Elciteeve

The only potential problem would be if you were to use copper anti-seize in a high temp application where the fastener (Plug, whatever else you might be tightening) is mating with aluminum. Simply use the nickel based anti-seize, make sure it doesn't contain copper.

5spdvroom

Well, apparently the previous person (if any) didn't use anti-seize on the spark plugs - it took 50ft*lbs to unstick each one, and then they unscrewed fine from there. But I got them out, replaced them (using anti-seize this time), and didn't break the car. The old ones look nasty. I'm amazed at how hard it was to find the torquing value for them - it's not in the regular manual. Although I found it in the service manual from some sketchy site. (13ft*lbs apparently)

Still waiting for the knock sensor and fuel pump relay to arrive. And I'm still tempted to replace the fuel pump itself, though we'll wait and see.

5spdvroom

Ooh, an interesting little bit I just realized - the car overheated under the previous owner, shortly before I bought it (100K miles). The head gasket was replaced, along with the timing belt, water pump, etc. What does this sort of thing mean for the lifespan of the car? Possible hidden issues vs a major part being new now.

ezone

It means someone took care of a problem and did some maintenance. Would you rather those be ignored?

They Timing belt job is routing maintenance.
Head gasket failure is completely expected sooner or later with that engine IMO.

Workmanship of the jobs though.....


----------------------------------------------------
The car has over 100k on it. It probably needs other stuff you haven't found yet. If not, it will soon enough.

5spdvroom

Well, this is turning into a mess. So I got the fuel pump relay changed just fine. The knock sensor, however...

I jacked up the car, unscrewed the oil filter, found the sensor, and got a socket wrench (12mm bit) around it. Problem is, I spent an hour with all my might, definitely forcing it in the right direction, and couldn't get it to budge. I asked the guys at Autozone for ideas, and they lent me a longer wrench (more torque). I then unscrewed the oil filter (needed to get to the sensor) again, and got some leaking out because the car was warm. Oops, OK, let's put that back and try again when the car's cold. Only, the car was knocking on idle when I drove it again (right after the little oil filter leak incident) - a lot more than before. I got some more oil (5W-20 synthetic), checked the dipstick, and thought I was low - turned out that I misread it. So I got under the car to drain a little out, but that bolt is stuck on hard as hell as well. Who overtightened all the bolts and screws on the car? (Hell, I couldn't get the Phillips screws out of the glovebox hinges either, though it turned out I didn't need to in order to get behind and see the relays. I did start to strip them though. Never had this issue with other equipment...)

End result is my arms are sore, the knock sensor hasn't been changed, and I probably have 5.something quarts of oil in there instead of the usual 3.4 (LX is 3.4, EX is 3.7 apparently, per the manual). Thoughts?

ezone

The service manual I have says to remove the intake manifold in order to replace the knock sensor.

IDK if you can get around doing that or not.


Too much oil is too much....but I see people dump 4.5 in them and get away with it... I would not try 5 quarts though.

5spdvroom

I've been busy as of late and didn't get a chance to respond.

I ended up getting a shop to change the knock sensor (I'm not comfortable removing the intake manifold), and got the extra oil drained out. So that's all good.

The starting behavior is still a tad fishy though - but interestingly enough, this guy ( ) says it's likely the ignition switch, and that Honda fuel pumps almost never fail. Looks like a cheap/easy thing to try. (I've seen the car sit at a low RPM for a second before getting up to idle after I accidentally stalled it and restarted it - which I previously only saw when starting in the parking lot, sometimes warm, sometimes not. Hmmph.) There's still the possibility of the crankshaft sensor, but that's a hell of a lot more expensive.

5spdvroom

Update: Nope, I can jiggle the ignition switch all I want, and the car keeps running.

And I just had it fail to start again. Crank it and the sound slowly ascends a bit, but let go and it's not even trying to fire. Try it again, nope, it's stubbornly cranking but not starting. Same sound as this guy, although mine starts after a few tries: Try it again, and it fires right up like nothing happened. And even in the midst of this, I can hear the fuel pump hum for a seconds as usual.

I was wondering about the crankshaft position sensor, but it's running fine, not stalling while driving either (save for a slight rattle on idle - I suspect that's just a loose bolt though). I can rev it up all I want as usual when it's running.

ezone

In the video I'd SWAG at the PGMFI main relay, but that's a much older car and it's all different.

