Honda Civic Racing, Street Encounters and Competition RacingHonda Civic Racing happens on the street and on the track. There are different setups needed if you are using your Honda Civic for drifting, drag racing, or track racing. Share your stories of Honda Civic racing here.
Welcome to civicforums.com!
Welcome to civicforums.com.
You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, at no cost, you will have access to start new topics, reply to conversations, privately message other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join civicforums.com today!
The bottom line with tires is make sure you have enough traction to handle your power, without over doing it. I have watched tons of high 15/low 16 second cars use slicks, and it ends up making them slower. My old 2 liter Jetta embarassed a 04 Civic SI with I/E that was running slicks. He was running low 16's with his slicks, while my underpowered Jetta ran high 15's on V-rated tires. If he put my wheels/tires on his car, he would have been in the 15's easily.
To remove this ad, register today for free or log in if already registered!
__________________ -Jeff, MECP certified installer
2004 Civic VP coupe auto - custom CAI, OBX Type R exhaust (rear section)
Best 1/4 Mile: 17.098 @ 79.16 mph
Sponsored Links
To avoid seeing this ad in our forum please register at CivicForums.com
By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features.
But I never said ABS stops faster than non-ABS.(Saying yes to that is really stupid. Anyway, I didn't say that, my friend did.) ABS is kind of making the tires keep rotating (to maintain handling capability) instead of doing pure translation.
Anyway, let me think about the tires. So tires should have enough traction to handling the power, right? Then it's completely a torque issue not HP issue. But FWD cars tends to transfer COG all the way to the back, so the reaction on the front tire is greatly reduced. How do you determine how many traction you need and what tire can handle that? Or just follow the trend, buying whatever people are buying(I think this is a stupid idea though)?
__________________ Dynaudio 3-way is the worst system for tuning, but it's the best sound I've ever heard of....Finally, done tuning for staging....
The bottom line with tires is make sure you have enough traction to handle your power, without over doing it. I have watched tons of high 15/low 16 second cars use slicks, and it ends up making them slower. My old 2 liter Jetta embarassed a 04 Civic SI with I/E that was running slicks. He was running low 16's with his slicks, while my underpowered Jetta ran high 15's on V-rated tires. If he put my wheels/tires on his car, he would have been in the 15's easily.
Wow I though 2 Litres Jettas were real slow. I guess I was wrong.
But I never said ABS stops faster than non-ABS.(Saying yes to that is really stupid. Anyway, I didn't say that, my friend did.) ABS is kind of making the tires keep rotating (to maintain handling capability) instead of doing pure translation.
Anyway, let me think about the tires. So tires should have enough traction to handling the power, right? Then it's completely a torque issue not HP issue. But FWD cars tends to transfer COG all the way to the back, so the reaction on the front tire is greatly reduced. How do you determine how many traction you need and what tire can handle that? Or just follow the trend, buying whatever people are buying(I think this is a stupid idea though)?
Yeah, the ABS thing wasn't you, it's just what my physics class claculated, but it came with the for warning that we where not taking into account how a real ABS system works. My point is that what you learn in the class room is always over simplified to teach you the concept. If you start doing research in that area, you will find that what you learn in the class room is just a small portion of a big picture, that's all.
Anyway, to know how much traction you really need, the fastest way is just trial and error and by talking to others that know what they are doing. Talk to the quickest people with similiar car to yours. The reason I say a similar car to your is becasue how much traction you need is determined by many factors, the two biggest being power (yes mainly torque) and your suspension set up. If you have a drag set up, where you basically use rocks in the rear and the front is lowwered, then you cut down on the wieght tranfer from the front to the back, more wieght on the front, you can use more traction. If you are riding on stock mush suspension, you will have lots wieght transfer and hence don't need as much traction. Agian the torque you produce willalso play a big factor. So I could imagine direct correlation that relates how much weight is on the front end during take off to the amount of traction needed. But to devolpe this equation, one would need some major track time and teh ability to measure weight transfer on a car, or better yet the weight on the front tires during a luanch. Seems like a good project, but it would need lots of time and money at the track to do, I just go with first hand experience and what other with the same car and suspension are doing, I look for the fastest guy around with the same car and see what suspension he is running and what tires he has. If you came up with that equation, though, I would be very very impressed. You should publish a paper on that or something.
