MamaBear2015

Yeah, I agree. I'd much rather get the engine fixed, once and for all, and have a decent car. The challenge appears to be getting it diagnosed accurately by the mechanic, and fixed for the least expense, instead of the shotgun approach that only cost us $460 for a radiator over the summer, and we still have the problem.

Instead of faxing, I'm going to visit him this week and ask if he saw the bubble test video of yours, that I faxed him. I know he's been super busy. I think he's got 3 guys working with him and they've got something like 4.9 stars out of 5 in the Google Reviews ( a lot of reviews, not just a few ) and have been so busy that they could have hired more help but have been choosing to work late instead. I think they work 'till 7 or 8 many nights.

ezone

Fax? I hope you meant something else. You can't fax a video.

EDIT: maybe those damn teenagers can do that, but I sure can't.

MamaBear2015

I faxed him the link to the thread and your message about the video.

Oh crap! This just reminded me! I just found out this week, that my RingCentral e-faxes haven't been working! It's a way of emailing a fax transmission, instead of having a fax line and machine. You put in the phone number xxx-xxx-xxxx@RCfax.com as the email address you're emailing to, and it sends the fax via their service. But for awhile now, since I started using it, people weren't getting my faxes. So I called them this week and talked to support and they said that you cant put the text in the body of the email message, it has to be as an attachment, in .doc file format. So I started doing that and it started working!

I just resent the one to my mechanic. Arghhh!

MamaBear2015

Ezone, speaking of your bubble test, I called my mechanic today and he said that he got my fax and took a look at your bubble test video, and he does something a little more sophisticated and does an injection test on the coolant, to determine if any exhaust gases are in it, and he didn't find any.

It must be something like this?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjUkh7SZu5c

Anyway, I stressed with him that we need to do something before the weather warms, because now, in the heating season, I can tell when it gets low every week, because the heater stops working so well until I add coolant, but in warm weather, the temp gauge is the only way to tell, and that's past the point we're at now.

So I'm leaving it with him next week and he's going to start by changing the valve cover gasket that's been dripping a little oil in the driveway, checking to see if front & back seals are also involved, and then removing the cover from the water pump and timing belt and inspecting the pump. Should know something by Wednesday.

Thanks!

ezone

That's what I thought.



Sadly, your mechanic will not find the problem using that test.....not until the problem in your engine becomes HUGE.

"A little more sophisticated" isn't worth a sh** if it can't find the problem.





There's a reason there are 27,000 different threads and posts by people who can't figure out why their car overheats/loses coolant/has no heat, and more posters make new threads about the same problem each week.


There's a reason I keep saying all the checks most people think of will not find the head gasket problem in that engine, while the leak rate is small (yours is still small at this point).

There's a reason I took the time to make the video of the test that has worked without fail for me.

There's a reason I skip all other checks everyone else does (like the checks your guy has done).....I go straight to the only test that proves the problem the first time, every time.


STOP! Forget it. Don't do it.
The water pump is not the cause of your problem.
The valve cover gasket is not the cause of your problem.
At this point you will just waste money by having him do that work by itself.


If your guy is willing to just do the damn head gasket and get it over with, then go for it.
At that time he can do the water pump and timing belt and whatever else along with the head gasket job. The valve cover gasket will be included in the head gasket job.

MamaBear2015

OK, I'm gonna print this post and take it to him Monday and see if he can do it with me there. How long does it take? 10 minutes? I cant imagine why he would refuse.

ezone

Please note that post and video and my rant are all about one particular engine, one type of design, and one very specific failure that this particular engine exhibits almost exclusively.

On other engines with similar problems but different symptoms, my test methods may be different from the above.


Edit: If he can perform my test correctly and it does not produce conclusive results, then I might shut up and you guys can then continue looking for why you keep losing heat once a week.

