eric777

My apologies in advance if I didn't post this in the correct forum. My wife drives a 2004 Honda Civic LX to and from work. This is our commuter car which had around 180,000 miles. Recently, the engine started making a hard knocking noise which was determined by a Honda Dealership to be an engine which needed to be replaced.

I am looking at replacing the engine myself but need some general questions answered. From the research I have done, it would appear I need a replacement D17A1. Does this sound correct? Our VIN shows the 6th digit as a "1" as well. Automatic transmission.

I have read some generic information regarding the Japan low mileage engines. Are there any concerns that I need to be aware of if I purchased one? I want to make sure motor mounts any other complications are known ahead of time.

I would like to research and order the engine online. Other than the common search engine results, are there any sources for the engine that I should look at? As far as shipping, I live in the pacific northwest.

How many labor hours can I expect if I were to take this into a professional garage to have the work completed?

Any other advice?

I'm sure these questions have been answered throughout the forum in various forms but I really appreciate sincere answers. I've been searching and reading various tips for a few days.

Eric

Aetoc

iTrader: (1)

Well, I can answer a few of the questions:

You're exact engine match is correct, a D17A1. Although a D17A2 will fit and give you a bit more pep, it would require the ECU to be replaced with an A2 ECU, so more labor to be done. Ordering from Japan would work out fine, but local scrapyards have been known to have these engines for as little as $300-$400.

Typically, a decent shop should be able to do the swap in less than 6 hours from what I've seen.

Hope this helps.

Gunner

^ agree the engine type is correct. As where to buy you can call the dealer and check with them but that is if you want brand new and will cost more..Like mention check your local scrap yards they usually have some good motors..As for online its hard to say where to order from wish i could help more with that..

eric777

Thank you for the information. At this time, I am not looking to make the car more have more pep. I'm just trying to make my wife happy by having her car repaired. She's currently driving my rig

Gunner

I hear ya..i hated having to share a vehicle..

sl33pyriceboi

iTrader: (3)

eric, do u have a LX? what year? US or canadian model?

if u have a D17A1, i would just replace it with the same thing. getting a D17A2 (the EX version) will require a new ECU (D17A2 ecu) but the differences go on from there.

for example the D17A2 has ABS and will throw u all sorts of CEL codes (check engine light) unless u convert all hubs (4 corners) to the EX that has the ABS sensor, the u gotta buy all 4 ABS sensor and wiring it accordingly.

^thats just one of the problems you will occur. the difference between the A1 and A2 (in term of power or mpg) is very negligible/insignificant.


bottom line, not worth the trouble to get the D17A2 if u have a D17A1

eric777

sl33pyriceboi - We have a 2004 Civic LX US model.

Based on the information in the post, I contacted a local wrecking yard today and found out they have two D17A1 engines in stock. Both have around 90,000 miles. They were tested and claim to have a compression of 200 even and 205 even on the other.

When I called around for pricing on engine swaps, several of the businesses stated they replace the rear seal, water pump, and replace the timing belt.

Are these things that I should plan on doing during this swap? Also, the guy in the wrecking yard claimed these swaps were the easist of engines to swap. He stated a mechanic would be able to make the swap in around 6 hours. Seems a little quick based on what I know.

Is there anything else I should check or replace once the engine is removed? Any tips for removal to make things easier? I have the use of a overhead heavy duty winch to assist with removal if need be.

MindBomber

Yes, absolutely, replace the timing belt, seals, water pump and tensioner. There's a DIY on the site showing the procedure, you can follow it with the engine out of the car to give yourself more room to work.

sl33pyriceboi

iTrader: (3)

i would buy a "timing belt kit" online and have the mech install it while he is swapping out the engine.

this is what id advise to do with the engine swap (have these things done and ur good to go):

1. timing belt kit
-timing belt
-power steering belt
-ac compressor belt
-water pump + water pump tasket
-tensioner
-idler bearing
2. oil change
3. automatic transmission fluid change
4. new spark plugs
5. new OEM honda coolant (make sure mech uses oem coolant, its blue color)

sl33pyriceboi

iTrader: (3)

here is the complete timing belt kit:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/AISIN-Water-...#ht_1656wt_965

if u do not use that link, and if u decide to buy ur own, make sure u are using OEM honda stuff or stuff made for oem manufactures. u dont want to get low grade/quality china parts when it comes to a timing belt kit

eric777

I have about 90% of the engine stripped and ready for removal. I've been following the Honda service manual and feel pretty comfortable with where I am at.