Wow I though 2 Litres Jettas were real slow. I guess I was wrong.
If you're talking about MKIV (99-2004) Jettas, you're absolutley right. 112 HP is not enough to pull 2,900lbs, no matter what.
He might have had an old G20 motor in a MKII or III. They were light enough to deal with little power.
__________________ 2006 Scion tC
With header and hacked airbox- 15.36@89.15
new setup, in progress- injen/CCspipe/magnaflow/NST pulley/hotchkis springs, sways/ingalls/race rubber... An STS car that runs 14's in the 1/4, while staying emissions legal and dead quiet.
Yeah, the ABS thing wasn't you, it's just what my physics class claculated, but it came with the for warning that we where not taking into account how a real ABS system works. My point is that what you learn in the class room is always over simplified to teach you the concept. If you start doing research in that area, you will find that what you learn in the class room is just a small portion of a big picture, that's all.
Anyway, to know how much traction you really need, the fastest way is just trial and error and by talking to others that know what they are doing. Talk to the quickest people with similiar car to yours. The reason I say a similar car to your is becasue how much traction you need is determined by many factors, the two biggest being power (yes mainly torque) and your suspension set up. If you have a drag set up, where you basically use rocks in the rear and the front is lowwered, then you cut down on the wieght tranfer from the front to the back, more wieght on the front, you can use more traction. If you are riding on stock mush suspension, you will have lots wieght transfer and hence don't need as much traction. Agian the torque you produce willalso play a big factor. So I could imagine direct correlation that relates how much weight is on the front end during take off to the amount of traction needed. But to devolpe this equation, one would need some major track time and teh ability to measure weight transfer on a car, or better yet the weight on the front tires during a luanch. Seems like a good project, but it would need lots of time and money at the track to do, I just go with first hand experience and what other with the same car and suspension are doing, I look for the fastest guy around with the same car and see what suspension he is running and what tires he has. If you came up with that equation, though, I would be very very impressed. You should publish a paper on that or something.
I got what you mean. But I don't know how suspension is calculated. Mass-spring-damper system is my weakest point of study. Currently I have RSX-S (stock) suspension in my car, I feel it's a little overdamped, but the spring force is greater (so I got a single bounce by the spring, then the damper absorbs everything and sit firmly back to the ground). My car is kind of tail heavy due to the stereo system sitting at the edge behind the rear support, and due to the fact that RSX-S front spring are longer than Civic's. I don't want too much suface contact because it will affect lateral stability. What do you think is good? 195/60/15 should be better choice, right? I now have 205/60/15 and it makes turns a little unstable. What brand also do you recommend?
__________________ Dynaudio 3-way is the worst system for tuning, but it's the best sound I've ever heard of....Finally, done tuning for staging....
I got what you mean. But I don't know how suspension is calculated. Mass-spring-damper system is my weakest point of study. Currently I have RSX-S (stock) suspension in my car, I feel it's a little overdamped, but the spring force is greater (so I got a single bounce by the spring, then the damper absorbs everything and sit firmly back to the ground). My car is kind of tail heavy due to the stereo system sitting at the edge behind the rear support, and due to the fact that RSX-S front spring are longer than Civic's. I don't want too much suface contact because it will affect lateral stability. What do you think is good? 195/60/15 should be better choice, right? I now have 205/60/15 and it makes turns a little unstable. What brand also do you recommend?
I said overdamped? Sorry, my bad. I meant underdamped. Spring tends to oscillate only. But the strut is oil damper. If it's underdamped, then there's a boost at the resonance frequency, which, for the car, is basically every bumps on the road (spring dominated). The smaller the damping factor is, the more boost it will be. So what I mean a "bounce" means it has a higher boost than the stock Civic strut. If overdamped (or at least critically damped), the car will run like Legend or whatever, the wheel bonces but the car is stable at a level (damper dominated).
__________________ Dynaudio 3-way is the worst system for tuning, but it's the best sound I've ever heard of....Finally, done tuning for staging....
I said overdamped? Sorry, my bad. I meant underdamped. Spring tends to oscillate only. But the strut is oil damper. If it's underdamped, then there's a boost at the resonance frequency, which, for the car, is basically every bumps on the road (spring dominated). The smaller the damping factor is, the more boost it will be. So what I mean a "bounce" means it has a higher boost than the stock Civic strut. If overdamped (or at least critically damped), the car will run like Legend or whatever, the wheel bonces but the car is stable at a level (damper dominated).
