dsm482

no no one touched the block, head is smooth with 120, but i will smooth it out more to 1200 which will be better than the block

it would be nice to have surface analyzing machine like i do at work.. see if its 15-30a rufness..

then everytime i use a machine shop i would know if its done right

dsm482

some updates.. i lapped the valves, and putting the head back together..
no leaks from valves.

I also painted and cleaned the rust from the water passage pipe..

kinda getting everything together to slap it together..

few thing:

it bothers me my dream crashed of driving this car to 500,000 without openning of engine, all due to bolt of cam gear coming off after 2 years after my timing belt... freak accident and i torqued it.. torque stic was off less then 1% i just checked it. I am gonna use locktite red this time...

I am thinking bying a 50 shot nitrus to play around since i have good new head..

I am gonna get second vehicle first .. so i wont be hussling like this.

some pics

dsm482

Finnaly i got it running today, i had issue with the exhaust spring bolt,,, got it fixed.. drove the car... runs well.. was little louder on tappets when i fired it up. then as the parts settled in it became normal.., its just like new.

I did adjust the valve lash when I installed the new valves, at the lower minimum of the OEM specification..

I also rellaped the valves myself using a drill..
I measured the head with straight edge, didnt have warpage ... i couldnt even get the smaller gauges in. But i still sanded it down on a granite piece i have with 120 grit, then 1000 grit to give it glass finish.. thanks EZONE for reminding the Surface needs to be 30RA.

these are old scholl methods but they do work if you know how..

I was plannning on driving it and maybe i will check lash again , after they break in and readjust .

dsm482

ok

ezone where are you?)


car runs fine.. i noticed new problem, i have loss some oil...

i did valves and new headgasket.. ..

I got no oil in coolant. .. valves were tested with gasoline for tightness. ..

I just redid compression test
Cyl1 cyl2 cyl3 Cyl4
210 210 210 210


where the **** is this oil gone?

I lost a quart or just half...

I ajdusted the valve lash, when the head was off the block, cold, toward the lower minimum... I wonder if I have to readjust it, since i ran the car and might have gone thru some heat cycles...

The only thing i can remember is that the felpro kit headgasket came with valve seal , that were all the same.. Honda has diffrent with intake an exhaust?

I never burned oil or loss oil... since new..

piston rings went bad all the sudden? look at compression ?

I am confused now, where the **** is the oil going.. I can see little black on spark plugs but nothing bad , i got no smoke?

dsm482

I did everything right , what the freaki lost a quart of oil somewhere?

I called felpro they said their design is like that , and it wont matter....
I wonder if i should do cylinder leakeage test, and maybe I will take the valve cover off and readjust the valves again..

I would notice by compression numbers, something is wrong.. 210 all cylinders.


I dont understand where is the oil gone...

dsm482

i will investigate more soon..

ezone

Rings or valves. With 275k I'd expect it needs rings.

How many miles per quart of oil?

dsm482

i havent measured that..

but compression is perfect? 210 all 4..

if i do cylinder leakeage i should be able to find it... I doubth the valves,, the only thing i can think off adjustment valve lash..

wouldnt you have a compression drop with piston rings.. no blue smoke

i took a picture of the plug will post later..

now whats this i read piston rings need to be lossened up on some honda's?

all the sudden from bent valves the piston rings went bad)

ezone

Hokay,
Are you positive you got it full of oil when it was assembled?
How many miles has it been driven since you got it running?
How much oil has it consumed in that time?


Compression test cannot evaluate oil control rings. They could be missing completely and you would still have good test results.

Cylinder leakage test shouldn't find oil consumption either.
You have great compression, you will have minimal leakage.

Spark plug reading only shows the last condition the engine was running under. If you fired it up to move it in the driveway then shut it off, the plugs will be dark.
(If you found crusty ash buildup on the electrodes that's different.)

A working cat can hide a LOT of oil smoke.

dsm482

yes I am , so since april 7 when i finished it to today i think a quart.. ,.. millage not so sure.. last oil change on 02/18/2016, and is due oil change now.. 6000 miles , I use synthethic oil.
but i will pay attention now.. figure more exact burn

how can i establish , here is a pic of spark plug.. note i replaced this at 220k with new.. so they got 50k on spark plugs.. i noticed little black on the plug looks like burnning oil.

ezone

You didn't change the oil after taking the head off?

dsm482

millage driven since running not sure, I have to establish that now..

my question is cylinder leakage test wont establish rings problem?

my plan was to test that.. I am supersized compression is great, runs great, no smoke.
Its assembled right.. not my first job..

also i was going to take the valve cover off, see the valve lash again.. I put it cold towards lower minimum, but i always checked ..
I am wondering if somehow from bending valves my piston rings from the impact took a crap also

dsm482

nope, nothing went into the oil.. for sure.

dsm482

let me take a better picture...

ezone

Only if there's a problem with the compression rings. Your compression test numbers say those are good.

