didn't know, had a look like she had already concluded he was BSing, and had that been me saying that, would clearly have been ready to stick it to me.
He's like "WELL, your honor, I'm glad you asked!" and proceeds to inform her that legal precedent exists wherein it has been clearly defined that a LIDAR unit will, due to a number of atmospheric effects concerning the bending of light as it strikes a moving object, give a different reading if pointed at an object moving toward it than it would if moving away from it.
She looked confused. He continued.
He cited specific examples where it had been established that a LIDAR unit may also give a negative speed reading if striking an object moving away, and pointed out that the officer also did not indicate whether the speed he had written on my ticket had been determined via a positive or negative reading on the unit, therefore concluding there was no accurate way for the court to establish my true speed from the testimony of the officer alone
AND SINCE I HAD SAID I DID NOT KNOW MY SPEED, the officer had nothing to write about that in the report either, therefore leaving the court NO WAY AT ALL to PROVE the accusation.
The judge looked at my lawyer for a long second, kind of nodded her head, and said, "The court finds that this infraction was not committed. NEXT!"
