ezone

Wait a minute.

You aren't going to find low fuel pressure, that doesn't make any sense.
You would have lean codes set while running if fuel pressure was too low.
HIGH pressure might make it easy to flood, but at the same time it should set a rich code while running.

And yes, many of the cars do get a long cranking time when the tank is low. Seems typical LOL

How long did you keep it running?

Did you blast it down the highway to get it all heated up and get the plugs cleaned off?

You can't just get it started then shut it off, it NEEDS to reach full operating temperature and be driven long enough and hard enough to burn out all that excess fuel and get the carbon buildup burned off of the spark plugs....every time it gets driven.

This happens a lot when a car is just run long enough to move it around the driveway, then shut off. Next time someone needs to start it, it floods.


If the plugs are sooted or fouled, it will flood easily when you try to start it cold. All that crap on the plugs gives gasoline a place to collect, and a wet plug cannot fire.

I see 3 possible things here. Either the plugs are still fouled, or it's injecting too much fuel, or it's letting antifreeze seep into cylinder(s) and getting the plugs wet that way.
Wait, maybe contaminated fuel.....Does the fuel smell like Diesel at all?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it's injecting too much fuel when the engine is cold, it's because of something.

Got a decent scanner that lets you read live data? Good! Plug it in.

What does the ECT read on a scanner when the engine is cool? Is it reading an ACCURATE coolant temperature, or is it telling the computer you're in Siberia in the dead of winter?
Does it stay accurate while cranking the engine?

Clue: IAT and ECT sensors should read pretty much equal or at least within a couple degrees of each other after the car has sat overnight.

nola000

So you mean you replaced the OEM hose with another hose?

Im confused. You were worried about applying too much clamp pressure on the metal line? I havent separated the "special" fuel line fittings yet so I dont know what they look like but looking at it from the outside it looks like the plastic side is female and the metal side is male, maybe hose hose barb or oringed.

It sure looks like a rubber hose. Is it steel cored robber or something? Why wouldnt I be able to cut it and install a tee with a couple of hose clamps?

Youre right. Agreed. BUT, however small a coolant leak wouldnt pressure applied over a long enough period of time reveal itself as a small pressure drop? Say I applied 120psi and let it sit for 6 hours. Wouldnt it show some pressure loss no matter how small over that long of a period?

How would cranking the engine in this scenario cause coolant to be pulled into the combustion chamber? My best guess is that if the coolant IS disappearing into the combustion chamber its happening right after shut down while the coolant is still hot and pressurized. I guess I could also do a pressure test on the radiator cap too right? Or would the themostat close and not reveal anything? My understanding of engine cooling systems isnt complete.

I ran the chit out of it. For a good while too. Highway and everything. Started back up each time but the longer I waited between start ups the harder it got.

Just ran outside and tried to start it. No go. Its been shut down now for a few hours.

Only one plug was fouled with carbon. The rest looked brand new. All had gas on them. Not familiar enough with diesel to know if they smell like diesel.

I wish I had a good scanner. All I have is a useless DTC reader/eraser. I do have a ScangaugeII that has some real time readouts. Not sure which ones. I have it on my other vehicle right now but I do know it has Intake Air Temp and Engine Temp. Reads it off the OBD...yep...just checked the Scangauge on my Land Rover Discovery, intake temp was 83F engine temp was 82F just like you said. I guess in the morning Ill hook it up to my civic. What should I look for and would those sensors throw a code? Im thinking fuel pump because Im not getting any codes other than misfire so Im thinking whatever shuts off the fuel supply when you shut the car off is letting fuel seep through into the combustion chambers flooding it out after a few hours. If Im lucky. If Im unlucky(and I usually am) its a blown head gasket. Prolly from the overheating problem I had been having.

Im still interested in testing the fuel pressure. Any ideas on getting a tee in? I think Elciteeve says the rubber line/hose cant be cut and tee'd

ezone

That takes data right from the PCM...Yes?