My question now is in regards to the actual physical removal of the engine. The Honda manual calls for removal from the bottom of the vehicle. This is not practical based on my situation. (I have read this scenario posted in another thread but it was not very informative)

Is there anything additional I should consider when removing this engine / transmission from the top side of the vehicle? Aside from hoisting (etc) is there anything mechanical that I need to or should consider? Anything to make the job easier?

ezone

I turn wrenches for a living so I have all the neat tools and access to the neat equipment to do the job right.

I bet you can get the engine out from the top, but I really have no idea if the engine will go out the top, never tried it on that gen.

It is meant to go out the bottom. I do the trans and engine as a unit.
In the shop, I get it ready to drop out, set the drivetrain on a wheeled movers dolly (with boards to level the whole thing), and lift the body up leaving the drivetrain on the dolly.

IF you have a manual trans, you will either have to yank the trans out first, or pull engine and trans out as a complete unit.

An automatic trans needs far less clearance to separate it from the engine. Use a floor jack to support the trans and control its angle. Don't let the trans drop or let the torque converter fall out.
Remove the belt driven accessories (Alt/AC/PS) and remove the crank pulley to gain some clearance.

Aetoc

iTrader: (1)

I've seen the D17 come out through the top of the engine bay, though I haven't swapped a Honda myself, so I can't tell you exactly how it's done, but if you have an engine leveler on the hoist, you should just have to angle the tranny down and wiggle the engine up.

ssbond008

I also am needing my engine replaced in my 2004 Civic LX, but there's not a chance of me doing it, so I'm going to have to have a mechanic do it. Tonight I found this site as I want to educate myself about some of these things. I'm very scared that I am going to get ripped off. I do not mean to hi-jack the thread, but since it is about the same engine I hoped I could jump on board; and maybe the OP has some valuable info that can help me as well.

As I've called around places I've gotten several quotes, and most of the engines from scrap yards I'm finding have around 100 k miles on them. Do I even need to concern myself with mileage, or should I look simply at the compression? Can I rely on the scrap yards and auto shops to give me honest info about mileage and compression levels?

I thought I'd read that the max compression on the '04 Civic LX engine was something like 185? ... then I read this thread and the poster said the engine he was looking at had over 200? Can someone help me understand the levels?

Clearly I don't yet know much, but I'm interested in learning. If some of your guys could give me any help with these questions I would appreciate it very much.

Thanks guys for your help and patience.

ezone

Stop right there.
The price from a junkyard is only one price. You get that if you carry the engine out to your garage and do the work yourself.
When you have a shop do the work, they will set their own price on the parts, that reflects their costs and their necessary profit, and allows something for the chance of having to warranty the job. If you bring in your own parts, the labor rate goes up in some way to cover their necessary profit. (CODB)
You can't do the work yourself, you don't know the business, don't bitch about prices. Do you work for free? I know I don't.

Prices for the job will be all over the map. Depends on the cost of the parts, how much work you want to do before the engine goes in, and labor rates. Plus incidentals, fluids, and anything that breaks during the job. Nobody can predict much of what COULD happen.


Compression test may or may not be any indication of a good engine. The best choice is to get the engine from a running car, and that isn't always possible.
100k is nothing if an engine was cared for. 100k can be the end-of-life for an engine what wasn't cared for.
Nobody knows the history of a car that made it to the junkyard.
ALL they know is what they see now or what notes were made before the car was dismantled.
Look for sludge on the valvetrain and head when you pull the valve cover off. Sludge is bad, very bad. Send it back, try again.
Put a fresh timing belt and water pump in it, cheap insurance. Adjust the valves.
Pray to the deity of your choosing.

Everyone in the chain has ample opportunity to lie to you.
Used parts are always a crapshoot (and used part prices reflect those odds), so deal with people and businesses that are reputable, trustworthy, and will back up their parts and work with an honest written warranty.