MamaBear2015

By the way, I was warming up the car in the driveway this week ( the radiator and coolant bottle caps were off and the air temp was around 40 degrees ) , to put in more coolant, and I let it run for 20 minutes and the temp gauge never moved up from the bottom. Is that an indicator that the thermostat is bad, being it should stay closed until warmed up?

ezone

Kinda depends.....Was the heater fan turned on during that time? That can cause a long delay in warming up.

Simply idling the engine doesn't create much excess heat, so it does take a long time to get one warmed up....much longer than if you were driving it on the road and burning more fuel.


If it were a bad thermostat causing no heat it would have to be stuck open....and you may observe rapid liquid flow just below the neck of the radiator while you have it open. Rapid flow. Normally with a cold engine running you might see slow movement or some swirling, but not rapid flow..

If the thermostat were stuck open you'd probably also notice it taking longer than normal amount of time (or miles) for the gauge to show movement while driving normally (when the radiator and everything are correctly filled).
EDIT: A thermostat stuck open will usually cause a fault code P0128 for taking too long to warm up.



If filling the radiator restores normal heater operation and temp gauge operation, that should pretty much rule out a faulty thermostat.

Side note, I've seen thermostats physically damaged from a major engine overheat.. Just FYI.

MamaBear2015

Thanks Ezone! I'll get the coolant problem fixed first, then see. Sounds like too many variables otherwise.

ezone

If you really want a thermostat replacement, I'd just add it to the list of parts to include with the head gasket job.

Again, aftermarket parts are crapshoot. Many cheaper thermostats are garbage in a short time, if not bad right out of the box. Yeah that really happens, and it happens far too often.

I'd get all parts from Honda.
Head gasket, water pump, timing belt, the whole nine yards.






Autozone: Turning your Honda into a Daewoo one piece at a time

MamaBear2015

Ezone: So let me get this straight. Maybe I can even do this here, without my mechanic ( why waste his time? ).

There's a hose that runs from the overflow reservoir back to the radiator. Remove that hose from the radiator and put it into some water,m then rev the engine ( not redline ) and look for bubbles. I can have my sister rev the engine.

Can the engine be cold? Or must it be at open thermostat temperature?

ezone

You mean like in the video made by scooty?
Yes, except the hose must remain attached to the radiator....or get a different hose you can attach to the radiator so you don't have to mess with trying to get it unhooked from the white plastic reservoir.

PROBLEM:
I believe that right now your cars problem is not severe enough for that method to produce a reliable result.
If your car takes 7-10 days of normal driving to displace about a quart of liquid from the radiator, you probably aren't going to see anything of value in 10-15-30 minutes watching for bubbles.


Check this thread/post where scooty decided he had a head gasket problem...If I remember right his car was needing more coolant in the radiator every day or every couple days....which is a much more rapid loss than your car has right now...
https://www.civicforums.com/forums/1...ml#post4629367 <---link, clicky!

MamaBear2015

Ok, I guess I was confused. You said something about doing the test in your video that you made, I think, and that it would be conclusive. Maybe I had the wrong video.

I THINK my mechanic said that they injection tested the coolant for exhaust ( Which you've said wouldn't find it at this point. ), and pressure tested the cylinders.

ezone

Mine is the OTHER video in the same post. Mine is 11 minutes long.
Scootys video is only like 39 seconds long.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=bDHkaU-EndY <---Linky Clicky

NDNV

This thread certainly seems like it belongs amongst the plethora of 7th gen Civics with a failed HG - mine included. Talk about HEAT after its fixed - can't hold my hand over the vent for long at full heat.

MamaBear2015

I took it back to my mechanic and asked that he do your test. He was about to, but before that, he reran the injection test and this time, found evidence of CO2 in the coolant - said the head gasket is bad now. But he doesn't do major repairs like that, so I'm looking around.