What's coolant temp read when cold? Is it accurate?
Does it agree with IAT when the engine is cold?

Plastic lines are plastic. The lines with the quick couplers are plastic.

You would release the quick coupler from the metal supply line, slip a reinforced rubber hose over the exposed metal end, clamp it so it can't come off, then take pressure reading from that..

15-16 PSI MAX on cooling systems.
Pressure will drop as the engine cooled off, so periodic pumping may be necessary as the engine cools to keep pressure up.

You would pump it up to that and let it sit overnight, remove the plugs and see if there's fresh liquid sitting in any cylinders in the morning. (start with verifying cylinders are not wet before doing this)
ALSO
Right now you don't know for sure if it's antifreeze or gas(?), so I might just pull the set of injectors out of the manifold so gas cannot drip---to rule that out AND to see if any injectors drip.

nola000

Well like I said, it does on my Land Rover. 82F and 83F. Im pretty sure it basically functions like a scan tool hence the name SCANgauge. Its a mountable scan tool so you can always watch your readings. It doesnt have everything some more advanced scan tools have but its certainly better than mine.

Thats what I was going to do. Thanks for reassuring me. I get nervous separating anything thats old plastic. It usually ends up breaking.

I was talking about pressurizing the combustion chamber with 120.

What about pulling the injectors(Im sure they need a cleaning anyway) and turning it over a bunch and then check the spark plugs for "wetness"(coolant?). Is that what youre trying to say?

ezone

Ah, ok, I misunderstood your intent. Read about how I check for blown head gaskets in these engines in the overheating sticky. I use 150-170 PSI in that test.
Make sure to remove the radiator cap before applying air pressure.

If there's coolant getting into a cylinder, it won't enter during cranking. It got there long before you started cranking.
It will seep in starting at the time the engine was shut off, while there is pressure in the cooling system to 'push' it past a breach in the head gasket.

What DOES happen during cranking is the antifreeze that collected on top of the piston overnight is splashed upward when you start cranking it or when it tries to fire. Once the plug(s) get doused with liquid, spark is suppressed and that cylinder won't fire.


Keep in mind here, these engines usually begin with a head gasket leak so tiny that the only noticeable leakage is from the combustion chamber outward to the cooling system (combustion pressure is far higher than cooling system pressure while the engine is running). After this is ignored or one lets the engine overheat enough to make the breach area larger, coolant can enter the cylinder after shutdown when cooling system pressure is higher than cylinder pressure (atmospheric pressure is in the cylinders while it is not running).



Removing injectors as soon as the engine is shut off just eliminates the possibility of a leaky one dripping into the intake and cylinders overnight while conducting the cooling system testing. (You haven't figured out if the liquid in the cylinders is coolant or gasoline yet. This would keep them completely separated.)

If you are brave, you could just TASTE the liquid in the cylinders..... you would know right away if there is antifreeze in it.

nola000

Couldnt find yours but if youre talking about the test for bubbles in a water bucket from the radiator, then thats the one I read a while back that I was going to try.

Right. Thats what I was trying to say, in far less detail mind you.


Right. This is exactly why I was initially thinking it was a head gasket leak. But I was holding out hope that it was something simpler than that(fuel related).

I might try that in my coffee. The wife keeps getting on me to reduce my sugar intake.

nola000

By the way, your toilet paper is on backwards.

nola000

Just tried to start it for the first time this morning. No go.

Poured a couple gallons of fresh gas in it(low fuel light was on). No go.

About to test the fuel pressure.

nola000

Ok. The fuel pressure test went like this...

1. Hooked up Actron CP7838 fuel pressure tester in engine bay on hard line from fuel tank. NOTE* gauge was not BETWEEN tank and fuel rail/injectors. Tank-fuel line-gauge = deadhead was how it was hooked up.
   