That isn't a lot to go on.......

If you could figure out what is missing or incorrect WHILE yours won't start that would help..... Spark or fuel.
Or too much fuel could do it too, like a flaky temp sensor.
If you pull the breather cover off and spray something flammable (carb and choke cleaner) into the intake then crank it, will it try to fire?


Immediately prior to cranking and no start: Did the CEL light up when you turn on the key?
You hear the pump run 2 sec when you key it up, but does the pump run again during cranking?

I forgot and didn't read the thread, have you already tried new main relays yet?

2 sets of ground wires on top of the upper hose neck, have you cleaned and tightened those?

5spdvroom

Yeah, I wish the guy in the video had listed his solution. Ughh...

Let's see... I don't recall seeing the CEL light (save for the whole dash lighting up at the usual times). As for the fuel pump, I'm not sure if it's running while cranking - hard to hear over the other noises. That said, it DOES seem to start easier if I let the pump run for ~1 second, and then crank - instead of doing it immediately, or waiting the 2 seconds for it to stop.

I've also noticed that if I stall the car (driver error - only been driving manual for a few months) that it sometimes takes a moment to get up to normal idle when restarting. Although I stall less and less as time goes on and I get better with the clutch, so I don't see this one often.

This issue happened at ~25-30C before (been parked for a few hours), ~10-15C another (parked for half an hour, got to operating temp before), and ~7C today (parked for an hour, got to operating temp before). All outside temperatures, ranging from late summer in CA to fall in OR (in that order).
Ground wires there - no, I haven't tried those. Just cleaning the main battery terminals (which were fine).

I already installed a new fuel pump relay (PGMFI #2). Changed nothing. I did NOT, however, change the main relay. And some of the symptoms listed here (http://honda-tech.com/honda-crx-ef-c.../#post39497417) sound familiar - doesn't stall once started, usually starts after a little waiting, car > 8 years old. And also, since you said you'd SWAG one of these relays for the video, with similar symptoms, hmm...



I really hope it's just the main relay (sounds like it might be) instead of, say, a crankshaft sensor (my other suspicion) - so much cheaper/easier to replace.

ezone

Mentally note to look for it to come on along with the other dozen lights before you crank it. If it doesn't light up normally, that means the PCM isn't completely powered up at that time (main relay #1).

5spdvroom

Hmm... well, now I know why I was having so much trouble finding the relay part - I talked to a Honda dealer, and apparently there's no such thing on this car, unlike the 6 gen Civics (known issue on those). Just a few 50A fuses behind the glovebox. There does appear to be a PCM relay though.

They suggested checking the ignition - ex. the ignition coils. And some of the coils/sparks did look a bit rusty when I changed them a few weeks ago (~102K miles). Should I change all 4 of the coils, some, or is this the wrong thing entirely?

Edit: I also found this: http://www.ericthecarguy.com/no-star...blems/no-spark This guy also says "just replace everything: the distributor cap, ignition rotor, wires (HT leads, depending where you're from), and plugs. These are maintenance items anyway so replacing them really can't hurt". Yes, no, maybe so? Not all of these seem to be in the car's manual's replacement interval, even though they do exist.

ezone

Main relay 1 may be considered to be the PCM relay; it's behind the glove box with the pump relay...And possibly a couple others. No fuses there.

All 4 coils will not go bad at the same time with the same issue. Wrong answer.
Something common to all 4 maybe, but not the coils themselves.
You would need to prove no spark before trying to go that route though.

You don't have cap, rotor, or wires on a 7th gen.

5spdvroom

I had a thought - if the fuel pump check valve is going, can I simply replace that one bit, or do I have to replace the entire fuel pump on this car?

The reason I ask is because the car often has to crank a bit before firing up, particularly cold. But if I prime it, particularly more than once, it fires right up - much more in line with others Hondas I've seen. It's as if the car's losing fuel pressure when off, and that's causing all the issues. Note that it runs fine once started - I revved up to 6K the other day in 2nd gear (redline is just under 7K), several times, and it handled just fine.

Edit: Are OE parts like this a problem? http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/sk...NP9500114.html This one's $90, while the Honda one is $250-300. I know Denso makes some of Honda's OEM parts, not sure about fuel pumps.

ezone

"As if" isn't a diagnosis. This could be easily tested to prove/disprove your guess.

