Desaleter

Hello everyone. I am new to these forums. I have a problem.
I decided to do a DIY timing belt, and water pump replacement on my 04 honda civic lx (D17A1) to rule out causes of overheating and coolant loss.

Okay I followed Creaker2's Honda civic DIY. lve got everything done.
Upon the last step of reasuring that the sprockets are in line with the timing marks. I saw the crank was off 1 tooth.. I thought ohh Il just remove the belt, leave the camshaft at TDC and TURN the crank shaft counter-clockwise 2 FULL rotations, set it back at TDC, put the belt back on, tensioned it.
Now the camshaft will not budge!!
Did I ruin my valves?!
I have Not started my engine as I am not sure what to do now anymore..

mikey1

it is most likely a blown head gasket that is causing this issue


why on earth would you rotate it 2 full rotations?

you only needed to move it one tooth

you most likely damaged some valves doing this +

the damage would occur to the cyl 2+3 valves, cyl 1+4 the valves would be fully closed at that cam position and would not interfere with the piston travel



.

Desaleter

I am guessing the only way to check is to pull the head.. While im at it mine as well replace the head gasket..

I had just replace the head gasket exactly one year from today. Well my mechanic did along with a remachineing of the head.
Also replace the fan,Radiator,T-stat, after the fix so it wouldnt happen again! .

mikey1

when you were rotating the crank did it seem to "get stuck" after about half a revolution/180 degrees and took alot more force to turn?

that would be the point when the pistons would be contacting the valves on cyl 2+3,

at this point i would rotate the crank 90 degrees from TDC, this will put all the pistons half way up the cylinders so you are free to remove the belt and move the cam all you want,

now remove the valve cover and see what is preventing the cam from turning, pay close attention to the #2+3 cylinder cam/rocker/valve area, you might even see something bent in that area

Desaleter

Yes I did feel the urge to apply more pressure as I rotated the crank..

Il check it out to make sure.
What would be the most efficient way of getting the car back on the road without a trip to the machine shop?
Would you consider just replace the bent valves?

ezone

Install timing belt.

Start the engine.
If it's missing on cyls 2 or 3, you hurt it.

Confirm with compression test if you wish.
Leakdown tests if you wish.
If you were to check valve clearances, any that are bent will have excessive clearance.

Pull the head off and proceed to replace whichever valves got bent.

New head gasket, never reuse it.

Desaleter

Thank you ezone & mikey,
Many respect to both of you for you're insights!

I will follow up on this thread to anyone else who runs into this costly mistake.

Wankenstein

If, it ends up that your valves are bent you basically have three options of replacement:

1) Pull one or buy an already pulled head from a local junkyard. Even if you go this route it's best to bring to a machine shop for testing, and inspection for cracks, valves check and resurfacing.

2) Ebay: can find rebuilt (machined) and non-rebuilt cylinder heads.

3) Bring the current one to a local machine shop for a rebuild, resurface.

ezone

Resurfacing should not be done UNLESS it is necessary.

If the head measures as warped (due to severe overheating), by all means resurface (machine) it.
But if the head measures as flat and within specs, there is no reason to resurface it.

A machinist who leaves the machined surface with an incorrect (rough) finish can cause a whole new set of problems.

Desaleter

Il pull it off this weekend & get it inspected.

Wankenstein

I assume a machinist wouldn't resurface without inspection/evaluation
I listed resurface as in the realm of a possibility.

ezone

We USED to have a machine shop here that would try to resurface every head they got their hands on.

I measure my own, I know what's up.
My dollars went elsewhere.
That shop closed up...for some strange reason.


The last remaining local auto machine shop here is pathetic, every head looks like it was hit by a belt sander....and they (apparently) can't understand it's wrong for the application and just....it's crap work plain and simple.
My dollars went elsewhere.

Now I send my heads to a machine shop in the next city an hour away just because they can get the surface finish right.

I don't give a sh** if it takes an extra day or the customer whines about time, my concern is that the work gets done right.




Besides, there's only so much material that can be machined off of the cylinder head. That's about 0.008" total that can be safely machined off of many heads.....so unnecessary machining can quickly turn it into junk.