I emailed another local mechanic, who replied:

"Yes we do major engine repairs. This year Honda has problems with cracks in heads or blocks. Had one in here last week with the same issue. If you haven't overheated the engine, I would suspect a crack in either the head or block. If the block is cracked then you might as well get rid of the car since replacing the engine would run around $3500. We normally get around $2500 to pull the head, have it checked and rebuild."

WOW, this took me by surprise. Do these engines have that problem commonly?

5.0Thunder

Lol a plethora of poor mechanics in your area.

5.0Thunder

"your specific year of car with that paint color and your radio presets is known to shoot pistons through the oil pan. It'll cost $3k to fix"

ezone

It's been bad all along. Too bad he didn't understand this long ago.

Only picks the low hanging fruit huh?



Obviously (at least obvious to me) he is confusing your particular year/engine/series/generation of car with the one that has a known issue with cracking (2006-09 could have that issue, it's not a known problem with either of your cars)

This leads me to believe you shouldn't bother with that one again.

Call your local Honda dealers and inquire pricing. Don't you have about 6 Honda dealers within easy driving distance there?

MamaBear2015

Need to check. I've always thought of dealerships as having the absolutely highest prices around, but it wouldn't hurt to get a baseline.

ezone

Get itemized estimates.
Make sure to mention all the items you want with the job (timing belt service and whatnot), but when you compare estimates make sure you are comparing apples to apples.

I just assume nobody is gonna do the same work exactly the same way (make sure parts lists are identical), but the outcome should be damn similar when it's done.
Head gasket job for the heat problem, and timing belt stuff is maintenance while the engine is apart to do the head gasket work.


Your 6 or so local dealerships might even compete on prices just to get your business (if they know what the other shops quotes are). In my area February is always kind of slow, I'd be happy to do a head gasket job on that car and I bet the manager would be willing to cut a deal on the work LOL.


There's always a bunch of variables, but there are many times I'll be doing some work in a car and find a receipt for some job done elsewhere and it amazes me how much they got charged, and how much less it could have been if our shop had done the same work.


Not always though, but there is a lot of work we do cheaper. I think a lot of shops prey on their clientele just because so many people do think dealers are sky high, so any independent shop must be cheaper...without actually checking. ..

Chain stores doing brake jobs is sometimes freekin amazing. The low advertised price gets you in the door, but before it's over they might nail you for over 800 per axle. Seems like older people driving newer cars are at high risk of getting taken advantage of by an unscrupulous opportunist.


I can't say dealers are perfect (not even me, I make occasional mistakes too LOL), low paid and low skill employees tend to do the majority of the low tech work in a lot of shops, independent and dealer alike...
Few, if any shops can afford a full staff of top gun talent.

======

I recently heard of a Honda that was at a local shop for the horn honking randomly when they drive over bumps...... That shop fires the parts cannon at it, calls our parts department wanting the horn, horn relay, horn switches, bla bla bla without any clue what's involved in the system (airbag assembly, multiplex control unit, etc.) and it's pretty apparent by the shopping list that nobody in that shop actually diagnosed anything.....

Eventually that shop has about $800 worth of parts ordered from us, and I'm sure they are charging a healthy amount of labor for that work too. Figure the final bill will be well over a grand.

..... Now here's the bad part: Since some of us in the dealer do know these cars well (and because they are ordering this random pile of parts that we have never ever seen go bad), we checked the VIN of the car and found some history....Then had our parts person ask that shop a few questions
We hear the issue began after shortly the car got the airbag recall done. Yep. If the owner had simply returned to whomever did that airbag recall and explained the problem, I'm sure a decent tech would probably find that the installer didn't get one of the wire bundles clipped in the right spot during installation (a rather common oversight on a couple models)...and if so, it shouldn't have cost the owner of the car a dime for the shop to correct the issue.

But nooooo....Can't go to the dealer, they are waaay too expensive.