NO! an overdampered car will tend to skip through the corners... Much like an over sprung car would. not good for handling. "A tire in the air can make no traction..." Remember, the whole point of your suspension is to keep your tires contact patches as loaded as possible. and if you over dampen the springs they (the springs) wont be able to react to road surface changes as quickly as they need to, increasing the likelyhood of one or more tire coming off the ground when encountering a bump.
Autocross: Because Life is more fun on three wheels......
"I know Solo only comes one minute at a time, but what an intense, non-stop, fast-forward car control exercise minute it is. Sure, the velocity is higher in road racing, but inside the car it is slow-motion in comparison. In Solo, the turns come like machine-gun rounds. "
Randy Pobst
I got what you mean. But I don't know how suspension is calculated. Mass-spring-damper system is my weakest point of study. Currently I have RSX-S (stock) suspension in my car, I feel it's a little overdamped, but the spring force is greater (so I got a single bounce by the spring, then the damper absorbs everything and sit firmly back to the ground). My car is kind of tail heavy due to the stereo system sitting at the edge behind the rear support, and due to the fact that RSX-S front spring are longer than Civic's. I don't want too much suface contact because it will affect lateral stability. What do you think is good? 195/60/15 should be better choice, right? I now have 205/60/15 and it makes turns a little unstable. What brand also do you recommend?
yeah spring damping is not my best suit either, infact being that my field is Chemical Engineering, most of this is what I have found from people in tuning cars. Not like Steve the backyard mechanic, I talked to Spoon and Mugen engineers, but the most helpfull in helping me was Progress, those guys know their stuff and will explain in great detial why they give certian spring rate to certian cars and what type of struts to use for what applications and why. Since I come from an engineering backround they actually explained most of teh equation they use to model the car and all that stuff. It was really neat.
Hummm... I think 205/55/15 is stock right? I finally have came to the conclusion (after many trial and errors of my own) that Honda has far more money and reasource than you or I will ever have to spend on this topic. SO I now days go with the stock size tire with a good tire. I like Falkens myself, but there are many good name out there depending on how long you want the tire to last. I have however figured that Honda puts a tire, from the factory, that has been deisnged for quite and comfort and long life, that's what the majority of Honda buyer want. Since you have an RSX-S though, that may not be true. I have never owned a RSX, so I have no real ability to say what I think the perfect tire is for that. On my civic I had the factory tires, snow tires and Hancock (sp?), I never had them and figured I'll try them, not tomention they where dirt cheap. For the price I piad they where okay, not to much grip, just about right, but wore a little to fast for me.
I've tried wider and more narrow tires on a cars for handling and found that wider is generally better because the more traction you have going around a turn will help. Of course proper daming and spring rates I have found to help far more than the tire width, agian look at the S2000 (great handling car, little tires). I normally only go 10mm over the stock is optimal, but that;s just a general rule of thumb, however at 10mm over I have found (in civics) my MPG goes down about 2-3 due to the added rolling friction and wieght in normal driving. Anyway, getting back on topic, more traction = more friction as you siad earlier, but that friction is what is keeping you from sliding all over.
You say you're tail end is heavy due to added weight. I guess you mean understeer right? Honda's are generally prone to understeer no matter what (thanks to laywers of the world). It is consdered to be better to have understeering than neutral or over steering because it is better to turn into the ditch than the person wiating to turn off the road you are going on to. Anyway, the best way to elimante understeer, IMO is a stiffer rear sway bar. You could also do this buy putting smaller tires on the front than the rear (width wise, not diameter), but I have not done this and don't really reccomend this idea. You could get a smaller front sway bar, but that will lossen your front up and probably is not desired unless you are dragging the car. The other idea, if you don't want to play with the suspension, move the speaker forward if possible, maybe put them on the floor in the back seat, assuming you never let any one ride in the back. Of course, the best way is to replace the suspension and get a slightly stiffer spring set in the rear, or change the damping of the rear. But new shock are 400+ with out instalation where as a Neuspeed rear sway bar is only about 200 new, you might even pick one up used for less on clubRSX.com, then sell your stock one on here for about 50-60, making your total loss probably under 100 bucks.