2. With key-on-engine-off pressure reading jumps to 39psi and within one minute drops to 35psi.
   
3. With engine cranking, pressure is steady 42.5psi. Stop cranking and it immediately drops to 39psi and within a minute drops to 36psi and then steady drops from there down to 34psi after about 4 minutes. I didnt let the pressure hold any longer than that.

Check the picture I posted from my Honda service manual. If the pressure is to be taken with the key-on then the fuel pump it out of spec. If pressure is to be taken while cranking but not running then the fuel pump is within spec.

ezone

Bottom line was the fuel pump has to be operating, and preferably operating at full system voltage to get an accurate fuel pressure check.

Pressure is in spec. Move on to something else.

nola000

Ok, but while I have everything out should I do this test again with the gauge BETWEEN the tank and fuel rail/injectors? Would I stand to discover anything on the fuel rail or injectors with those items as part of the pressure reading?

nola000

*UPDATE*

I must have been mistaken about the #1 plug. Its the ONLY plug that stays dry. The other 3 are always wet after cranking under the no start condition. So Im guessing the #1 is firing fine, maybe.

Also, if I pull the spark plugs and use my air compressor to dry out the combustion chambers(which doesnt work very well) and the plugs(which works VERY well) and then lightly pass 220 sandpaper once or twice over the center electrode and the ground electrode, the car hard starts but it will start and then it runs just fine.

Put the ScangaugeII on it...

Engine running - AC on = Intake Air Temperature - 137F, Ignition Advance - fluctuates 6-9, Manifold Air Pressure - fluctuates 4.2-6psi
Engine running - AC off = Intake Air Temperature - 137F, Ignition Advance - fluctuates 6-8, Manifold Air Pressure - fluctuates 4.0-4.3psi

Car shudders when I shut it down.

Elciteeve

My thoughts at this point would be internal coolant leak and / or weak spark. I know you tested the voltage and it was good, but you also said your spark was orange. Which seems indicative of not enough electricity to the plugs. Typically spark plugs should spark blue / white.

Sounds like your timing belt is almost done anyway. Just pull the heads off this weekend. Everyone loves changing timing belts and head gaskets!

nola000

Any idea what else would cause a weak spark besides coils and plugs? Voltage to the coil is voltage to the coil, right? Theres not anything behind the coil that can go bad other than the PCM, right?

Well I did replace the ignition coils so I dont imagine thats the problem and the spark plugs are only 17K miles old so I dont think they are bad. Timing belt is 83,000 miles old. I think the manual calls for 90,000 mile changes on timing belt.

I guess Ill try new plugs and if that dont work Ill bawl uncontrollably, pop my thumb out of my mouth, pull up my panties and yank that head off.

Oh well, little 4 banger on this easy to access Civic cant be as bad for my back, hands and psyche as the head job on my lifted and shoehorned '04 Discovery.

Elciteeve

Yeah that's what doesn't make sense to me. Why would you have a weak spark with sufficient power? A weak spark isn't what you want though either way.

I try to error on the side of replacing parts before the book tells me to, rather than after, so to me 83k miles on a timing belt is almost done... To each their own.

I can't think of many other options, if it were me, and I needed a timing belt change, I would just pull the heads. But that's just me.

ezone

The test you performed was just fine, pressure was within spec.
Move on.

The design of this particular "returnless" fuel system allows me to say that.
IF this system had a pressure regulator on the fuel rail, connected to engine vacuum, that would make the situation a bit different.

Color of a spark is not the way to evaluate spark.. Air gap is the way to test.

You already had the coils producing spark that jumped your 20kV gap in your Thexton Dial-A-Gap tester.....what more do you need?

Common rule of thumb: 10mm air gap = 30kV.
If the spark can jump a 10mm air gap, that means there is at least 30,000 volts available from the coil--- and it's just fine.


I think you should pull one of the plugs when you know it's gonna be wet and taste it. Sweet is coolant.
Spit, don't swallow.