Compression test is something most ordinary junkyards here aren't going to do. Good yards do it routinely. A good yard won't knowingly sell a bad engine.
While a bad comp test is obviously bad, a good compression test may not be any indication of a good engine.
It is only one test. One aspect that can be tested. Other stuff you just have to hear (bearing noise/knock, exhaust manifold leaks, etc.).
(If you go to a Proctologist and he says everything up in there is good, does that mean you are healthy? No. That was only one test.)

The best choice is to get the engine from a good running car, and that isn't always possible.
The engine would have to be able to be cranked in order to obtain a compression test. A GOOD one will have 185 to 210 psi when done with a good hot battery, on an engine that has been running and is at operating temperature, and even then that will vary with the cranking speed. More important is EVEN compression, well under 10% variation between cylinders.
Again, a good percentage of the engines in a junkyard aren't in a position to be run to get accurate test results.

It's really tough to give a crash course to someone that knows nothing about this. These are random thoughts. YMMV.

eric777

This worked like a charm. The engine comes out the top with the transmission attached by angling it down to remove. I've ran into a few snags in moving parts from my old engine to the replacement engine. The plastic brake booster fitting on the intake of the the replacement engine was broken when I got it from the salvage yard. (just noticed this prior to reinstall) I order the intake gasket and will switch this over from my old engine. I ran into a broken front engine mount. I found a replacement part but haven't yet removed the old mount. (The bolt seems to be a pain in the butt)

I also haven't been able to get the bolt out yet to start the timing belt replacement. I attempted to use an impact wrench but it didn't budge.

ezone

You need the tool to hold the crank pulley. Should be the 50mm version.

eric777

I need some guidance. I understand that troubleshooting a car on a forum isn't an easy task but I am looking for some general ideas.

I have placed the new (used) engine into the car and tested it out today. I noticed a check engine light was on and a flashing D for the transmission. The engine has a fairly loud deep throated exhaust coming from the exhaust manifold area. It is also dented in. It appears this could have been a result of the prior vehicle being involved in a collision. I plan on replacing the working manifold from my old engine with this one (with new gasket). It needs to be done and I hope this fixes the engine light and noise issue.

Now for the transmission issue. I'm not really sure where to start. The transmission doesn't seem to be engaging properly in drive mode. (the fluids have been changed and are at proper levels) When I accelerate, the transmission to not engage or engages slowly. It feels like I am driving a go-cart for lack of better term. When I shift the car into reverse, it engages and feels like it should. The car also seems to accelerate close to properly while in 2. D just doesn't do what it should do. Any ideas? I checked under the car and there is no oil leaking.

Milkey

Could be the shift solenoids going (hence the car not shifting and flashing D is the tranny telling you it's about to die). You can probably pick up a used tranny for pretty cheap. Go get the codes checked at autozone or advanced auto, they do it for free.

ezone

You forgot something or broke wires on one of the trans connections. Flashing D light is trans codes, the fastest thing to do is read all the codes codes and check whatever it says.

If it sets trans code without driving the car, it's electrical. Usually something left off.
VSS wire? THAT'S one **** that I usually forget about on Accords because it's hard to see and impossible to reach it.

Also look for swapped connectors on the solenoids.

eric777

I disconnected the negative, removed and replaced the exhaust manifold with new gasket and got rid of the "throaty" engine sound.

I reconnected the negative and turned the car only to the on position (not started). I noticed that the D was flashing before being driven. Based on what Ezone posted, it sounds like an electrical problem. I started the car and drove it around bit. It felt like it wasn't shifting at all. It did go into R and D but there was not noticeable change when shifted from D to D3 or 2.

I had the codes read at Autozone. I was informed the only code that returned was P2770.

The print out reads that it is an "open in the torque converter clutch solenoid valve circuit".

1 - Open or short circuit condition
2 - Poor electrical connection
3 - Faulty Torque Converter Clutch Solenoid

Would this solenoid issue cause what I described?

Ezone - I see you have information about a Harley Davidson posted under your name. Is that your ride? I've ridden a Road King for the last three years.

lazlong

Yes. P2770- open in TC solenoid circuit. First look for unplugged connectors on the tranny and a bad wire or connection at the solenoid. It's a 2 terminal connector on top of the tranny. If that's not it then measure resistance between the two terminals of the solenoid. The standard is 12-25 ohms. Otherwise your looking at an open somewhere.

EDIT: If you want to see if the solenoid is actually working connect terminal 2 to battery positive and terminal 1 to battery negative. You should hear clicking.

