Scout1

Hi everybody,

Almost exactly two years ago I asked for help with losing coolant. Ended up being the head gasket. I had the heads re done at one of the best shops in town and used quality parts. Checked the block surface a million times and checked good. Took my time and did the job by the book and torqued everything to specs. Everything has been good up til now. Now I am seeing the same original symptoms. The coolant overflow fills up and is not going back into the radiator when it cools down. I tried another radiator cap and no help. I am going to try and test it this weekend to confirm my suspicions.

The car has never over heated and runs good. My question is what would have made the gasket go bad again? There must be some kind of defect for so many of us to have this problem. I had a neighbor down the street have his go bad too. Car runs really good so I guess I will be doing the job over this Christmas.

Scout1

OK I will try and verify this too. I was just wondering why so many Civics have this problem. Has anyone figured out what Honda did. Did they not torque properly or use defective gaskets? Still wouldn't explain why my problem came back.

Ed

Scout1

Getting ahead of myself right now. If I determine that the head gasket is the issue, should I get new head bolts? I just don't understand why the repair only lasted two years.

Ed

thisguy357

not sure what motor u have but the d17a1 and d17a2 do NOT use stretch bolts, they should be fine... did you clean the bolt holes out really well and put engine oil on the head bolts before assembly...if not you may have picked up debris when torqing the head, when that happens the bolt locks down prematurely and never completely crushes the head gasket.

http://www.stockwiseauto.com/product...pe8aAtxn8P8HAQ

its the place your upper rad hose goes to on the block...it has the EGR mounted to the top of it. exhaust gas from cylinder 4 passes through the middle small hole then is metered by the EGR and goes to the intake manifold via the other small hole and coolant flows through the 3rd (bigger)hole. so the coolant port and the cylnder 4 exhaust port are only spaced apart by the with of that gasket(less than a 1/4")....get what im saying ?

also what brand H/G did you use

Scout1

I used a Fel Pro head gasket set. I am old and that was two years ago LOL. I will look at a bunch of pictures that I took when I get home. I do remember blowing out the bolt holes with my compressor and I did put engine oil on the bolts. I will look at it when I get home. The gasket set had a bunch of gaskets in it and I tried to replace all that were disturbed. I know on a couple of places on the block there is not much gasket between the combustion and water ports. That may be part of a design issue. I believe it is the D17A2.

ezone

This and this.

The finish on the surface of the head after machining is very important too. It should be machined almost glass smooth, never rough like a belt sander hit it.

Scout1

When I got it back from the machine shop it was like new and the mating surface was like you said.

thisguy357

yeah but if u had blown your head gasket i would assume u would notice the loss of power, cuz u would be loosing compression. (mine was a slouch with a bad h/g) But u said it "runs really good". the water passage feeds off the exhaust side of the head(not inside the combustion chamber) so the only way u might notice it is IF it ended up fouling your 02 sensor(coolant leaking into the exhaust when the motor is off). it would not effect the driving much, if at all. Also it wouldn’t be detectable with a compression test or leak down test, but u would still detect carbon in the coolant.(the back pressure in your exhaust manifold would create a high pressure in your cooling system, pushing fluid into the overflow)

Think about it, im talking about a 5-10$ part that should be changed anyway, that only takes 10-20 minutes to change out while the head is on the car.....or $110+ H/G set and hours of work

ive never had a felpro H/G go out that quick not even on my 2000 Bonneville SSEI (supercharged stock) or "the 67" (its a hodgepodge high hp N/A camaro...it runs mid 11's and pops wheelies )

PMI

Quote:The coolant overflow fills up and is not going back into the radiator when it cools down.

No saying you are wrong, but can you please explain?

In my (limited) experience, the coolant would still go back as the pressure levels off. Are you assuming that exhaust gas is now displacing the coolant in the radiator? If so, then this would be easy to diagnose, the radiator would be at positive pressure even when cold, right??

mikey1

agreed.....

so if the compressed air is not coming from the combustion chamber, then tell me another way compressed air can enter the cooling system

thisguy357

Read MY second post

Attachment below shows how close the egr and coolant ports are together

thisguy357

PmI read my first post...after sitting all night I could start the car for a few seconds.NOT long enough to expand liquid..then turn off car and the radiator already had pressure...for the second part of that yes the coolant is SPRAYED all over my plastic intake plenum...oh and my head was within .0015" (father in law is a machinist and he was astonished because my car was "overheating" for 9 months of Texas summer ) I'm thinkin te exhaust bubbles at idle, after warm, are what makes the temp rise because u have hot exhaust gas trapped by your temp sensor...then one u take off the coolant circulates and the sensor cools down..

That's why I think he needs to replace the easy cheap part first

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

when you deleted part of his post, you deleted the "]" - that deactivated the "quote" system - I added the missing "]" and it's right now

You said it yourself You had loss of compression/power because the gasket was really bad
Mine was a small leak at the point i did change it - was loosing coolant slowly but surely

PMI, unsure of the mechanics for the coolant not going back into the radiator. The gases inside not enough vacuum to pull it back? Rad usually have pressure after cooling down (quite a lot of pressure leaking from the engine compression to the lower coolant pressure - typical of these engines for some reason. Also, some slow seeping cooling back - if you leave car for a week without firing the engine, the start is harder, some coolant spills. but if a day only, you won't see the problem. So i guess the radiator still have pressure left after cooling down, thus the coolant does not go back to it.

Edit: jeesus, why the forum automatically puts hyperlinks in the word radiator?!?

