MatrixShark

Check this thing out.



It's a twin rotor design running off of three motors and 15,000 watts. The manufacturers claim up to a 75HP increase. Here's the link:

http://www.boosthead.com/

It does have a 15 second limitation but that's plenty for a 1/4 mile run. They might not make one specifically for the civic but a custom fab might be possible.

CivicMexicano

iTrader: (4)

do not belive them, this is BS man....

bublik

iTrader: (2)

Not to be an *** but, are u kidding. Do you know how much forces is created if you send air through that thing. Those 15,000 watts will never turn that charger to force air into the engine. I am guessing those little motors will overheat from the excesive speed its going to be spinning from the engine sucking in the air. Dont even bother, its a joke.

Boosted2k2

iTrader: (3)

Someone already posted this before. Still crap lol. For $2000? At least I think the previous price was $3000, so someone must have realized that it wasn't worth it. Now it's time for them to realize it again.

bublik

iTrader: (2)

It cost 2 freakin K!!!!!!!! I can make that at home for 50 bucks no problem. its such a piece. If you represent the company thats selling these, then I bid you fare well from the automotive market. THat thinkg aint going to do anything. E-boost sucks.

RiceBuRNeR

iTrader: (3)

Honestly That thing should work, since its actualy a real SC being driven by electric motors.

Catalyst

iTrader: (2)

Those are 3 starter motors. Im sure they work fine. Its just the strain they put on your electrical system. You should see how bad my lights dim with my 3000 watt system, let alone 15,000

RiceBuRNeR

iTrader: (3)

If you look at the pics of there project car theres 2 extra batterys.

bublik

iTrader: (2)

It is a waste, bc I am guessing it runs off the alternator (eventually) and that works off a belt. The strain put on the alternator will take away so much more power than a real supercharger system. Its not worth it at all. Plus, your electrical system is not meant for that kind of pressure. Catalyst is right about that 15000 watts, thats insane power. You would have to get farad caps for the super charger. That sounds silly IMO.

Catalyst

iTrader: (2)

itll give you some, but in the end it will cost a lot.

Boosted2k2

iTrader: (3)

exactly. For what it gives you, might as well buy one of those Venom VCN systems. It'll do a lot more for you than that thing will at less of the price.

atsturbo

Geoff Knight here (boosthead.com) Some of you have posted questions and I will try to answer them about the ESC. The $3000 quoted is the projected cost of a complete kit including EVERYTHING a person would need. The $2000 is for the supercharger itself ONLY. Call Eaton and order an M62--you will spend $1200+. Have it S-ported--another $400. Get the CNC cut gears and housings designed and tested for thousands of hours. Find 2.5hp electric motors and have them rewound to make 6.5hp @ 12,000 rpm with 24V. Remember that you need three of those motors--not one. You will spend $5000 on just the supercharger alone. I know--I have done all of that.

Many people are not honest about what a complete turbo or supercharger system will cost. You may see a 'turbo kit' for $2000 or $3000, but if you get a REAL turbo kit--I mean with EVERYTHING you need, it will be $4000. You cant include a $150 ebay used intercooler in your discussion about a turbo kit for $2000, etc. Used parts, rebuilt parts, etc do not qualify for a REAL complete new kit.

Also keep in mind that I NEVER suggest that someone who owns a car--like most Hondas-- that are less expensive to get kits for than any other type of car, and has an available production supercharger or turbo kit should get the ESC unless they want something different. But if you own a car with NO kits available, then the ESC is a GREAT alternative to NOX.

Dont tell me or post to others that you 'know' someone who built a complete high end turbo kit for $2000. That is just plain false. I designed and built over 3000 turbo kits and supercharger kits since 1978 and I know what kits really cost to build correctly. You cant compare a cheap kit--like the famous Gre**y kit with a cheap production TD04-15H for $1795 with NO: IC, BOV, FMU, gauges, exhaust, etc and call that a KIT. By the time the buyers purchased the IC kit, the BOV, extertnal wastegate kit, the IC pipe kit, etc they had $3500+ in it. And that was NOT the properly sized turbo--it was a production generic turbo.

bublik

iTrader: (2)

Ok, well you have a point about the pricing and sorry for the bashing of your product. It is just hard to accept it after the ebay electric superchargers that run off of a 12v blow dryer motor. In anycase, my main question, like any investor, is prove it. I want you to prove how your product works and works well without sacrificing drivability and especially the electronics of the car. Explain how the alternator will be able to produce such a current and keep teh car running, or does it need a another one? In general, explain your product and how well it can really work.

