cmiller_01ex

now i have a question. you say you can put in a stage one cam and call it a day. i dont want my car to be speed racer but i want it to do something when i push the gas. so what if i did a stage one with intake headers and full exhaust? just somethings small like that. i have a project that will be quick i just want my car to have more spunk. and you 100% have to use k pro with a stage 2?

cmiller_01ex

and i swear canda and tn must me the same. i cant find any 7th gens or any k's here. and here is in clarksville and nashville.

MindBomber

No, you don't need k-pro, you could use AEM EMS, which is more expensive and not suited as well to the task.

When stage 2 cams were first released hondata was still shunning the d17, so the only options were piggy backs and EMS, since EMS was fairly new as well, everyone tried tuning them with the piggy backs they already had. No one could get it to run right, stalling below 2k rpm was a common problem.

For stage 1 discussion, check out the stage 1 cam thread, it's stickied.

cmiller_01ex

alright thanks. and one more question. i still have an auto is it even worth trying to do the na build? i dont want to swap trannys just yet.

MindBomber

You'll never make enough power n/a on a d17 that the auto trans will become a massive stumbling block, only if you go turbo would it be necessary to do an a-t-m swap.

cmiller_01ex

whew and reading the other forum i think i'll be investing into the stage one here pretty soon. =) thanks for the help man.

Aetoc

iTrader: (1)

Just an FYI that no one else pointed out:

This is not true. We all know that the d16 intake mani fits the d17, because it's been done, and I'm going to be doing it myself.

MindBomber

I think Paul's point was that the intake manifold from a d16 doesn't bolt directly to the d17, because yes it fits, but only after extensive modification.

Aetoc

iTrader: (1)

Okay, that's understandable. It will physically bolt up to the head is what I mean then.

Running Riot

Question.

I skimmed through most of the posts and my question is have you considered just swapping in a K20 from an EP3 and calling it a day? I mean the K20a's are reltively cheap now that it almost makes working a D17 almost laughable. If a grand or two is realistically in your budget why not just do that with some bolt ons?

Shift-E

A grand or two will not suffice for a k swap. At the end of the day you're looking to spend 5 grand all together from the odds and ends that go along with putting in a k. Engine management (k-pro) alone is 1k and you can't do it without that.

This thread is basically just for information about building the D17 because I know a lot of people would love to make the D17 go beyond everyone's expectations. It's not about making it fast, it's about what you've made. That's my opinion at least. Right now i'm not building or swapping because i don't have the funds, time, or resources. I'm just learning and asking for knowledge

Running Riot

apologies I was just curious figured i'd ask. The k swap will be around 5 grand if you get the k20zs but the K20as are so unpopular i've seen them sell for 5-700. But if building a 1.7 is you thing then thats great bro! keep us posted

MindBomber

You can get a k20a3 swap done without k-pro for under $3k, because you're absolutely correct, no one really wants those engines. The same is true for k24a1, a4 and a8. The issue with that swap is that they dyno at the same whp as a d17 with a stage 1 cam, the heads suck and don't flow well or have vtec on the exhaust cams, the internals will only handle up to 300whp~ boosted, and the rods aren't strong enough to raise the red line.

Shift-E

No apologies needed bro. As for the K20A's, I think it's the A3 only thats unpopular. The A2 is rated around 200bhp? the price is higher on those. But like mindbombe said, who wants to swap in an A3? lol I must admit, i wasn't aware the A3 could be swapped in for that much cheaper. I was expecting it to be around the 5 k range too for everything.

I've contemplated swaps before, but i still don't know what route I'll be taking when I finally decide to do something :/ People say if you're gonna keep the D17, then boost it for numbers. Don't do N/A. Well at the end of the day, you're gonna need to swap out the internals for a boost anyways, so might as well start as an N/A build then eventually boost, right? Does that make sense to you guys? :P

Running Riot

the a3 is a crap engine for performance taht is a given i just figured since he wan'ts shooting for massive numbers, the a3 with a close gear trans would give him the oomph that the d17 couldn't. Gearbox told me once that the D17s were capable of putting out bigger numbers than the d16 (im pretty sure he told me that once in another sohc NA thread) I dont know. imho any SOHC from 01-present is way to emissions friendly to put out anything close to reasonable power naturally aspirated. Even the new K series, although they respond well to mods in most cases, they are a bitch to work with bc of emissions. I'm happy working my b series to death. Good luck on the D17 endeavors I'm subscribed to see how it goes down.