Wankenstein

Why guess? Spend $10 for block tester fluid and rent (free at autozone or o'reilly's) a block tester. That's a cheap place to start. If, you want to take it a step further bring it into a shop and have them do a leakdown test. Do a compression test too if you want.

Breeched HG's doesn't always equal compression loss, as Mikey stated.. didn't in mine. Mine had a stripped block hole where one of the head bolts inserts into and it didn't have compression loss. Compression loss usually occurs if there a HG breech between one or more cylinders.

Wankenstein

More than likely the compression will be good and is not a definitive test for a head gasket breech. However, it's cheap and easy to do so might as well. If there is a compression leak then it still needs to be isolated to either: valve seals, piston rings, head gasket.

Bring to local shop and see what they'll charge or make and perform a homemade leakdown tester:

thisguy357

again a failed water passage gasket would give you a false positive during a block test.

the width of the gasket between the egr port and water port is roughly a 1/4 in. but it is a compression gasket making the high point of the gasket only 1/16th of an in wide. (very possible leak) if it failed it would cause the bubbling radiator but would not effect your compression

ezone

Pressurize cooling system @ 15 PSI
Remove EGR valve and look for water entry in the passage?

IDK if it's possible or not, just thinking out loud.

Scout1

The first time I had this issue, I did every test you guys have mentioned. Compression, Leak down, chemical test and all tested good. When I used the method Ezone said to do by pressurizing each cylinder at top dead center, The second cylinder was the one leaking. I have to work today so I don't know when I can get back to it, but I will try that test again. I will try that "water passage" gasket first and pray that is it.

Sorry I stirred up so much arguments but the comments are helpful. I will report back when I find something.

PMI

Any idea why so many engines need a headgasket?

The last car (diff make) I had that had headgasket issues, first overheated which was caused by sludge and poor oil circulation. This in turn was the result of a sub-par crankcase venting component, a $5 one-way valve. End result was first a bad turbo, and later, bad headgasket.

So, more than likely, there will be an underlying cause.

ezone

I've posted on other threads that I firmly believe this engine could have been far more robust if the engineers had specified use of TTY head bolts.
I still think a company could make a tiny fortune if they would make or market TTY head bolts for this application, and all others that spec MLS gaskets with regular bolts.



IMO most of Hondas issues pale in comparison to some other manufacturers' spectacular problems.


95-00 Neon head gaskets, anyone?


Engines that sludge internally as a rule? (most sludge issues could have been avoided with careful choice of oil specifications)

Valve springs breaking?

Cams and lifters eaten alive?

Over 100 years of trying and they STILL haven't figured out how to make a ball joint last?

PMI

LOL, if you figure out any of those things, we will all be standing there in line..., waiting to buy your stock, before it goes public...

TTY == "stretch" bolts? There are none that fit this engine? The head bolts should not be too difficult, but at this point our cars are pretty old, not sure how big a market there would be.

ezone

I was speaking of Big 3 suspensions......30-50k front end rebuilds are just unreal.






TTY = stretch

AFAIK nobody makes TTY for these engines, but the right size may be out there in someone else's peoducts.

PMI

I always felt stretch bolts were iffy for "recreational" mechanics like me, because the torque has to be more accurate, and because it is can vary depending on the cleanliness, and amount of lubrication, of the threads in the block... (but thats just me )

ezone

To the contrary, TTY is far more forgiving IMO.
TTY is all about maintaining a stable clamping force that will remain consistent as the clamped items grow and shrink with thermal cycling. You don't have that with regular bolts.

(picking imaginary specs out of thin air for this) 18 ft-lb is easy to reach as a starting point for all of the fasteners, it serves as a sort of zero point to firmly clamp the items without inducing significant stretch on the fasteners.
Tightening the bolts an additional half turn total each (or whatever degrees necessary to get the bolt to stretch in its linear elastic range) has little to do with rotational force (torque). The thread pitch and angle of rotation dictates the amount of stretch induced in the fastener, and it's controlled by the material hardness and size of the fastener.

PMI

Thanks, I definitely did not know all that!

thisguy357

also tty bolts are able to provide more clamping force than a regular bolt the same length and diameter.

thisguy357

i under stand thats the name of the brand im saying its funny because its a misnomer.

of course gm didnt call anything leakless. the hardest part of owning a gm car is keeping oil and coolant in it lol

but GM did create weatherpack connectors and everyones adopting that

thats why i would like for scout1 to try to change the water passage gasket, im thinking it may blow from increased exhaust manifold pressure. ive seen this issue on another car ive fixed, i just cant for the life of me remember what kind of car it was. but i remember the egr was mounted to a cooling block just like hondas configuration...kind of like the ford trucks that use to use EGR coolers they had the same symptoms... no loss in compression, leakdown test is good, possible white smoke(but not generally) and coolant bubbling from radiator(mostly under load)

ezone

Like a used car salesman who adds the name "Honest" in front of his real name.

Or a tire brand called "Goodride" is anything but. (Yes it's a real tire name.)

"Triangle" is a tire brand too, and it's probably a step above "Goodride" IMO.
Triangle is round in this case, rounder than the Goodride.
Ever hear of a tire brand called Unicorn?


I'll give you that one.

I'd rather see tests and proof before randomly replacing stuff.
Test, don't guess.

ezone

Pressurizing each cylinder to 150-175 PSI should prove or disprove a combustion chamber breach (head gasket).

The results of that test would dictate the next step.

thisguy357

yes i agree, but thats already been mentioned. what im saying is that if a compression and leakdown test test good, i bet the thermostat housing/Waterpassage/egr cooler gasket failed