You have joined a forum where people are very "bandwagony" as so to speak but not a in a bad way. We rely on the info of others and their feedback to see how well products work. SF Turbo has become a well known name here for introducing the first turbo chargers and stuck with us through the thick and thin. The quality of the product was also good and kept us coming back. So if you want to introduce a new product, keep us as a family and show you have a good and genuine product.

Thanks,


Eddie


PS: Hopefully I am speaking for all of us the right way here at 7thgen

opto_isolator

iTrader: (8)

Wow, words from the manufacturer! That's awesome that he took the time to come to our forum to answer questions / dispell myths....props to you man!

Derek-CEO

iTrader: (27)

You need a 150A alternator minimum. 200A preffered.
You also need 2 optima batteries or 4 SVR (or similar) batteries.

atsturbo

I expect people to be sceptical, and with those ebay 'bilge fans' giving this technology a bad name I dont have any problem with people having the 'wait-and-see' attitude. I encourage it. You will dig deeper into all the facts that way.

My new 'flash' website is about done, and will be making it's debut in a day or two. It will have many other dyno runs and posts on it. You will be able to 'hear' and 'see' a dyno run, including several runs with the image covering the speedo, tach, boost gauge, a/f gauge, volt and ammeter, and view through the windshield as it accellerates down the road.

The ESC system is COMPLETELY seperate from the car's electronics. It has it's own batteries, cables, relays, etc, and will only use the car's alternator to charge the batteries while the car is driving, and NEVER while the ESC is operating. The ESC is a 24V system, while your car is 12V. We use relays to run two 12V batteries in series (24V) while running the ESC, and in parallel (12V) while charging.

A single-pole-double-throw switch (SPDT) will only allow running the ESC in one position and charging the batteries on the other. Simple and extremely safe. Golf Carts use this for forward and reverse. Not to be naive, but you KNOW someone will wire one up incorrectly and toast their harness. This happens ALL the time with high end stereos, yet people accept that as standard for the 'three-first-name' boys of you get my drift. Billy-Joe-Bob will toast his pickem'-up truck harness 'real bad like' and then tell his friends that new-fangled electric super-thingie burned up my beloved 'Bessie' truck!!

Like an air compressor air pressure regulator, the standard blow-off-valve (BOV) will regulate boost. Tighten the BOV and you raise boost, loosen it for lower boost.

This system uses 1200 amps, so the average 80-100 amp alternator will recharge the ESC batteries at a 15:1 ratio. That means several 15 second runs (30 seconds) will recharge in 30 X 15, or 450 seconds. That is 7.5 minutes of driving. If you upgraded the alternator to a 200 amp unit, the number could be 6:1. So two runs would recharge in three minutes. Ask the NOX users how they feel about that :-) 200 amp alternators are now $225 from many suppliers.

I asked Frank at SFP (the owner) if he wanted to represent my product in the SE USA & Carribean. He wanted to see one work before he said yes. After SFP did the dyno runs, Frank said he would love to distribute them. 'Nuff said!!!

bublik

iTrader: (2)

Then sir, I have but one question. Although I did not see the dyno charts or the power this thing makes... Why would I, as a consumer, buy this product over a turbo charged system that works in a simpler (at least to my understanding and mine) matter? I am more assured that your product is good, but why should I buy it instead of something else like a regular super charger ( I know there is not one for this car yet) or turbo system?

atsturbo

Thanks for the good questions. My site is down while we transfer to the new one which will be a much better site. The site has FAQ's and dyno graphs.

I have stated everywhere that if a car has a kit already available there is no reason to get my system. But if there are no kits available, this is a much better alternative to a custom kit ($4500-$5500) and could be installed by anyone with basic electrical and machanical understanding.

The high end audio guys have awesome looking distribution connectors that would be great in a show-car. The Golf Cart parts companies have every electrical parts needed in stock. EVParts.com is the largest online supplier.

If you have a car with nothing avaialble then my ESC is great. It can be used on the car and after a few years when you sell the car you transfer it to the next one if it has a 3.5 or smaller engine. No turbo or supercharger kit can do that. Also, if comparing to NOX the starting cost is more, but NOX is $1-$2.50 per run, and if you only ran a couple runs each day I would not bother with ANY performance option. I run 20-30 times a day AT LEAST in my ESC cars, so I would spend $20-$75 per day in NOX. But if you are someone like me who would use it at every chance the ESC would be MUCH cheaper than NOX. Anyone who has ever owned an NOX car will testify to that fact.