Wankenstein

You mention on a lot of the head gasket related post that the cylinder head mating surface should be as smooth as glass. I remember mine felt that way after I had it machined locally. The cross-hatch pattern was visible but, very smooth to touch. Steve the owner: http://big-machine.com/services/ charged me $100 less than the other local machine shops. I feel I got lucky considering it was my first-time head gasket replacement.

ezone

Yeah, after resurfacing the head really should be as smooth as the factory made it. It's important for sealing, and longevity of the repair.

Funny thing, I cannot get a printed RA spec from any of Hondas info. I even called technical assistance some time ago, and they couldn't provide any specs either, other than 'nearly glass smooth'.

Desaleter

Alright guy's, I've looked into which HG's to purchase & Im thinking Honda OEM part #12251-PLC-004 may have a better seal as my previous gasket was by Fel-Pro..

Do ya'll think MLS will do a better job than Honda OEM nippon gasket?

I'm on a budget..

Since I'm going to be removing valves, I figured why not buy a Kit and ran into this set that includes the head-bolts valves and all necessary seals/gaskets on amazon
I haven't really gotten around removing anything as to me needing to buy parts
first before doing anything.

Hopefully some scotch brite clean pads and acetone will clean up
head mating surface as needed.

Desaleter

Alright guy's, I've looked into which HG's to purchase & Im thinking Honda OEM part #12251-PLC-004 may have a better seal as my previous gasket was by Fel-Pro..

Do ya'll think MLS will do a better job than Honda OEM nippon gasket?

I'm on a budget..

Since I'm going to be removing valves, I figured why not buy a Kit and ran into this set that includes the head-bolts valves and all necessary seals/gaskets on amazon I haven't really gotten around removing anything as to me needing to buy parts
first before doing anything.

Hopefully some scotch brite clean pads and acetone will clean up
head mating surface as needed.

ezone

OEM is MLS.

You will blow your budget all to hell if you buy the cheapest crap you can find.



"The cheapest people often spend the most."

TOO CHEAP. Probably garbage.

Google: CNS Engine Parts reviews


"The cheapest people often spend the most."

Throw away that Scotch Brite right now!
Use a single edge razor blade, carefully.

You don't need it to be spotless, you need it perfectly smooth and flat. Sanding marks from Scotch brite can lead to leaks and the leftover abrasive material can and will ruin bearings in a heartbeat.

Desaleter

Ill keep on searching for a reputable part seller, or just go with OEM just to not risk
having to do this all over again.

Desaleter

Throw away that Scotch Brite right now!
Use a single edge razor blade, carefully.

You don't need it to be spotless, you need it perfectly smooth and flat. Sanding marks from Scotch brite can lead to leaks and the leftover abrasive material can and will ruin bearings in a heartbeat.[/QUOTE]

I removed the head yesterday.
The machined face of mating surface has a sort of "grain" finish.
Not mirror like at all.

If I run my finger nail against the "grain" my nail will stub. Not alot. But just enough to not let it slide smoothly.

I don't know if I make that much sense. I will upload a url link to a flickr acount with the photos of the head and also the block.
https://m.flickr.com/#/photos/141750...2/26268534252/

ezone

I see blue gasket material ..... and the surface finish in your pic does not appear as I would have expected an original machined finish to appear.

IMHO: That head has been off at least once already, resurfaced (with questionable methods), and a Fel-Pro head gasket was used (blue is their trademark color).




The surface on the engine block should still have its original finish--- if nobody screwed that up by sanding it ---for comparison.

dsm482

i cant beleive you can bent the valves that much, i did mine at 2000 rpm i bet i could have reseted some of them.. if you bent them with a turn, there is a way to reset them or recut the valves edge .. it all depends how much did you bent them..

you can inspect them when u pull the head pull the cam, an use gasoline to find which ones are leaking .. if not bad , take them apart measure the seat and stem straightness.. maybe you can relapp them by hand..


unless you have some machining experience , i would recomend replacing them..

Desaleter

Block finish is smooth. I did not need to clean it when The head was removed. (Will be cleaned when re-placing everything).
I dont really see any valves bent. Well what I could see from.

The head has been machined for sure, its the finish im skepticle about.

Il just have to wait and see when I have a chance on getting it to a shop to check for cracks/refinish if necessary.

Desaleter

I will attempt to work some more this weekend. I could not tell if any were bent. Will do leak down test with wd40 or whatever I can find that has low surface tension.