RustyShackle

I had my timing belt/water pump replaced today at the dealer and they noted that the engine coolant pressure seemed high and recommend that I watch for overheating. As far as I know my temp gauge has never gone over half way so I am flipped out trying to understand what the problem could be.

Last summer (hot weather like today) I had my car in for an oil change at my personal mechanic and he noted coolant in the overflow reservoir. Naturally, he warned me of head gasket failure since it is so common. We just threw on a new rad cap (not Honda OEM ) and that was it. Another interesting anecdote from this winter when it was unseasonably cold -10 C, I was having a hard time getting enough heat to de-ice/fog the front windshield.

What else could be causing these issues? Thermostat? I am very confused because to the best of my knowledge I have had no coolant loss or overheating which would be dead giveaway of head gasket failure.

ezone

This might sound stupid......but WHY would someone mention this part? Pressure on the cooling system is absolutely normal depending on conditions.....that's why there is a pressure relief cap on the radiator.

You just need to watch the temp gauge, and watch coolant levels in the radiator and reservoir. If the reservoir overflows and the radiator goes low, that's a problem.

NDNV

Lack of heat in my 2003 EL was what led me to test for a failed head gasket. It was faulty and replaced ASAP along with the timing belt service. This is a common issue so watch for it.

RustyShackle

Can I pick your brain again ezone?

Found out from the Honda tech my car has noise coming from the input shaft. The car has always had a slight growl in 1st gear while accelerating since I've had it (10'000 km approx. 2 years) and car came from a family friend single owner. No audible bearing noise while idling or when clutch depressed like I've seen on youtube. They want $2000 for parts + labor for a full trans overhaul and another $900 for a new clutch install. Approx. $2900 total.

At what point to you make the decision to get rid of a car? I know it is a circumstantial question but I'm looking for any advice I can get.

ezone

Has the noise gotten any worse in that time?
Have you compared to another similar car?


Is it bad enough to worry about yet?

Do you have to turn the radio down to hear it?
Or....Do other people go for a ride and yell "WHAT THE HELL IS ALL THAT NOISE????"

Would fluid service prolong the life of it?



That seems high but I'd need to see a breakdown of the estimate. A trans overhaul might be worth 12 hours of labor, plus parts.....is their labor rate 200 per hour or something? What all do they want to include in an overhaul? Why not just go inside and fix the noisy stuff instead?

Seems like a clutch parts replacement while the trans is already out of the way wouldn't be that much unless they are including the cost of a flywheel or something....plus maybe an extra hour of labor or so on top of the trans job. (But I didn't look up prices of clutch parts either)
You don't HAVE to buy their suggested repairs. You CAN get other opinions and estimates on it.

RustyShackle

Update: After some careful listening I can definitely hear the bearing noise more clearly and it does in fact disappear when I disengage the clutch.

A better breakdown of the service after taxes: $429 in parts for complete trans overhaul (all bearings and seals), $805 in parts for clutch replacement (includes $105 to machine flywheel), and $1700 labor (12.8 hours for trans overhaul and 0.9 hours for clutch replacement). I was also able to swindle an extra 10% off total since I'm a repeat customer.

Seem reasonable? The things that seem off to me are the friction disk (22200-PLR-023) for $248 and pressure disk (22300-PLR-003) for $278.

I live in the peoples republic of Canada so pricing is probably slightly inflated compared to the USA. I've thought about taking it to a tranny shop in town but I don't see the point of possibly saving a few hundred bucks only to have something go catastrophically wrong down the line.

ezone

Resurfacing the flywheel is not recommended.. Says so in the service manual.
If it's a dual-mass flywheel, don't even think about machining it.

I have always had good luck not touching the flywheel at all, as long as the disc contact surface is decent. Bolt the new clutch parts on and go.


Measure clutch parts and see if it needs it first?

Aftermarket clutch kit (complete) can save some loot over factory parts.
Use a good well known name brand though. Others may chime in with decent brands?
Do replace pilot bearing, should come in a decent kit.

The trans really doesn't seem to have much problems other than the input shaft bearings (and high mileage syncro ring wear), so a bunch more can be saved if you choose to only replace those (assuming that's the problem in the first place)
.......and the seals (HONDA PARTS) should be done, I agree there.

