Ken71701

2002 Civic EX 1.7 stock

It hasn't started since i replaced the timing belt again. i've double/triple checked that it's not a tooth off on the timing. the first time i did it, it fired right up. Car always ran really great. 188k miles.

Car tries to start initially, like on first few revolutions, but then nothing. It will try to run with a shot of starting fluid, but won't continue. Acts like it's starving for fuel, or begins with spark and loses it. either way, only an initial "busting off", but no start.

I have fuel to the rail, verified by popping the pressurized fuel line off (not recommended) and all the injectors test (resistance) the same, leading me to believe they are all still good. i've checked for spark and have it at all plugs.


I've verified the basic operation of both cam and crank position sensors (0V - 5V cycling).

Do have the ground strap on the thermostat housing.

Not sure where to go next with it. I'm not terribly familiar with these cars.

I wonder if i missed something, or messed something up this time and just can't see/find it.

thanks, Kenny

ezone

Unplug the cam sensor, see if it will start. If it starts and runs, then either the cam is not timed correctly of the sensor went flaky.

If you unplugged the crank sensor to do the timing belt work, the connector may have problems like poor terminal contact.


Just thoughts here.

Ken71701

i'll try that.
I did unplug the crank sensor, just a day or so ago, verifying 12V coming in to the sensor.

NDNV

I know you said you checked, but sounds like timing could be off.

Ken71701

Anything is possible. I'll have another look. I have the upper timing cover still off so it will be easy enough to check.

Ken71701

Unplugged cam sensor. No change in behavior

Ken71701

Since it seems like my injectors are not firing, how can I check for the pulse going to the injectors?

ezone

Unplug one injector. I'd use an LED test light for this check

Key on

should be battery voltage found on one of the wires (If not, stop and figure out why)

other wire will be a pulsed ground operated by the computer, LED would flash during cranking if it has a pulse (may need eyeballs close to see it flash, and have someone else cranking it over)


Got spark?
Spark plugs--are they dry or wet?

Ken71701

I've got spark (previously verified), even saw the pulse to the coils when I inadvertently hooked my LED to the coil harness and not injector harness.
Hooked the LED to the injector plug and also got pulse with someone cranking it for me.
Got battery charging, will go back in a bit and try to crank and pull the plugs and let you know. previous attempts have show them to be mostly dry, certainly not wet (flooded). But i'll get an updated read on the plugs after while.
Battery was borrowed from my daily driver and just under 12V, but battery voltage hasn't mattered so far. 13V didn't help in the past.

ezone

If you spray a little carb and throttle cleaner into the intake then crank it, will it try to fire on that? That would prove 'lack of fuel' problem.

Ken71701

It has, more so in the past. I shot a little at it today and it didn't respond like it had.
I'll do that again when battery is hot and i intend to check the plugs

ezone

All this started since you did a timing belt......What could have gone wrong here?

Crank gear on backwards? (IDK if it's even possible)
Out of time?
Got compression?
CKP or CMP sensor fault?

Got a scanner? Got codes? Got live engine data?

Ken71701

for the second tim. did it once, ran great for a few days, had a tensioner accident, bent all valves, went to zero compression. fixed tenioner, replaced head ("good" used) and head gasket. here we are.

never pulled it
checked, double-checked, etc
low (100-105 lbs on all 4), but even and comes up with a squirt of oil in each cyl (rings)
each one sends 5V pulses when rotated

yep
only intake air temp, but sensor was unplugged.
i wish, can't crank it yet

ezone

That info helps...more ideas.

That engine you got the head from, did it actually run?


Ever take the cam gear off and check the keyway?

Compression is scary low. WHY? Valve adjustment? Flooded? Cam timing off?

Bad tester? Bad test method?
I fully expect every one of those engines to hit 180-200+ PSI easily when using my gauges and methods.

How much does it come up when oiled?
I meant a scanner or app that can let you read LIVE engine data from the computer. What's the coolant temp reading?Sooooo is this a starter problem now or do you just have it taken apart so it can't be cranked?

Ken71701

Never heard it run, was buying the head for the valves in it since mine were bent. it looked really good and didn't have sloppy rockers from bent valves like mine so i decided to use as it. It is an unknown factor at this point


I don't recall removing this cam gear, so i wont know without pulling the belt and gear and verifying. Seems like it's a pin rather than keyway, but same principle.


unknown. I had never checked it before to know what my baseline was before my initial troubles (overheating, water loss, typical civic issue). I don't know what the lowest compression needed for this engine might be. I have a '77 GL1000 that is below spec at 95-100 per cyl and it fires up instantly. I hoped the civic would too.

10 lbs or so?


Had never hooked up the cheapo code reader before today its the ELM327 wireless interface, using the Fourstroke app. I don't know if i have or can get the info you are after.

no. i mis-spoke. it still won't start, cranks over fine.

ezone

If the cam were not aligned correctly to the gear (pulley) that's the same effect as incorrect timing belt timing. Valve timing would be wrong even though it may look right on the pulley. It was just a thought.

Valve adjustments double checked and correct?

If it really has all 4 at 100 PSI I wouldn't expect it to run. It would probably wash the plugs and/or foul them out regularly if it did run.