Hell, earlier today I did some work to a car then pulled the car outside as ready to go, and totally overlooked plugging in one wiring connector. 3 minutes after the car leaves, they turn around and come right back in and say bla bla bla doesn't work now...... and I can't even make up excuses...I just was busy and overlooked it.
Oops.. I'm human. Sorry. I'll take care of that, no problem..
2 minutes later, it's okay again.

MamaBear2015

Actually, it's been dripping oil in the driveway too. My mechanic says it's the valve cover and possibly front and back seals of some kind in there. So we may as well do the head gasket and that, plus timing belt and water pump while they're at it?

There's an idea.

Interesting. Don't discount dealerships.

The horn honking thing sounds a little fun - at least the first few times.

I know I'll NEVER go to Midas again, because they cost me about $800 years ago and didn't solve the problem. I HATE people using the shotgun approach with MY money!

Yeah, we're all human and we all make mistakes. Long as no one dies because of them, we can sleep at night.

MamaBear2015

Wow, this sounds encouraging, for just the head gasket:

The 2002 Civic does NOT have a history of cracks. There is a period from
2005 - 2007, I believe, that had some porous blocks where they extended the
warranty period.

Is it possible something is cracked? Yes, but not likely. More often there
is head warpage, but that is easily handled.

Using the best parts, which means we only get them from Honda, the repair
will run about $1050.00, if all goes smoothly. Anything we find wrong
besides a bad head gasket and warped head will be additional money.

My apologies for dropping the ball yesterday. At this point, tomorrow would
be better check your car. We'll need it for at least an hour. We can give
you our Honda Civic Hybrid loaner car and we can inspect it Friday and
repair it Monday into Tuesday, probably.

ezone

Sounds like you got a service advisor who, while they may not know a lot of technical details (most don't, that's not their job), sounds professional enough and has some experience with the brand, and presented an estimate that seems very reasonable to me so far....and wants your business (offering use of a loaner car right up front is a big plus there).

Realistic time estimate, that's good too. Best case is the job completed in one day, but realistically 2-3 working days is sure possible if the head needs more work at a machine shop, we sure can't get in a hurry when other shops/people become involved in the process.
(Big jobs always take a long time if I have to do the work, because I can't ever be left alone to get the work done. I always get called on to do a lot of other work during the day.)



-How much to toss in the timing belt while it's apart? (part $ plus just a little more labor)
-Inspect water pump, add if needed
-same for the timing belt tensioner pulley set, add if needed

-Add cam plug to the list, that's a common oil leak on that engine and not included in the head gasket set

-I think the VTEC gasket comes included with the head gasket set, but ask to make sure it will be replaced

-Valve cover gasket should be replaced as part of the work, that gasket is already included with the set (no additional cost).

MamaBear2015

Thanks Ezone.

MamaBear2015

Ok, I dropped the car off at a highly reviewed local place that does major engine repairs, last Thursday. The redacted receipt below shows what they did. They were concerned about that "liquid glass" stuff, so they replaced all the coolant. They said it leaked into the oil too, so they did an oil change. They were concerned that the head might be cracked, in which case we'd have a REAL expensive problem, so they sent it out to a machine shop for pressure testing and they said it was good and resurfaced it.

They changed the thermostat too, out of concern about the liquid glass. I mentioned an oil drip in the driveway. They replaced the valve cover gasket and said that they found leaks in the Vtec solenoid gaskets, or something ( listed there ). So hopefully that will be solved now.

They looked at the timing belt and water pump and said the water pump looked new and the timing belt was fine, so they refrained from those.

This bill seems pretty decent, considering all that was done. So HOPEFULLY now, no more coolant leaks, or oil leaks.

It seems to be driving fine, but what does that mean? Just gotta wait and see, I guess, and hope for the best.

ezone

You'll know in about 2 weeks when your heater still works right and you don't have to refill the radiator.

NDNV

Bill seems reasonable for what was done. Hopefully the end of your saga.

MamaBear2015

Yeah, exactly!

And I have some old cat litter for the driveway, if it doesn't drip oil anymore.

Thanks guys!