We are still in the infancy of this technology. Right now the Odyssey batteries are 13lb each, but the BatCap industry is making HUGE power from the battery-capacitor hybrids. They are
extremely lightweight--about 25% of the Odyssey (10% of a lead-acid battery). They are still costly, but so was the Odyssey when it first appeared a few years ago. Now the gel-cell type are $75 each. They were $175 each 2-3 years ago. I have two cars that will be serios cars in the near future. A '96 Neon ACR DOHC coupe and my Lotus Esprit with the Cosworth/Yamaha V8 I installed. The neon will make 450-475hp, and the Esprit 750-800hp. I will use the BatCap's on both of those.

I have several lightweight ESC units already produced. The standard ESC-400 is 42lb, while the lighweight ones are just over 25lb. Billett aluminum motor cases, gears, etc all save weight. Too expensive for production, but for those race teams the budget is higher than a typical car owner.

bublik

iTrader: (2)

Thank you for the response. What is the advantage over turbo? Reliablility? Energy use? gas mileage (year right0? etc.

BTW: All the heat from the SC and those three motors will create a super hot engine bay?!

atsturbo

Turbos create a LOT more heat just cruising than the ESC can ever create. The underhood temps have not shown one single degree of temp increase from the ESC because the heat transfer to the motors from the radiated air is more than the motors themselves make. With a maximum 15 second burst the heat generated is not the 200 degrees the engine runs at. More like 140 degrees after 30 seconds of running. A turbo has 600 degree exhaust heat radiating into the engine bay.

Now we KNOW that someone will add more and more batteries to make the ESC run longer so their Yugo can reach 100 mph. After 2 minutes of running 99.9mph in the Yugo (they actually never get to 100) they overheat the motors melting the armature and brushes inside the motors and boost goes to 0--obviously a poor design!!!

A turbo is in itself a great idea in theory. We take excess heat that escapes out of the engine to turn the turbine. But that is NOT the whole story. It take more than hot air to turn the turbine--it takes, heat, volume, and pressure to turn a turbine and then COMPRESS air in the compressor side. You could have a 1000CID motor spinning a tiny turbo but if no PRESSuRE is made in the exhaust manifold you will have no boost--zero-zilch. It takes power to make power.

So ALL turbos--even the most efficient ball bearing turbo on the Indy cars--have a LOT of pressure in the exhaust manifold. An Indy car running 40 psi on alcohol will have 25-30 psi in the exhaust manifolds/header. That is less than a 1:1 RATIO, while street turbos have a ratio between 1.7 and 3:1. The famous 300ZXTT had a 2.7:1 ratio. At 10 psi boost there was 27 psi in the exhaust manifolds. The exhaust gas temps (EGT) were extremely high and toasted a ton of those motors when boost was raised with a boost controller.

Fuel economy would be better with the ESC that a crank driven SC or a turbo because it is fully independant from the engine. The expected life of the ESC--based on 15 runs of 15 seconds every day is 40 years. The Odyssey batteries have a 10 year expectancy for them.

bublik

iTrader: (2)

I am now confused in a way. The ESC cant run consistantly like a turbo or supercharger? It needs to be recharged every 15 seconds?

Derek-CEO

iTrader: (27)

yes, you can compare more to NOX than a turbo.

atsturbo

The amount of current needed to turn this ESC would require a set of 20-30 full size batteries to run it for a long time. Hardly worth it for the weight. It will make several 15 second bursts with the lightweight racing batteries and then be recharged in a short drive. This system would NOT be appropriate for road racing , F1, Indy, etc. It is, however, perfect for spirited straight line driving which covers 90% of all races anyway. Even my bone stock 3600lb Altima 4-cyl automatic will reach triple digits in less than 15 sec at 6 psi.

bublik

iTrader: (2)

I see. So your product is not constant like a turbo, but is not as iregular as NOX. It is like having NOX, but without half the danger ( I hope) and no need to refil any liquid. So it is a part time super charging system designed to tackle the needs of those who prefer racing in a straight line for 15 sec or less. It caters to a market of people that are constantly at the drag race? Bc if you plan to sell it to the daily driver, to be honest, he can get NOX for 600 + 100 for a bottle warmer and refil it and spend less cash. Maybe not in the long run, but the cost issue is now a problem here. You have a great product with a great idea. It can be useful, but to whom? IMO, I think you are catering to the wrong market. If you are sure you are not, then good luck to you Mr. Thomas Knight.