Plugs can be fouled quickly, depending on many factors.
Got pics? Does it burn lots of oil?
Once it runs well again the fouling might burn off during a long run and they may be fine. Time will tell.

If the engine is always running correctly, the precious metal plugs are expected to last 100k easily, and could really outlast the car if you ignored them completely.

..... or 7 years, whichever comes first.
You're long past 7 years if that's an original timing belt..

*chortle*
That sounds like it would be an uncomfortable way to do the job. I hate doing engine work in the Honda Ridgeline and newer Pilots, just because the engine seems like it's so far down in a hole. Taking the front tires off and getting the car down to the ground makes it easier for me (I'm not all that tall)

nola000

Moving on...

I have a hard enough time just getting her to put it in her mouth. I cant be barking directions...oh, wait. What were we talking about?


I can take pics. Burns very little oil. I go 10k between changes and I never have to add any. When it comes time to change its right near the bottom hole on the dipstick which I think means it burns one quart every 10k.

I just ran a can of BG44K right down the throttle body. Half the can straight in while running then shut it off right away. Let it sit for an hour and then did the second half of the can the same way. I just ran the crap out of it after. When I was done I got it to do something its never done in its life...spin the tires!

Not original belt. We bought the car with 70k on it and it has 260k now. Ive changed the belt once. Has about 80K on it.

You and me both. Im only 5'11" of vertical creamy caramel goodness. If I go Gumby too long I get stiff.

nola000

Ok. So the issue is solved, for now.

Dont know what happened here but after I ran that can of BG44K in the throttle body it starts like a champ. Dont understand what it cleaned but it worked. So anybody that tells you that Seafoam/BG44K or any of the other similar products are "snake oil" has never had my problem.

Does anybody know how I can edit the title of this thread so I can mark it "solved"?

ezone

It's only been a day, you might wanna hold off a bit and see if it stays fixed first.

Mad Dog Tannen

Agreed, if it persists you might want to take apart the intake and clean all of the sensors and valves and such. (you could polish/paint the outside easily while it's apart too).

nola000

Yup. Spoke too soon. It started but not without hesitation and stumbling. Again, it runs fine after about a minute or under load but startup was iffy. If I had waited another day it probably wouldnt have started.

If the sensors were dirty wouldnt it send a DTC?

Mad Dog Tannen

Not always, they could be misbehaving and still "within limits". Taking it all apart and cleaning it serves as an inspection as well as it could clean off a dirty sensor or vacuum port or whatever that might just be reading wrong.

Every diagnosis should start with a look and touch inspection. My friends Mustang had a similar issue. He found out 2 of his injectors had cracked and where dumping fuel and causing all sorts of havoc with the computer. But a 2 min visual inspection cured it.

nola000

So I got everything open but this is only my second head job so I dont have enough experience to really know what Im looking at so maybe yall can offer some opinions....


#1 - Does this head gasket look toasted?
(block side, cylinder #1 & #2)

(block side, cylinder #3 & #4)

(head side, cylinder #1 & #2)

(head side, cylinder #3 & #4)



#2 - Im not sure what this is but it looks like soot marks maybe from the headgasket leaking combustion gases into the water jacket. This is on the block side cylinder #2 & #3 on the water jacket(I might have observed the same thing in the same spot on the cylinder column in the water jacket but I dont remember for sure, I cleaned it so its gone now)...



#3 - Coolant in the oil(bad headgasket)? My valve train and cover have NEVER looked like this! Always very clean, never have I ever seen any black sludge in this engine...




#4 - What could be causing this sludge in the intake manifold...

(head side, intake)



#5 - Again, soot in the water passages. Also, you can see some corrosion near the mating surface at the top and top-right-hand corner of the passage. Any ideas?...



#6 - Also, there seems to be oil leaking from the bottom of the water pump. How is this possible? I know its not coming from above. You can see it if you look just to the right of the tensioner...




