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Originally posted by VNlilMAN I wonder if changing the caster helps out with the toe issue? example if positive camber gives you toe-in would positive caster give you toe-out, thus helping that out a bit?
You're moving the top of the strut inwards. The steering arm length won't change, so it turns the strut. Since the steering arm is 1/2 way up the strut, its farther from the point of rotation (the lower mount) than most normal struts. It magnifies the effect. Pushing the camber more positive would give you toe out. Its counterproductive for what you want. You want neg. camber and a little toe out for handling. All the plate does is allow you to set a camber angle outside of that the suspension would normally allow with no adjustment.
Quote:
^^^ Just remember Robbclark and Boilermaker, if you want to remain in STS The center clearance hole may not be modified.
Rule 17.8 Section C.
other wise, How many people here acutally race their car or even care how much camber/caster/toe they have. most will just have the car aligned with in factory specs and call it a day. The rest of us will just deal with the little problems because we want that last tenth on the track.
I know the rules. You can get almost full travel out of the plates in the stock hole (something like -3 deg).
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yeah but what i'm saying is...
Negative camber = toe-in
but would Positive CASTER = toe-out?
cause if its true, it would kinda help out with the whole toe issue since toe-in + toe-out = less change of toe
oh and just incase you missed, the reason I bring this up is because the D2 camber plates adjusts both CAMBER and CASTER since its not straight but diagonal
(ignore the red/blue line)
Originally posted by VNlilMAN yeah but what i'm saying is...
Negative camber = toe-in
but would Positive CASTER = toe-out?
cause if its true, it would kinda help out with the whole toe issue since toe-in + toe-out = less change of toe
oh and just incase you missed, the reason I bring this up is because the D2 camber plates adjusts both CAMBER and CASTER since its not straight but diagonal
(ignore the red/blue line)
I can re-index my JIC plates and do that too. Its not something super special. Any camber plate will do that. lease: You're being fed bullshit, all you have to do is rotate the plate. No one designed it like that, it wasn't engineered to do that, its the simple principle of a bolt circle. You can position the slot any way you want as long as the 3 bolts fit in the uniformly spaced holes. Whoever is marketing these things needs to be slapped around by a couple engineers. A true camber/caster plate has a square in it so you can adjust one independently of the other... Subarus are fully camber and caster adjustable.
Laying the strut back with more caster will make it worse since you're shrinking the angle in the plane horizontal to the ground between the firewall (where the steering box is) and the arm on the strut because you're moving it closer. That lengthens the tie rod even more, and pushes the toe in more. This is simple geometry.... the tie rod (the hypotenuse) cannot change length without adjustment. The other 2 sides, a and b therefore must change. a gets shorter, and since a^2+b^2=c^2. b MUST get longer. In other words, the distance between the the steering box and the strut steering arm INCREASES... thats TOE IN
Refer to the drawing I did. The angles are overexagerated, so you can see what I mean.
have you read the suspension FAQ? If not, please do. It is there to educated people. All cars come with stock camber adjusters but they only adjust within OEM specs. a camber kit is used to adjust the camber outside of OEM specs (ie when lowering, racing, etc)
__________________ Life isnt a test drive, gotta live a little. (02fpcivic)
Boilermaker1, try rotating the plate, see if it fits.. it only fits one way... you'd have to drill into the plates and reposition the bolts in order to position the camer plate that way
(pardon my drawing, have very limited programs at work)
-OK so the yellow[box] parts shows negative CAMBER correctly but what about the green[box] that shows CASTER. It doesnt show it clearly...
-I drew out what effect CASTER might have on the toe.
:::red: tie rod
:::Blue: steering arm on strut
::urple: actual strut
-The left side is what an aligned toe looks like correct?
-The ride side however shows what might possibly happen when you change caster. Since the tie rod stays the same length it'll "shorten" the distance from the strut pulling the steering arm in, thus causing TOE-OUT
-Since Negative Camber causes TOE-IN wouldnt the TOE-OUT kinda cancel it out a bit?
The tie rod can't go past parallel to the firewall like that. You'd hit the firewall.
You need to rethink this through. Go back to what I said about the length of the tie rod not changing, the angle of the tie rod with respect to the firewall and what happens if you move the tie rod closer to the firewall. You will not be pulling the steering arm back in like you need to, the tie rod will just keep pushing it out.
Wait a sec. If you push the caster FOWARDS, you will be pulling on the tie rod end and angle the steering arm. Not that there is much room to go foward with it, but if you changed the caster fowards you will be forcing the tie rod to pull harder and the steering arm, making the TOE OUT. If you pushed the caster BACKWARDS, then the TOE will come IN. Refer to picture below. I think this is what vnlilman is getting to but it still woudn't be a 90 degree angle.
The circle is the shock and the the line coming off of it is the arm attached to the shock and the line off that is the arm attached to the steering.
__________________ Life isnt a test drive, gotta live a little. (02fpcivic)
i know by looking at the pictures it would probably hit the firewall but they were just exagerations. hm.. i finally understand what you meant by the firewall but hmm now i wonder where EXACTLY the steering box is. I think it is fairly close to the firewall but maybe its sticking out enough to make a difference? i shall check when i get home
there is no steering box per say its a rack and pinon the rack is located inline with the tie rods honda designed the tie rods to move up and down they have to because of the way there mounted to the strut but they cant move on any other plane(front to back ). Boiler maker is sayin that if you draw a line through the center of the rack you will find that the tie rods move linear to this. Once you start to mess with caster and camber you now creat a pivot on the end of the tie rod because you cant move the tie rod its a fixed length(unless you adjust it) This causes things like toe out and in depending on which way you move the strut. Robbclark said it right. So is the only way to counter this change in toe to change your tie rod lengths?
The tie rod end can be made longer and shorter, but only within certain specs. How else would they be able to fix the alignement? You can look in there and see that it is threaded and there is a bolt. You can change your toe by adjusting the tie rod or by changing the camber. Changing the tie rod would be the better and more accurate adjustment. If someone could make a more adjustable tie rod end (sorta like our rear camber kit) then that might be beneficial.
in the pic above, right behind the connector joint to the steering arm, you can see a nut behind it. That is the part that adjusts the toe.
__________________ Life isnt a test drive, gotta live a little. (02fpcivic)
lease: You're being fed bullshit, all you have to do is rotate the plate. No one designed it like that, it wasn't engineered to do that, its the simple principle of a bolt circle. You can position the slot any way you want as long as the 3 bolts fit in the uniformly spaced holes. Whoever is marketing these things needs to be slapped around by a couple engineers. A true camber/caster plate has a square in it so you can adjust one independently of the other... Subarus are fully camber and caster adjustable.