Sorry about the pic orientation, photobucket does what it wants sometimes. lol

ezone

You didn't replace the trans, the solenoid didn't go bad while it was out of the car. It's a wire problem.

The TCC solenoid is right on top of the trans. It's under the wiring bundle.

The ground wires attach right next to the top radiator hose on the engine. Make sure you didn't forget them.


Nice.
Yeah, I'm one of those annoying dirtbags.
'Sup, bro!
I've got a fleet of cars too.

eric777

I forgot to plug the TCC solenoid adapter. I plugged in the connector and the transmission worked great and got rid of the flashing D and check engine light.

Only one last issue to go. (I hope). I let the engine warm up for around ten minutes and noticed that I am not getting any interior heat (not even warm). I thought that I might have a bad thermostat so I replaced it. This didn't seem to fix the problem. The upper and lower main radiator hose were both hot to the touch after the engine ran for at least ten minutes. The engine temperature was below the half way line as per the gauge. I took the car out and drove it around. Still only cold air.

I was able to reach to the back of the engine and touch both heater hoses. They were cold to the touch. It worked prior to the engine swap. What am I missing?

ezone

You sure the heater water valve is wide open?

The heater core is airlocked. Big air bubble in it. You may have to follow the hoses and remove them at their highest points to let the air out.

I have done it a few different ways,

A Uview airlift tool (http://www.amazon.com/UView-550000-A.../dp/B0002SRH5G) evacuates the system to eliminate air pockets before filling with coolant. Works good for me on most cars, and can help find weak parts or leaks in the system.

One that's easy for me and works almost every time-- is to disconnect the heater hoses at the engine, use a garden hose to power through the heater system and leave it completely full, pinch off and reconnect hoses to the engine without losing any liquid, top off cooling system, release the pinched hoses.


Get the nose of the car as high in the air as possible......

Another is to use the funnel-fill tool (http://www.amazon.com/Lisle-24610-Sp.../dp/B001A4EAV0) in the neck of the radiator, fill with coolant, then burp the air out of the heater hoses by loosening them from their fittings at the engine. You will have to move hoses up and down (with a purpose) to work air bubbles out, and pay attention to where the high spots are in the heater system, since air gets trapped in the high spots.


It takes water pressure and volume (flow) to push trapped air bubbles out of any high spots. The water pump doesn't make enough of either at normal RPM driving.

May work but probably won't: Fill the system, drive the car, run engine to redline several times. Refill radiator, try again.
I did an Integra swap into a 93 Civic, this worked good because of the like 8 grand redline on the Integra engine. A regular Civic engine doesn't rev high enough for this to work very often.


Once you get heat from the heater, put it on DASH VENTS and turn the fan on FULL BLAST. Check dash vent temperature at like 3000 rpm, should be HOT like 160-180 degrees. Now let the engine idle and recheck temperature after a minute or two. The temperature shouldn't drop more than about 10 degrees at idle. If the temp drops a bunch at idle, then you still have air in it.

Also make sure you are using 50/50 mix antifreeze. Pure 100% antifreeze is crappy for heat transfer.


HTH

eric777

Is this the valve that is on one of the heater hoses at the back top (firewall side) of the engine? I noticed one of the hoses went into a valve that has some sort of open / close pull wire coming from it.

I'll give your suggestions a try first thing in the morning.

ezone

That's it. The wire is connected to the heater controls. Make sure the wire and arm move when you switch between hot and cold.

eric777

I have to say that I am a bit embarrassed. I purchased the funnel fill tool and spent about 4 hours (on and off) trying to get the air out of the @#$@@#$ coolant system. I tried most everything and finally decided that I would take off the air clearer housing and resonator to get a closer look at the heater hoses. After the car was warmed up, I noticed the hoses were only warm about two inches into the hoses from the engine.

I decided to take the heater hoses off and put some low pressure air through the heating system to see if it comes out the other side. While attempting to do this, I discovered that a "cap plug" was stuck inside the heater hose"flow in" side.

After all of this, a stinking "cap plug". I must have missed it when I changed the engines out and not realized the wrecking yard placed that on the coolant port.

Works like a charm, now.

sl33pyriceboi

iTrader: (3)

good to hear eric. keep us posted of your progress

lazlong

Stupid jerks! How dare they plug everything! lol.