Along the same lines, a simple test light could be attached to the fuel pump power wire to verify the relay is turning it on when you hear the relay click (you can hear the relays click, can't you?).

IF a significant fuel pressure drop proven, then it could be a pump or it could be the pressure regulator, or any of the seals...all inside the tank unit which also contains the filter and pump.

Note on your cranking time....many of those cars do take longer to start when the fuel tank is below a certain point, maybe 1/4 to 1/3 tank.
Same can be expected during cold weather.

I didn't remember if that was previously mentioned or not.

I'll tell you.....In the almost 13 years I have been in this Honda dealership, I can count on ONE hand all of the truly bad Honda fuel pumps I have replaced --- and have several fingers left over.
(General observation here based on my experience, nobody can rule out the unexpected fluke though.)

5spdvroom

Well, I finally got the service records for the car (went to the dealer that had them). As it turns out, the car previously died on the freeway, smoke coming out, overheated, timing belt cover melted. Notes say that the cylinder head and block were likely damaged. The owner then traded it in, a small shop bought it and fixed it, and then sold it to me.

The head gasket, timing belt, water pump, etc were replaced, but still, can I trust this thing? And how likely is it that this is related to the current issue?

ezone

So it overheated and was driven until it quit running on its own.
That means to me head was warped. Was it fixed right?
Does it LOOK like the head is a lot cleaner than the rest of the engine?

Without scanning the rest of the thread...
Have you done a compression test?
Have you checked for coolant entering the cylinders after shutoff?
Is it losing coolant or showing the usual signs of a blown head gasket?

5spdvroom

As I recall, the head looked fairly clean, but so did the rest of the car/under the hood.

I haven't done those tests, but it isn't leaking coolant or oil, and coolant/oil are staying separate as they should be.

The car's at my college apartment right now, and I'm at my parents' house for break, so I can't do any further tests right now unfortunately.

5spdvroom

Update: I asked the shop that sold it to me, and they said the head + head gasket is new, and that they remachined a bunch of stuff. Basically rebuilt the engine. So I think we're in the clear there (to be frank, the car runs fine regardless of temperature, it just has some trouble getting enough fuel to start), though the fuel pump (or pressure regulator?) and the lock actuators still need to be replaced. I'm tempted to add some sound insulation when I have the doors ripped open as well (for the lock actuators) - the road noise at highway speed is a tad annoying compared to, say, a CR-V. Shoot, does anyone know if it's possible to add the tweeters from the EX to these DX/LX (I have the '05 LX) vehicles? I thought the speakers were wired in parallel on there (stock), contrary to the usual audio advice. Not enough load to make a difference or something.

I get the sense that the 2nd owner (I'm the third) didn't drive the car that much, but also didn't maintain it or check the fuel levels. Sounds like it ran out of coolant, overheated, they kept driving it, and they blew the head gasket. Idiots.

Wankenstein

Sign of breached head gasket: Are you losing any coolant in the radiator and gaining coolant in the over-flow tank (reservoir)?
I know concern for a blown head gasket isn't what your initial post is about and it's (as you stated) had a recent head gasket replacement, I just thought I'd mention one of the more common signs of head gasket failure for Civics.

For added safety and convenience when working under you car you might want to invest in a large (2 to 3 ton), low profile hydraulic jack similar to this: http://www.grumpysperformance.com/flr68049_1.jpg I use this in conjuction with jackstands as additional support and back-up. Also, invest in some wheel chocks: http://www.harborfreight.com/solid-r...ock-96479.html

5spdvroom

Nope, the fluids look fine, nothing mixing, etc. The engine appears to be totally fine after the shop worked on it. At this point, I think it's just a fuel related issue - I can figure out how to measure the fuel pressure (not the easiest thing on this car, have to splice in somewhere), pay to have it diagnosed, or spend that money taking a chance and replacing the fuel pump (I think that's the issue, but not entirely sure).

As for jack stands, I've been using the included thing to raise the car, and then sliding these under to actually support it: I forget which version I bought, but knowing me, I probably went overkill and bought the 3 ton one in case I own an SUV in the future (yeah, I know 2560lbs is barely over 1 ton).

Wankenstein

As always try to diagnose/test first before buying parts. If, you do want to try a part you could pull one from a junkyard and then return it if it doesn't work or help the situation.