You cannot evaluate oil control rings with a compression test, nor by cylinder leakage test.


Scored cylinder walls?
Leftover grit got into the cylinders? IDK.


I haven't seen that issue on this engine, they don't kiss in the right spot or hit hard enough to pinch the top ring (severely dent the edge of the piston).


I'm just looking at the high mileage on the engine.

dsm482

here they are, only on bottom ring i noticed little dark.. same plug few pics and angles..

dsm482

no grit leftover in cylinder wall i cleaned them .. no scoring all smooth..

yeah compression 210 all 4.. i can make video tuesday after work.. fuel pump disconnected by fuze number 15 below steering wheel.

the only thing i know off , is Felpro kit comes with one set fits all valve stem seals..

according to them their own design.. I called them because when I intalled them I noticed honda had diffrent for exhaust and intake.

according to felpro not a problem

ezone

3rd pic shows some speckles and crust (ash)

dsm482

its the same plug i just took closer up..

whats that tell me , plugs are old.. I was hoping to see black plugs...


I would have to see how much it burns.. before valves bent, no burn oil at all ever... first time i notice my oil down.. no oil leaks, i replaced everything from previous jobs.. not even a drip of oil in oil leak.

dsm482

and these oil control rings, i noticed u mention in other post u loosen them up or something happens to them.. so technically i could be getting oil past my rings even though am sealing with top ring...?

ezone

Black and dripping with oil would indicate one helluva rapid oil loss, the kind where you'd expect mosquito fogger amounts of smoke and misfire after the plug fouls out.

The ash deposits typically result from slow, long term oil burning. There doesn't look to be enough there to cause firing problems yet.

Is that the only plug showing signs of a problem, or do they all look this way?
Oil control rings do exactly the job the name implies.
Conversely, compression rings do a **** poor job of controlling oil.

(not considering 275k of wear here)
Oil rings tend to stick when carbon deposits build up in their piston groove.
After they stick in the groove they can't scrape oil off the cylinder walls very well.
Excess oil remaining on the walls as the piston makes its down stroke can be 'pushed up' by the compression rings on the next up stoke.
Guess where it goes after that....


BTW I don't want to rule out stem seals, but right now I assume they were installed correctly and without damage.

dsm482

yes stem seals were installed correctly, they onyl move down so far and sit on valve guide.. no damage for sure..

whats confusing me no oil burning before, now after bent valves somehow i damaged the oil rings, plus the millage off course..


also the felpro valve stem seals were all the same , no diffrence between intake and exhaust as hondas..
According to felpro their design works

ezone

All engines consume oil by design. There are many variables that may determine whether or not anyone notices.

You don't know you damaged rings. You don't know the rings are the problem either.


You just got out of the cold season? Change the oil and start monitoring the real consumption rate.

dsm482

i pay attention, like i never seen that dipstick dip down between oil changes,.. now in a month it used a quart of oil..

compression ring is good, proven by compression,test Right?
but like u said oil must be getting by the oil ring.. somehow , only logical explanation.. like you said i am up for an oil change .. so i will change and see how it goes.. maybe use 10w30 for the summer see what happens..

ezone

Time is not relevant here, mileage is. One person might drive 200 miles in a month. Another person might drive 6000 in a month. Huge difference.
Good enough to still have good compression.
The sealing ability should waver very little during the life and wear of the compression rings, up until they near the end of the wear limits.

Measuring the end gaps might be a good indicator of compression ring wear, and you'd have to pull the pistons out and take the rings off to measure that.

alex_nyc

@ezone -with the head off my engine, is there a way I can clean my piston rings with a liquid -without out taking the pistons out?

ezone

No way to give a definite answer there.

You could pour some cleaner in there (Top End Cleaner, Seafoam, Mopar Combustion Chamber Cleaner) and hope for the best, but without pulling the pistons out you can only hope. The compression rings may not allow much cleaner to reach the oil rings, and if the oil rings are really stuck the stuff might just pass on by them without doing much good.
Moving the crank a few degrees back and forth every so often might help work the stuff in and around too.


If you want to pour stuff into the cylinders, you would not need to remove the head at all.


I tried this with the GFs Saturn once, left the (Mopar) cleaner in the cylinders overnight.....I could not tell that there was any improvement in its oil consumption rate at all.



When I had the pistons out of my Fit engine (@200k miles), I left the pistons soaking in Mopars stuff just to see how long it would take to loosen them up. After about 4 days with the oil rings completely submerged in the fluid, I got the rings loose enough to spin in their grooves by hand. I still replaced the whole set anyway....I had them on order and it took a week to get them so I was just playing around while I waited.

alex_nyc

Im in the middle of a head gasket job. I have no oil problems Praise God!

just checking on what else to do while the head is off.

ezone

Ah, I didn't realize this was a threadjack LOL

alex_nyc