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Here is a PM I sent to boonecivic, I decided to make this into a thread because we started getting it popping and thoguht I'd share it with everyone:
My message:
I saw your mod list. Its fairly close to what I was thinking of doing. Why did you decide to pnp the head, and what gains did you see. Also running catless with the race header, is it ridiculously loud?
Boonecivic's Reply:
Well, i blew a few motors in the past and was on e bay looking for motors ( which was a bad bad idea) and came across a motor that had pnp head. So i went ahead and got it. I want to say that i got 20-30 hp around the powerband. But it has to be tuned good. And i really really advise that you invest in the kpro before you get the cams. The vafc does nothing to tune it. I can barley keep it idling. And being catless, it is very loud. And also due to the fact that i have the skunk 2 exhaust. It seems to make it that much louder. But it has a nice deep sound to it. I see your name all over the forums talking about N/A motors lol but if you have any other questions, i might be able to help.
My reply:
Haha, ALL around the forum? Yeah I guess.. I'm around the house like sidewalks. Ha.
I was into going NA hardcore for a long time there but ran outta money and hadnt jumped back on it. I'm graduating college at the end of the term in mid december and I dont have a job lined up. I'm majoring in accounting and am looking to become a CPA so I'll be making bank, just now cash is a little strapped working seasonaly and holding down car insuance and shit.
Anyways, I got an lx, but was/am going to do the head swap to ex... but I thoguht, hell, why not build it first. Well I got a crower stage 2 cam, valve springs and retainers, as well as new valve guides. I need to pick up some new valves as well- kuz I didnt remember where I pulled them from, and I guess that causes problems later down the line if you dont put them back out of where you pulled them from because of how they wear the valve guides. I'll Probably go with larger valves, or at at least that was the thinking. I also have a vafc to help with the headswap, but wasnt really planning on tuning with it. Of course Kpro is the way to go- I've been staring at it ever since it came out and blew AEM's EMS out the water.
But other then that I was looking at getting the revs up faster- so a lightened flywheel (dont need a clutch yet, but prob should replace it while have the tranny cracked open.. not sure which one to get, if any tho- I've read the break down on all of them and what they are good for just havent given it any serious thought as to yet), and a the race header which gives the most gains out of any headers on the market for our car, which is also another good choice. So whats left...
high compression pistons (slightly larger??), valves, crower maxi-lite rods, pnp/angle job, lightening the crank- shaving the balncers down to points and micropolishing, and then lighter wheels.
Thats my ideas for an NA build. Your pretty well on your way. I'd like to see you tune with Kpro (did you pick it up yet and just not update your profile?), and then get the maxilight rods by crower and high compression pistons and then see how much your throwing down. My orig goal was 160 bhp, hopefully with torque somewhere near there (the lightened flywheel, lightened crank, and lighter wheels should all help that significantly).
Everyones going turbo n shit, so threre isnt a lot of research done on NA builds- so naturally when I see someone with an NA build my eyes light up.
Wow, sounds like you have it pretty much figured out bro. When you get all your motor work done, i am positive you will hit that 160 make. And i think you will pass it. I do not have the kpro yet. The damn thing cost way to much. like you i ran out of money with going to school. I'm going to school to be a radiology Technologist then ultrasound tech. Am very far from being done in december unlike you. I envy that your almost done lol but with school and other bills, i have been on a hold with my car.
So ya, i dont think i have anything else to add to your list of N/a. You are basicly doing everything i want to do. And as soon as i get the kpro, i will most defiantly show you my tune. Man i should start saving for that now. You made me want to get that going lol
So have you put the cams in yet? or are you waiting till you have everything and just put it all in at once?
I encourage you, you should get it going again man!!
I havent put the cam in yet. I started before I came to school by taking the head apart. I never finished putting it back together because I found out I needed to put the valves back in the same place they came from- which is why I picked up the new valve guides. I had to come back to college and my dad boxed all my shit back up and stacked it on the side of the garage- so I need to hop on that. I figured I'd get the head work done before I put the cam and valves back in. Just wasnt sure what exactly to get done to the head- I hop on http://d-series.org/ and start some hardcore research.
In ref to the wear on the guides, I wouldn't worry about that at all. Just re-seat the valves with a hand lapper and compound and toss them back in. Job done.
I'm glad your picking this up. Has anybody actually changed d17 pistons out to up the compression ration before? I don't recall it being done so I'm eagerly waiting the results.
In ref to the wear on the guides, I wouldn't worry about that at all. Just re-seat the valves with a hand lapper and compound and toss them back in. Job done.