Those are good quality stands. Sounds like you're saying that you purchased the combination of items check marked below the stands. If that's the case then well done, Sir.
I prefer the long handle (racing) style jack but, that's because I'm an old man and my jacking skills aren't what they used to be...lol

ezone

The pumps are damn reliable IMO.
These are not GM, Ford, or Chryslers' products.

5spdvroom

Well, after trying and failing to replace the fuel pump and filter myself (something broke in the process), I took the car to a shop. They replaced the entire fuel pump assembly (they don't replace parts of it because they break too easily) with a new Delphi (1394), and the car is behaving nicely now. The weather isn't super warm around here, but it's still starting reasonably fast. It's exactly like it wasn't holding fuel pressure before (bad check valve in there?) - now I can start it just fine without running the pump first.

5spdvroom

So, posting after a while off... the occasional crank/no start is STILL not solved. Seems to be happening every 2 weeks now (although I'm driving the car considerably more than before, fwiw).

I noticed something odd though - no CEL, no immobilizer light, BUT... this afternoon, I went to my car (last driven at lunch time, 3-4 hours earlier), put in the key, turned it to on, and the spedometer immediately perked up a few mm and stayed there (i.e. not at 0). Turned the car off, it went down. Turned it on, same thing. Noting that when I'm at a stop light (engine running, car stopped), the spedometer is all the way at 0 as normal. Sure enough, I tried to the start the car and it just cranked and cranked; turned it off, waited a bit, tried again, and then it cranked a bit, lugged the engine some (I heard this and saw it on the tach), and then went up to idle and ran fine - which always happens when it goes weird.

I played with this some more... the spedo usually flinches up a few mm when I turn the car on (not necessarily starting the engine), but immediately comes back down.

Speed sensor? Crankshaft sensor? (Note that the tach and spedo always work fine when the car is running.)

Another thought on the crankshaft... I've had times when I'm like "yeah, the car's running nicely", and other times where I'm like "why the hell does it feel a tad underpowered/easy to lug" - thought that was just user error, but now I'm wondering about that sensor - it would fit some of the symptoms. The timing belt was replaced as well by a small shop before I bought the car, those pieces are right next to each other; is it possible that's related?

ezone

I'm curious to know if a scanner can read data out of the PCM during this event.
That may or may not lead to any useful conclusion, but I'd look for it just to know.

Alternator bolts tight? Alternator well grounded? Block grounded? PCM grounds?

5spdvroom

OK, you're mentioning the PCM... is the immobilizer in this part? Reason I ask is because the immobilizer/green key light did flash when I took the key out, as it's supposed to/always does (even in the midst of the car not cooperating) - meaning the usual "Hey idiot, don't forget your key when you leave" way. ***Not while cranking/on (i.e. rejecting the key).***

About the alternator - the lights and such don't dim any more than usual (or any other Honda/car in general) when this happens, the starter seems to have enough power to crank normally (sounds totally normal), etc. So I dunno.

What's the best way to go about checking grounds? (FWIW, I would've replaced the sensors I mentioned a long time ago just to be sure, if it weren't for the labor cost/difficulty myself with some of them.)

ezone

Main relay not working--randomly--- not supplying power to the PCM?

relays are cheap, may be worth replacing just for kicks.


Part of the immobilizer is in the steering column, and part is in the PCM.

I just said to make sure the alternator mounting bolts are tight, because a poorly grounded alternator can ruin the PCM.

I didn't say anything about lights or cranking. testing? Voltage drop testing under load is probably the best way to actually test..

Making sure the grounds are clean and tight is a start.
Here's a pic of just 2 of them

5spdvroom

Hmm, relays, there's a thought... I changed the fuel pump relay (the blue one) almost a year ago, and that did nothing. But I haven't messed with the brown or black ones under the glovebox - I believe one of those is the main relay? Having a hard time finding information on that.

(As a reminder, this one's a manual. At least for the 8th gens, I think the automatic actually does have an extra relay.)

And testing under load... are you saying (carefully) hold a multimeter to the battery terminals, then have someone start the car?

ezone

I have to check wire colors as the color of the relays doesn't always match what the diagrams say should be in there. It said there should be 2 blue relays LOL

Main relay #1 wire colors (4) should be:
White/black
White/black
Red/yellow
Yellow/black