Labor hours sounds fair IMO.

The 2 prices you posted don't seem out of line for dealer parts. If you want to check their parts prices against a Canadian dealer, enter the part numbers here: http://torontohondaparts.com


But is the noise really a huge problem yet?

RustyShackle

Strange they would suggest machining the flywheel if it's not recommended. How do I know if I have a fancy flywheel? The new one suggested on my invoice if I don't resurface is 22100-PLR-003.

The thing is if I ask them to put in an Exedy clutch kit instead of Honda OEM I can't see them being behind me if something goes awry down the road? I might save $300 using another clutch kit but I imagine they would put a hex on the 10% discount they are giving me LOL.

I am doing a lot of mental gymnastics here

ezone

Old habits die hard.
Machining the flywheel has been a traditional part of a clutch job in the past, and it was perfectly fine. Back then.
My service manager still thinks everything on wheels is as simple as a small block Chevy engine.

Not many people actually READ the service manuals, and fewer yet comprehend what they read. (*raises hand*)

Is the info provided in popular aftermarket service information the same as info provided by the factory? IDK.

If you can't see it, you'll never know unless they tell you.
My service info indicated it should be dual-mass type. Doesn't say it outright, but indicated by the description of what NOT to take apart on it.

It's been so long since I saw a clutch job in a Civic, it ain't funny.

However, I had to put a 3rd gear set in an Accord V6 6-speed a while back, that part of the bill was close to 3 grand in US dollars. No bearings, no clutch, just the gear set and some seals. We had included the clutch job while the trans was out, but the clutch in the car still held ok and didn't slip so the owner declined the clutch parts. It also had a dual-mass flywheel.

Note: Just because a clutch doesn't slip right now, doesn't mean it isn't worn out. It only means it isn't bad enough to slip. Typically there is not much time between noticing a slip and the car becoming undriveable.

Reusing is FREE if it's in decent shape.
If the current clutch isn't worn out and didn't go to rivets, the flywheel surface might be just fine.


Ask them. Ask about the warranty too.
The job is worth a lot of labor, the shop wants your money, they will probably work with you on some things to get you to buy the work.

It's sometimes hard to predict what will be found once the job commences, so many estimates cover every possible issue we can think of ahead of time.

Changing the clutch while the trans is out makes economic sense (if the clutch goes out the next month that's another 6 hours of labor to change it), but what if the clutch were already a recent replacement, what then?





But... Just how loud is the noise????

RustyShackle

Sorry I keep forgetting to answer your question, I basically have to turn off the stereo and cabin air to hear the noise it at idle (but it seems louder now that I'm flipped out over it lol). I don't know if I could pick it up recording with my phone.

The growl accelerating in first gear is more noticeable I guess (my dad said he's heard it since we got the car). I honestly always thought the noise was the VTEC engaging (shows how much I know).

I'm 99% certain the clutch has had no service ever done but will double check (147xxx km). I learned standard on this car but I picked it up pretty quick and I do not ride the clutch or have any other bad habits that I know of. Previous owner is a work buddy of my dad's and only drives manuals so I don't think it will be that ****ed up. Have never once felt clutch slip but like you said who knows until it's apart.

Like you outlined earlier if someone was in my car they wouldn't yell WHAT THE HELL IS THAT NOISE???

ezone

I know it's impossible to describe over the internet, but how loud is this part?


You're in Canada, how much longer will the car last? Will the bearing noise get much worse before the car rots away? (IDK what your rust situation is like there)
Yeah that was kind of exaggerated LOL.....but I've heard some other gearboxes about that loud.
An old Mazda truck I looked at one time (I was a Mazda dealer tech back then too and heard loud transmissions all the time) it had the loudest trans I had heard that still had all 5 gears working, and told the owner that. He later said it lost 5th gear the next day.

RustyShackle

The only way I can describe it is a slight growl about same frequency of engine. Maybe I can record it.

I live 150 miles from Seattle and all work not done at Acura/Honda (Just had my killer Takata inflators replaced) was done by my personal mechanic. Zero rust only left town in the summer.

That's the million dollar question.

ezone

DIY trans bearings? Roll up your sleeves!

RustyShackle

So I took it out for a spin today: the input shaft noise at idle goes away after driving for about 5 minutes.