Haha, its all good man. BTW, I've been following your build thread lately- its coming along really nicely and I'm impressed with all the work you've been doing on your own- especially yaking that rad support all on your own. You aughta complain at the UPS guy, that was BS. About the guides- shoot, I already got the guides, and will most likely be changing up the valves to some oversized ones- still need to research about air velocity and the science behind what will yield the most power in the cylinder.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordhelmet
I'm glad your picking this up. Has anybody actually changed d17 pistons out to up the compression ration before? I don't recall it being done so I'm eagerly waiting the results.
I've see ppl change pistons to lower the compression, but I still have yet to come across a build where someone changes the pistons and rods (to most likely crower maxi light rods). If anyone knows anyone who has done this, please post about it here!
Quote:
Originally Posted by sicma99ot
about damn time you got back on it. lol. i was thinking id be done with my n/a build before you were. lmao
i dont know if you've considered it or not, but there was an ancient thread floating around here somewhere about doing an individual throttle body setup on a d17 and N/A build stuff. it would be sick if you could pioneer the way for that. does anyone even make high comp. pistons yet? i thought those were still non-existent. oh and why not go ahead and step up to the stage 3 cam.
The stage 3 cam is for the real aggresive racers. It's not very street friendly, unless thats what you are going for Triz. If your wanting 160bhp like you said earlier, i wouldnt worry about the stage 3, i think the stage 2 will be plenty will a good tune .
The stage 3 cam is for the real aggresive racers. It's not very street friendly, unless thats what you are going for Triz. If your wanting 160bhp like you said earlier, i wouldnt worry about the stage 3, i think the stage 2 will be plenty will a good tune .
Uhhh NO the I have the stage 3 cam in my car I used to have the stage 2 the stage 2 was way more aggressive and rough. My stage 3 the car idles like butter and runs like stock. Everyone thinks that the stage 3 since it is a higher stage means it is going to be very un-streetable and hard to handle but it actually runs a lot smoother and has a bigger powerband than the stage 2, Jeff(jeff evans tuning), Andy and I all believe it is due to the lobe separation.
Also the stage 2 makes power to 8000 rpm but as soon as you hit 8100 it hits the wall and completely drops off feels like the motor is just free wheeling. the stage 3 keeps pulling though at 8100 rpm.
On the subject of High compression pistons I have manage to dig up a little more research. wiseco will make piston for our motor any compression from something like 8.1 to 14.1 so if you wanted to go all out you could go 14.1 but you would have to run race fuel. No one has really wanted to leak out the wait of the maxi light rods to me but from everything I have found they seem to be 25 grams heavier than the stock rods. Talked to jeff evans about high compression he seems to think that it is possible to run 12.5 compression which would be the gx piston on 93 octane but you are going to have to dump more fuel and you can't get too crazy with the ignition timing unless your running race gas. Also the GX rods are not the same as the stock rods they have a different part # I think there shot peened but there is no proof what so ever to back that one up.
^^ True @ pistons. Shit @ rods. I think I might have heard that before as well, I'll have to research what the deal is. There is a guy over on d-series.org, bigtuna, that has a CRX D16 that is running custom bisimoto pistons with a compression of 14.7:1!! But he is using E85 Ethanol for fuel, which isnt pump gas With more time on that site I'm sure i'll find a good combo of rods and pistons to throw some power out with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordhelmet
Kind of off topic but did you ever change your suede headliner?
I had the red suede up there for a while, but with the heat it started sagging so I ripped it off one hot summer day- basically shaved the headliner and put it back up till I can come back at it. I was going to do it carbon fiber actually, but I'm a little worried about how its going to reflect sound. Havent given it much thought beyond that though. I actually have this guy over at an upholstry shop who has 30 yrs experience doing automotive interiors offering to spray the glue for my headliner for me. Basically I just need to bring my headliner in now that its all cleaned up and the material and it'll be done. I might take him up on it. I dunno.
Quote:
Originally Posted by baron340
i dont know if you've considered it or not, but there was an ancient thread floating around here somewhere about doing an individual throttle body setup on a d17 and N/A build stuff. it would be sick if you could pioneer the way for that. does anyone even make high comp. pistons yet? i thought those were still non-existent. oh and why not go ahead and step up to the stage 3 cam.
Yeah they are out there. Its not really made and marketed for D17's but if the dimentions are correct they will work. As for ITB's... I was looking into it before, that would def be sick. There is a lot of science behind tuning them properly and building them with the correct runner length and horn size. I question if running itb's on a streetable car is even a good idea, even if filters were slapped on the end of each of them.
Might be cheaper to just get the stock rods shot peened then. Same light weight, stronger because of the shot peening process. That leaves wrist pin size on whatever pistons you run to account for, but it's an option.
Get on Google Triz. There are probably a bunch of gas stations near you that sell E85, plus it's cheaper than 93 octane.
I didn't know that NA builds produce so much power. What kinda cost are you looking at to get everything you want TRIZ? This sounds much better than going turbo to me.
With more time on that site I'm sure i'll find a good combo of rods and pistons to throw some power out with. 