PS: Being a former NOX user, I do really appreciate your product and see its advantages. But since it runs in comparison with NOX, you have to adjust your prices to do so.

atsturbo

You have several good points. The import racer is 99% a straight line runner (F&F, 2F&2F), and that is my target as well as underpowered import & domestic trucks like the Ranger and F150-V6. (I have an ESC-550 available in 45 days for larger engines up to 4.5L).
For over two decades I switched NOS users to turbos as the formula for comparing a turbo to NOS was simple. 100 shot is $2.50/run, you get 7-8 runs per 10lb bottle, and the racers I know who street race (I dont condone that) use 2-3 bottles a week--sometimes a LOT more if there is a race at the track that weekend. That is $75-$125 a WEEK.

I have seen posts where someone claims they get 25 runs and a bottle lasts 2-3 months, but I would use more than that if I had NOX on my riding LAWNMOWER. What they are saying is they show someone they have NOX but never USE it!!!

MatrixShark

Good info. It's nice to see someone represent thier product like you have done.

Now I have a suggestion for you.

Take some applications for someone who would like to be sponsored with your product. Maybe someone in your area. Get the unit installed, dynoed, with and without the boost on. Then have the info posted here. If the unit shows good results you could then start a group buy thread.

This is a tough, yet great crowd here... all they need is a little proof.

MatrixShark

...oh and have the "test" car run the 1/4 mile with and without the boost on.

atsturbo

There are two vehicles scheduled for testing this thurs on the dyno. The runs are ALWAYS done--two with the unit off and four with the unit on. On a different note, a 3.8 Mustang group was debating this product, and one 3.8 owner was from 30 miles north of here. He was challenged by the others to 'go see and take a ride'. He arrived with no faith at all in this product and sceptical as anyone I have ever seen. When he had seen the ad in the mag he thought the ESC was a 6-8" (palm size) unit, with three RC car motors. So I invited him to accompany me on a test drive of my '98 Nissan Altima with a bone stock engine (even the stock exhaust is still on it) auto trans, and a hefty weight of 3800lb from the audio system, body kit, wheels, ESC, etc. We drove around for a while and I gave him several runs with WOT from a standstill and at speeds approaching tripple digits with the ESC switch off. This 2-ton pigslug couldn't outrun a Yugo or a Diesel Jetta. Then we stopped the car, and I told him to hang on--I informed him we were going to run 5 psi as the BOV had been set to that for tuning. The car smoked the tires all the way through 1st gear, and pulled like a BIG V6 to tripple digits in 15 seconds. He left a firm believer. He jnow KNOWS electric supercharging has indeed arrived!!!

http://www.3.8mustang.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57705

miami6stang
more speed

Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 205

Location: mia
Year: 2003
Trans: stick
well i just got back from looking at it and i have to say that i thought i was going to see some getto setup on the cars or what not, but everything was well done. props to his work. then we started talking about how everything worked and he took me for a ride in one of his test cars. went out punched it didnt move. then we came to a dead stop and he hit the little switch and the tires let go. for a 2ton stock everythin i was impressed. went back to his shop and thats where i was most impressed. after talking for a while. this does work for smaller cars, so we will have to wait and see what happens with the 3.8. much respect to him along with all of his hard work.

kjgracing

iTrader: (3)

so does the ESC work by flipping a switch and it is on or does it use a WOT switch to give
bursts of power?

2003 Valvoline Cup Series Import 3rd place overall

atsturbo

We burned up two Optima batteries in the test Ranger--not going to recommend them--had one go bad a month ago, and thought it was a fluke--not the case. OK for stereo, but the Hawker/Odyssey is best for the ESC.

Had a guy from the 3.8 Mustang club drive down here to our facility last weekend on a dare from other members. He was so sure we were bilge-fan superchargers. Just about blew a gasket when he saw that the ESC is 16" long, 8" wide and 8" high. He thought it was palm size with three little RC car motors :-)

Strapped him in the Altima road-slug. That is our 3800lb bone stock 2.4 4-cyl auto trans, high end stereo, molded body kit, 19" wheels, show car. Floored it while he held the switch and said dont hit it yet. Car is an absolute PIG!!! Runs 18's on a good day. Came to a stop and told him to hit the switch when I say 'Go'. We did, and smoked the tires all the way through 1st. Runs high 14's to low 15's at 5 psi. He was totally shocked. We test the road slug at SFP tomorrow (thurs). Anyone want to come watch, see, ask questions? Please do--305-233-8520 is SFP # (Miami Fla) The Altima in the morning, and the Ranger 4-cyl in the afternoon.

here is this post after coming here:
http://www.3.8mustang.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57705