#7 - Do I need a new exhaust manifold gasket?...



#8 - Anything interesting here?...



#10 - There seems to be little valve cutouts on the intake side of the pistons which, when I search the internet for pictures appears to be on all D17A1s, however, there are also valve cutouts on the exhaust side but only on piston #1 which makes me think they might have made contact. Is this the case? I can take a picture if needed.

Elciteeve

When was your last oil change? I would assume you would have noticed this sludge in the oil at that point. What's causing the sludge? Probably the coolant leaking into the oil. If you drive short periods of time it can make your oil thick and crappy looking too. Or if you're a fan of Lucas products. I know they say they can be used in "any engine" however I have not had good luck with using additives in hondas. (VWs on the other hand seem to love the stuff, as well as larger engines in general.)

Water is more dense than oil, so it's odd you have an oil leak out of your water pump, and not also a coolant leak. What's causing that leak? Well, if you have oil in your coolant (which it seems like you do since oil is leaking out of your water pump) then I would say you have a faulty water pump gasket which is leaking oil. I assume you drained the coolant before starting this procedure. Was the coolant contaminated with oil?

You should always replace any gasket you remove from the exhaust system. I always replace any gasket I remove though. I'm too OCD to reuse a gasket. Especially exhaust gaskets though, IIRC after a component has been used for 5 minutes, it's no longer new, and needs to be replaced if it is removed. Fasteners, gaskets and the like.

I'm curious if the misfires you've been having were leaking that sludgy oil back to the intake (that is to say if you have bad valve seals and the oil from your valve train is leaking to the combustion chamber, then a misfire occurs when the intake valve is open, thus blowing sludge, exhaust etc. through the intake.) What does your air filter look like?

ezone

I do my leakage inspections before teardown so I know exactly which cylinders need to be inspected once it's apart. Um, yeah it looks bad. Sure.

You have a crapload of sludge, and coolant in the oil is not a usual symptom in the early stages of HG failure.
AFTER it's been overheated enough to distort the gasket and warp the head and let coolant into the cylinders or oil return holes it can happen, it is anyones guess as to how much damage occurs and what all mixes.
It's may be the result of some combination of coolant mix, oil breakdown, lack of maintenance, lower quality oil, and overheating. Take your pick LOL.

Water pump.......maybe the oil leak came from above it and ran around the outside of the pump housing to the bottom where you saw and questioned it. Gravity in effect. There's a whole lot of mess below it around the crank gear and the pan.
Or maybe it's sealant someone put on it...I know Aviation Sealer makes a brown stain.

Intake ports: Normal IMO
Carbon buildup in the intake and ports is normal, as is oily residue. EGR and PCV both contribute along with pulse and reversion effects.
Was it determined that coolant was entering the cylinders? Could be from that.
If it's ever had Seafoam/cleaner/snake oil ran through the intake, it could be a result of that too.

That's not soot in the water passage, that's one of the EGR passages in the same housing. Even if the engine has no EGR, the passage is still in the head and it is open to the exhaust so it can collect carbon.. Normal IMO

nola000

About 7,500 miles ago. I have always used Mobil1 5W-20 Synthetic. For the last oil change I used Mobil1 5W-20 Synthetic Extended Performance. Like I said Ive never seen this sludge before. I do the valve lash adjustment on schedule and the valve train is always super clean. Like I said before I did notice some sludge on the dipstick I had never noticed before.

Never short on this car. This vehicle is specifically for my wifes long-distance hwy commute to work 3 times a week 2 hours round trip.

Thats why I was confused about it, otherwise I would have just changed the gasket and not mentioned it at all. Ill be pulling the water pump tomorrow so Ill know more then.

Didnt look like it at all but does that mean that the oil isnt contaminated with coolant? Can one be contaminated and the other not?

Thats would be great if thats what it is since Im having a machine shop go through the head. Air filter looks fine. The throttle plate had some oily sludge crap on it though. Was splattered.