Shift-E

Highest HP D17 i think was 482 whp? It was boosted though. I feel like a 160 whp N/A D17, which is doable with built internals and a stage 3 cam and some tuning i would think, would be a lot of fun. Then boosting in the future would be fun too lol.
However, this is a plan that im looking at starting most likely late 2012/2013. Once I'm done school and have a full time job with money. Ah the life of a student lol

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

if i said that i cant remember, its prolly true but requires lots of money. the older honda engines are stronger and can take more abuse before needing to be built. i would take a b series anyday and throw on a supercharger before i would ever try to build a d17.

MindBomber

You have a street car man, I wouldn't go with a stage 3 cam, the powerband on that cam is primarily at very high rpms. A stage 2 would suit your purpose much better. My personal suggestion, build the head, don't touch the bottom end. You're going to end up paying $2-3k for like 5-10whp added by bumping the compression and the parts won't transfer over to a turbo build.

If I were going to put money into a N/A d17 this is how it would go..
P&P head - $750
Supertech valvetrain - $300
Crower stage 2 cams - $350
K-pro cam gear - $175
d16y8 manifold - $150?
P&P TB - $250
UR pullies - $100 (used)
lightened flyweel - $250
DC Race Header - $450
Any header back exhaust -$550
FIPK intake -$125
50 shot of nitrous -$600
K-pro -$1000
Tuning ~ $500

~ Roughly $5500 and you'd make in the range of 155-160whp tuned, possibly hitting as high as 200whp in short bursts with the spray.

That's a pretty standard n/a build, you could save a bit of money here and there by buying used parts, but it's not going to come down that much. The result, a d17 making the same power as a good k-swap at roughly the same cost. Makes no sense to me, but to each their own

Shift-E

Why do you gotta break it down like that and kill a brothers dreams? lol Well I guess when you say it like that, it doesn't make much sense. I just feel bad cuz everyone gives up on the D17 so easily :P I really think it would be cool to say that I built a D17, because everyone swaps.
I want 2 civics, one to build and one to swap LOL.

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

the physical compression on turbo are different than the compression on NA builds. you will need to tear apart anyway, or engine will not run too well until turbo install due to lower physical compression required for boost.

03civict

Seems like the only engine management system that can be used is k-pro, but what about other piggy back systems like Apexi AFC NEO. could that system also be used if you were to be installing a stage 2 cam ?
http://www.dezod.com/pd_apexi_afc.cfm
Just curious, thanks to anyone for a reply.

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

erm...
a quick search on the forum would indicate the main problem with stages above 1 is the idle, which no other than hondata can address.

03civict

thanks for the reply, i did read something about not idling right, but i figured there had to be other reasons. Is it a high idle, not consistent or just too low so it stauls out? for a savings of roughly 1k i could handle a little high idle lol. But if its just too low so you would have to keep your foot on the gas then that would get old real fast.
Thanks for taking the time sdaidoji to reply to my ignorant questions

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

erm, like said, search...
mind you, they are very old threads, so try not to reply in them.

https://www.civicforums.com/forums/1...ock-d17a2.html

https://www.civicforums.com/forums/1...age-2-cam.html

https://www.civicforums.com/forums/7...xperience.html

Roxie

Not trying to add on to this thread, but WOW. This is definitely informative. Was going to n/a build my D series, but looks like I should consider a K series n/a build (in the garage), then swap when the K is done.

Just thought I'd give a personal thanks for the info

BlueEM2

iTrader: (1)

K swap = 7000 dollars... I can break it down for you if you want. If your lucky and wait for parts you can do it for 5000.

Roxie

Well, my "plan" consists of finding a cheap donor car, most likely from a salvage yard (RSX that was totaled/rear ended). Once car is in hand, I can then pull all the needed parts, and buy the rest (mounts, ems, etc.). That will give me a nice project, and on overall quicker car.

This way, I can also throw some engine upgrades into the K motor if I desire, without having to worry about down time (if it were in my car). Also, I won't be able to buy more than a couple parts at a time since I don't have a super high paying job. I don't mind waiting for a deal on parts, new or used.

One question I do have: anyone have a dyno sheet for a k series swap? I just haven't seen one posted, and would like to see what someone has actually achieved with their own swap.

MindBomber

I can grab a couple and post them up, are you looking for a stock or modified k-series swaps?

A bone stock K-series dynos between 130-190whp depending on the specific engine, regardless of whether they're in a K-native chassis or swapped in.

A few k-swaps have been done for $2500 now excluding k-pro, since RSXs are starting to get old and parts are easier to find.

Roxie

I might do a slightly modified swap, but keep it naturally aspirated. No need for a turbo until I get myself settled into the car. I will build it internally a bit for one though, just to save some down time. I'm planning on getting a K20 since they're the most powerful, but I haven't decided yet. Just need to do some more research.

MindBomber

If you're going N/A you'd want a k24a4 or k24a2