NO! an overdampered car will tend to skip through the corners... Much like an over sprung car would. not good for handling. "A tire in the air can make no traction..." Remember, the whole point of your suspension is to keep your tires contact patches as loaded as possible. and if you over dampen the springs they (the springs) wont be able to react to road surface changes as quickly as they need to, increasing the likelyhood of one or more tire coming off the ground when encountering a bump.
How can I be certain that Tokico HPs with Neuspeed sports will be better than my underdampened stock set-up right now?
NO! an overdampered car will tend to skip through the corners... Much like an over sprung car would. not good for handling. "A tire in the air can make no traction..." Remember, the whole point of your suspension is to keep your tires contact patches as loaded as possible. and if you over dampen the springs they (the springs) wont be able to react to road surface changes as quickly as they need to, increasing the likelyhood of one or more tire coming off the ground when encountering a bump.
yeah spring damping is not my best suit either, infact being that my field is Chemical Engineering, most of this is what I have found from people in tuning cars. Not like Steve the backyard mechanic, I talked to Spoon and Mugen engineers, but the most helpfull in helping me was Progress, those guys know their stuff and will explain in great detial why they give certian spring rate to certian cars and what type of struts to use for what applications and why. Since I come from an engineering backround they actually explained most of teh equation they use to model the car and all that stuff. It was really neat.
Hummm... I think 205/55/15 is stock right? I finally have came to the conclusion (after many trial and errors of my own) that Honda has far more money and reasource than you or I will ever have to spend on this topic. SO I now days go with the stock size tire with a good tire. I like Falkens myself, but there are many good name out there depending on how long you want the tire to last. I have however figured that Honda puts a tire, from the factory, that has been deisnged for quite and comfort and long life, that's what the majority of Honda buyer want. Since you have an RSX-S though, that may not be true. I have never owned a RSX, so I have no real ability to say what I think the perfect tire is for that. On my civic I had the factory tires, snow tires and Hancock (sp?), I never had them and figured I'll try them, not tomention they where dirt cheap. For the price I piad they where okay, not to much grip, just about right, but wore a little to fast for me.
I've tried wider and more narrow tires on a cars for handling and found that wider is generally better because the more traction you have going around a turn will help. Of course proper daming and spring rates I have found to help far more than the tire width, agian look at the S2000 (great handling car, little tires). I normally only go 10mm over the stock is optimal, but that;s just a general rule of thumb, however at 10mm over I have found (in civics) my MPG goes down about 2-3 due to the added rolling friction and wieght in normal driving. Anyway, getting back on topic, more traction = more friction as you siad earlier, but that friction is what is keeping you from sliding all over.
You say you're tail end is heavy due to added weight. I guess you mean understeer right? Honda's are generally prone to understeer no matter what (thanks to laywers of the world). It is consdered to be better to have understeering than neutral or over steering because it is better to turn into the ditch than the person wiating to turn off the road you are going on to. Anyway, the best way to elimante understeer, IMO is a stiffer rear sway bar. You could also do this buy putting smaller tires on the front than the rear (width wise, not diameter), but I have not done this and don't really reccomend this idea. You could get a smaller front sway bar, but that will lossen your front up and probably is not desired unless you are dragging the car. The other idea, if you don't want to play with the suspension, move the speaker forward if possible, maybe put them on the floor in the back seat, assuming you never let any one ride in the back. Of course, the best way is to replace the suspension and get a slightly stiffer spring set in the rear, or change the damping of the rear. But new shock are 400+ with out instalation where as a Neuspeed rear sway bar is only about 200 new, you might even pick one up used for less on clubRSX.com, then sell your stock one on here for about 50-60, making your total loss probably under 100 bucks.
I don't own a RSX-S, just a Civic with RSX-S suspension. That's about it.
185/65/15 was my factory size. Anything between 185 and 205 with 60 for 195 and 205 will be fine, but just wondering what brand of tire is good to use.
Also, my sway bar setup is 15mm front 03 EX bar and 19mm rear RSX sway bar.
Wonder what will happen if I use RSX damper with Civic spring.
__________________ Dynaudio 3-way is the worst system for tuning, but it's the best sound I've ever heard of....Finally, done tuning for staging....