As for the growl I am trying to describe: https://*******/Qvip

ezone

Oh yeah that's significant. It's time to do it IMO.

RustyShackle

Thanks ezone really appreciate your input (no pun intended).

So what actually causes the ISB to go bad? Seems like it is not that uncommon for it to go.

Bad luck? Bad design by Honda? Poor trans fluid maintenance?

All of the above?

Colin42

seems to be a design flaw

NDNV

Keep in mind you have just sunk $ for the timing belt service and may need the HG repair soon too. If you plan to keep the car for a few years then maybe $4K in repairs will be worth it to keep it going... Your car might sell now for around $5K.

ezone

Weak design? Poor quality from the supplier?
IDK. I just fix em when someone will buy the job. It would be easy money if someone would actually buy the repairs at my dealer. (I can't even remember the last time I did a Civic clutch job)

If someone with a bad one has never had the fluid serviced, it's real easy to point at that as a likely cause.

Or a couple days work in the driveway, and a few hundred dollars to DIY.

How do you think I got started in this line of work?

RustyShackle

My mechanic did the chemical combustion leak test and the car passed.

He also said the coolant system seemed over pressured?

ezone

If one knows there is a problem.....Passing any given test does NOT mean all is well. It only means you didn't do the right test.
Most of these head gasket failures will pass every check most people can think of while in early stages of failure.
Meaningless without substantiation.


Read everything in the first post of this thread, including the videos:
https://www.civicforums.com/forums/3...reference.html

RustyShackle

I had a talk again with Honda about the head gasket replacement and they seem to want the cylinder head sent to a machine shop. This seems like BS to me since the car has never overheated so how could the head be warped?

How common is it for a cylinder head in early stages of gasket failure to need to be machined?

ezone

Standard practice. Especially if nobody in the shop owns a precision straightedge to measure if the head is flat or not. (I own one, they are not cheap)
I include machine shop expense on almost every head gasket estimate I make, just to cover my azz if it really does need to go there.
If it needs to go, it's already covered and we don't have to call the cust and say "we need more money for such and such".
If it doesn't need to go to the machine shop, then we come in under bid and the cust is happy.


Some of us in the business have enough experience to know better than to completely trust customers, they are rarely well versed in all things mechanical and automotive.
Customers also lie and withhold critical information, sometimes because they think that will make it cheaper or because they don't want to admit what actually happened, or whatever.

I'll take your story with a grain of salt, then when that head comes off it gets measured....and then we know the truth.

If it hasn't been hot it will probably be fine.


HTH

RustyShackle

Update on the transmission overhaul:

Everything was fine except 2 bearings and a few oil seals. As for the new clutch they said the flywheel was in good shape and didn't need to be resurfaced which I'm happy about.

I got the two bearings they took out and my god are they loud and wobbly. In total the trans overhaul + new clutch was $2050, about $400 less than expected.

RustyShackle

I was checking on my coolant overflow today and noticed the exhaust manifold only had one bolt holding it, is this normal?




The first day I got the car back after the trans overhaul there was burning grease coming from the bolt creating some smoke which has since disappeared.

ezone

On a phone, cant see pics good.

The top shield should have 2 bolts at the top which go through the manifold into the head

Edit: is that a 1.7 engine or something else?

RustyShackle

I'm talking about the lower part where it starts to go into the exhaust. My pics aren't the best here is the empty hole I think I'm looking at.

ezone

Heat shield is held in with the 3 bolts shown on the left pic.

The open hole you point at might be for a support bracket on the front of the block, if there arent any below

RustyShackle

Yes this is a D17A2.

I'll have Honda look at it on Mon the car just started making a minor high-pitched squeak-squeak-squeak noise from the front end when moving that seems to come and go randomly when driving. It gets higher in frequency when travelling faster.

It doesn't make any noise when idling and I have brand new timing and aux belts, doesn't seem to get worse or disappear when turning in a specific direction or when brakes are applied. I can coast down my driveway in neutral and the squeak is still there.

I really have no clue what could cause this noise to start up. There was complete silence when I first got my car back from the trans overhaul on Wed through yesterday.

RustyShackle

Any idea what could be squeaking given the timing belt and trans service I've had done recently?