Try your tester on a known good engine to see if it is halfway accurate?

Also the methods used for a compression test have a great effect on the outcome.
I like to have a good strong battery or a charger connected during testing because cranking speed has to be consistent throughout the test .
All plugs out
Throttle blocked wide open
Install gauge and place where it can be seen during cranking.
Crank engine.
Keep cranking until the gauge quits increasing.
Keep on cranking for several more 'hits' just to make sure it's really maxed out.



If someone broke or lost the original Schrader valve from the end of the whip and replaced it with one from a tire valve stem, that cuts the test values by about half. The valve is special for compression testers.

Sounds like a normal increase. Not indicating a ring problem.

Refer to other comments and figure out why your compression numbers are so low. If it's only a code reader you probably aren't going to get any live data without spending more money. Scangauge? Torque app?


A quick google of the number led me to a site loudly proclaiming to NOT be a clone of the ELM whatever LOL...but it did say it should be able to show some data

• Can display sensor data like:
  
  
  1. Engine RPM
     
  2. Calculated Load Value
     
  3. Coolant Temperature
     
  4. Fuel System Status
     
  5. Vehicle Speed
     
  6. Short Term Fuel Trim
     
  7. Long Term Fuel Trim
     
  8. Intake Manifold Pressure
     
  9. Timing Advance
     
  10. Intake Air Temperature
      
  11. Air Flow Rate
      
  12. Absolute Throttle Position
      
  13. Oxygen sensor voltages/associated short term fuel trims
      
  14. Fuel System status
      
  15. Fuel Pressure
      
  16. ...over 4,000 - 15,000 additional values. Too many to list here

Probably more like a total of 20-25 usable generic data items.



ok

Ken71701

It was this. While i had never pulled the cam gear, I also hadn't verified it. The pin was missing, valvetrain out of time.

it cranked right up and ran a little bit, but jumped time again. Only about a tooth. I took it apart, scratched my head, put it back in time and it spun over to start it and jumped time again.

I put it back in time again and turned it a few times with just a wrench and it jumped a tooth again. i'm always turning is ccw. It appears to be slipping on the lower gear, which does have somewhat smooth-edged teeth. is this gear likely worn out and needs replaced? Is that somewhat common?

mikey1

not likely or common at all,

that gear should never need to be replaced,

me thinks your problem is elsewhere,

are you turning it using the crank or cam?

always use the crank to turn the engine, never the cam

Ken71701

crank, ccw. belt is tight between camgear and crank most of the time, but there appears to be brief moments where it goes a little slack, like the the valves/cam jump ahead a little like it's coming down from the high point of a cam lobe. that amount of slack could allow the belt to slip at the crank. It certainly doesn't look like it can slip on the cam gear.

mikey1

are you sure the tensioner is installed correctly?

did you remove the tensioner at all?

is the pin in the cam gear in properly?

cam bolt torqued to spec?

ezone

That is normal and the reason is correct...However, it shouldn't go extremely slack....Spring missing from tensioner? Spring stretched out? Mis-installed tensioner? (limiter position wrong)

Why in the hell would the dowel pin be missing or sheared out from between the cam and its pulley?

What did you do to correct that issue?

Ken71701

thought i did it right, but at this point, who knows.


not since the first mishap after initial changing of head gasket, water pump, belt and tensioner.

yes, and don't remember spec on the bolt, but it's plenty tight.

Ken71701

have no idea, this was on the replacement head.
i grabbed the cam gear off my old head. That's when the engine cranked up after all my previous trouble of no-start after reassembly in July. But it jumped a tooth again.

mikey1

did the engine ever run without the cam gear pin installed?

if it did you could have bent valves if the cam sprocket was not in its proper position

Ken71701

no, but it did fire right up after i put my old cam gear on the replacement head.

I backed the car up about 5 feet and i think that's when it jumped a tooth again.
timing marks were off again.

mikey1

you could still have bent valves just from cranking the engine if the timing was off,

when you removed the cam sprocket were the inlets where the pin goes lined up?

Ken71701

i suppose anything is possible, but it did crank up after i changed the cam gear.

The problem now is that i can line everything up and make a few manual revolutions of the motor and the timing marks will be off.

until that is resolved, I'm not concerned about the valves.

mikey1

i fail to see how this is possible, are you actually SEEING the belt jump time?

take a video?

i dont think you are installing the belt properly

line up the crank mark,

remove the spring from the tensioner, remove belt, line up cam mark,

LOOSEN the tensioner bolt, but do not remove it,

line up the two holes on the tensioner and put a pin through them,

install the belt COUNTERCLOCKWISE starting at the crank

install the tensioner spring,

now rotate the engine (yes with tensioner bolt loose)

Ken71701

I'm thinking i may not have the tensioner turned/installed correctly.

don't i need to remove the pin before rotating the engine?

What i've been doing is removing the spring, remove the belt from the cam gear, line up crank and cam marks, install the belt with no slack on the front side, reinstall the spring.

mikey1

no....leave the pin in, rotate the crank 2 rotation and check marks, if they line up, rotate it twice more and check again,

if everything is okay you tighten/torque the tensioner bolt,

then you remove the pin