Car is maintained very well. Oil has always been Mobil1 5W-20 Synthetic. Have never let the temperature gauge peg out or even reach the red line but its been very close a few times. I noticed when I had the ScangaugeII on it which shows you actual temperature, that even at normal operating temperature(according to the gauge) the temp was around 220F. Normal operating temp puts the gauge needle just below 1/2 way or about 3/8. When the needle got to around 3/4 of the range the Scangauge was telling me it was around 250F! That means if that thing is pegged out or close to it, then what is it? 280F?! That seems like a lot.

No. Not the smaller passages on the bottom right. The big square one on the left with my finger next to it. The finger with the soot on it I gathered from that square hole passage.

nola000

So do yall think that head gasket was shot based on the pics?

What about question #2? Those soot marks?

Any info on question #10? I couldnt find any pics of the exhaust side of the pistons on a D17A1 opened up.

ezone

Yes.
Oooh I didn't realize that's what you saw.

Sediment? Cooked coolant? Rubber?
Clean it and go on.

Is there any goo in the neck of the radiator?
250+ may be enough to boil the antifreeze and steam erosion could ruin the inner ring of the rad cap area, causing it to not seal and hold pressure correctly. May as well check that.

~225F is the boiling point of 50/50 antifreeze mix---at atmospheric pressure. Raising pressure raises the boiling point, but if the systems ability to hold pressure was compromised.... that's bad.

Does the top radiator hose crackle when you squeeze it? That would be bad.

I dunno. Not sure it's anything to worry about.
Would be nice if you knew which cylinders were leaking.....The more you know, and all that.

If the head turns out to be warped, then you might speculate it's from combustion leakage and a very low liquid level inside the block.
I think the relief cuts are in the intake side (been a while since I've had the head off of one).....but I also think that whatever you found is how it's made --- if they are covered in carbon.

If any valves got bent, the machine shop should find it when they do a leakage test. And you'd probably have fresh clean kiss marks in the piston where it hit if it did make contact (contact usually knocks the carbon off where they hit).
And you'd have to really screw up to do it yourself, like try to spin the crank after the timing belt was removed.


I don't remember if this is from an A1 or A2, but it's a D17 of some sort LOL
Oh wait, it looks like a header so it must be an A2 engine.

nola000

I think those pistons are D17A2(VTEC). Mine isnt and they look different. Heres a picture of MY pistons (D17A1). You can clearly see the exhaust valve "tick" marks and these marks arent on any of the other pistons, only piston #1 which is what made me question it at all since all 4 pistons have the same tick mark on the intake side bit not on the exhaust side.



On a side note, what do yall think of my harmonic balancer? Its got some chipping on the lip that carries the power steering pump belt. Should I replace the balancer or is this chip just cosmetic? Is it going to throw something off?



One more.
Heres a picture of my bottom end. I had to pull the oil pan because it was leaking everywhere. Im already going to pull the oil pump and pickup screen to do the seals and check the pump for spec. Is there anything else I should while Im in here digging around? Should bother trying to clean the sludge in here? It would be a real pain in the *** and its not nearly as bad as the intake runners and cylinder head. I was going to run some cleanup solution through it anyway when I get everything back together. Good or bad?

Elciteeve

Crank looks good IMO. You could do an oil flush though. Fill with cheap oil, run for 10 mins once at operating temperature, then drain. Refill with the oil you normally use. Change the filter after you drain the cheap oil.

Are the valves bent? Are you having the heads looked at by a shop to check for warping? If so, have them check to see if the valves are bent. If your valves are straight I wouldn't worry about the notches in the piston.

Just make sure you time everything correctly when you reassemble.

I would replace the harmonic balancer pulley. That could affect the balance of the engine, add extra stress on the crank, cause improper functioning of the accessories it powers, etc. I've seen crank pulleys so out of balance they shear the woodruff key and splines on the crank and start spinning independently of the crank.