mikehampton

2003 Honda Civic EX coupe /w 4 speed automatic and 198k miles.

I went for a 300 mile drive across Texas last week. I noticed the car was hard to start after a ~30 minute stopover on this trip. Checked the engine compartment to find coolant had been pushed into the coolant reserve tank, some had splashed out onto the engine (blue crusty material). Also found the radiator to be less than full. It took about a pint of distilled water. The engine temp gauge didn't indicate overheating. The oil looks fine. The coolant in the reserve tank is blue, but not perfectly clean (a little black residue) and maybe a pin drop of oil slick on the top layer of liquid.

I thought it might be a major breakdown and took it to a local mechanic on the road. He suspected head gasket failure and performed a chemical test (the one that turns yellow with exhaust gasses in the coolant) by placing the test fluid into the radiator. That turned up negative. Also looked at sparkplugs for steam cleaning; They were all normal. We discovered that the radiator was leaking coolant. We replaced it with a 3rd party part and refilled the coolant system with genuine Honda type 2 coolant. About $330 out the door for an emergency repair on the spot (reasonable fee schedule IMO $60/hour, but inconclusive repair).

Didn't fix the problem, the engine is still pushing coolant into the reserve tank at a rate of about a pint every ~100 miles. When I open the reservoir cap, it releases pressurized gas when warm or cold (i don't recall observing pressure in the past when cold). The gas kind of smells like exhaust, but not certain. The radiator level is below where it should be filled most all the time. I've driven it about 300 miles since the repair. No obvious leaks. No other testing has been done yet.

Head gasket perhaps? I suspect the leaking radiator (original to the car) is a side effect of whatever is causing the coolant to get pushed into the reserve tank. I'm adding type 2 coolant at the rate of about 8oz. to 12oz. most every trip which promptly gets blown into the reserve tank. The situation seems to stabilize as the radiator seems to take the same amount regardless of trip distance.

How serious is this? The car is running normally (aside from the symptom). I'm away from home and would like to address this with my local mechanics.

What are the repair options? The guy that replaced my radiator said a low miles engine swap would be about $1000. I think he was sourcing it from JDM and about 8 hours labor. Furthermore, since I'm already considering a swap, should I also replace the transmission with a refurbished one with a warranty? I still suspect the transmission could start failing. I think that could cost about $3000, but I'm inclined to do it if I can get another 100k out of this car. I like it too much, have kept it in immaculate shape, and timely maintenance.

An alternative is head gasket replacement/engine overhaul. Are these repairs usually successful with these civics or should i go with an engine swap? How much should this procedure cost and what kind of durability is expected afterwards?

I've seen 'compression' tests, leak down tests, and chemical tests are a common diagnostic. Are those worthwhile or just accept the fate of that cooper gasket inside the engine?

In general, I'm very disappointed in this car's durability. It's drive train is falling apart around a perfectly maintained exterior/interior. The car was never driven abusively (thought it is in the 70+MPH state of Texas where the RPM parks around 2.8k). Our 1994 Honda Odyssey van is fairing much better (325k miles with no failures/issues of any kind).

The alternative is to give up, cry over the loss of an old friend, and get a new 2015 Civic EX Coupe for about $19.5k at 0.9% for 36 months (with some accessories, 8year/125k mile American Honda warranty. Tax/title/ect extra). The irony is that they called me with that offer shortly after this coolant issue evolved. A few dealerships are still courting me from my first inquiry from several months ago. I shop so rarely that I have minimal visability of the true cost of a car, probably should buy a report from Fighting Chance or similar. Is that a good offer for Texas? It's about 3k less than MSRP sticker, 4.5k less than 'as accessorized' asking price, and gets the extended warranty added in there. Still eating all that deprecation sounds less palatable compared to an expensive repair if i can get at another 50+k miles out of my 2003 Civic.

mikey1

your head gasket is blown

ezone

your head gasket is blown


The blown head gasket on this engine will usually pass every test that most people can think of.

There's only ONE test that has proven every bad one for me.




It's mentioned somewhere in the first post: https://www.civicforums.com/forums/3...reference.html

mikehampton

Thank you for confirmation. All info seems to point to head gasket.

In response to the general info thead mentioned by ezones: The car never overheated according to the perpetually 'middle of the road' temperature meter on the dashboard. Temperatures are exactly the same as they've been for the last 12 years. Even when I first discovered the issue, the temp gauge was normal. Is it safe to assume the engine didn't overheat or is the temp sensors a liar in these civics? Hopefully the engine doesn't need to be machined.

Is head gasket replacement a well known and reliable repair procedure? How many more miles are typical from repaired engines? I cannot perform the work myself. I'm an electronics guy. I can fix obscure problems on PCBs and keep electronics working beyond prescribed lifespans, but not on my auto-mo-car powered by a tank of burning fossils.

Can I go to any mechanic shop and have them perform the work? How about the dealership? There are no shops locally that claim to specialize in Hondas and not many were willing to perform the work. Most all of them want to swap with a salvaged/used engine.

Should I have the timing belt, water pump, engine seals replaced while i'm down there? The timing belt is due in about 15k miles and was planning on doing that work anyway on schedule.

ezone

The gauge is heavily buffered, the actual temp can swing a large range while the needle stays in the normal position.

If it didn't appear hot on the gauge, chances are good there isn't significant damage.....but almost nobody stares at the gauge the entire time they drive.


They generally can overheat easily once the radiator has displaced enough liquid to compromise heat transfer efficiency, and that depends mostly on quantity lost, loads, and ambient temperature.
In the winter cold, it could lose a lot of liquid without significant overheating, but at the same time the lost coolant greatly affects heater output to the interior of the car.
In summer heat, that pint lost could be enough to make it overheat.
The cooling system is small and has very little reserve capacity (room for error).





Once the cylinder head is removed and measured for warpage, we can have some idea of just how hot it really got.
If the head is warped, it gets machined (if possible).
If it measures flat within specs, it goes right back on with a fresh gasket.

Well known if one deals with these engines regularly.
Should have been obvious by our responses LOL

Replacing the head gasket (if actually proven as the problem) is the correct fix.
The rest of its natural life? Until it wears out? Until something else major happens and damages it? Can't answer this, too many variables. Can't predict the future.

If it's losing coolant, it needs repaired so it doesn't lose coolant. Simple. If you don't, then it just gets worse and worse until you can't keep up and it overheats bad, causing major damage. A head gasket job is not cheap, but letting it go just costs a lot more money in collateral damage.


I can't speak for others, but I have not seen any of my own head gasket jobs fail on their own. I use factory parts and do the best job I can do, as much as the customer approves on the estimate.



Seek out someone qualified, capable, and experienced with this work. No rookies.

Engine replacements are for those that can't be trusted to actually fix the problem, need more profit, or can't figure it out in the first place....... provided your problem is still fixable at that time and hasn't become a "meltdown". Replacement used engine is very likely to have the same blown head gasket yours already has now. If not, then soon. The problem is THAT common.


Absolutely IMO.
Where are you at?

mikehampton

New Orleans, LA for the next two weeks. Having the work (and associated downtime) done near Lafayette, LA is preferable, but not required. Do you have recommendations for a mechanic in that geographic area? I'd prefer to get this resolved sooner rather than later.

The car is still quite drivable, but this could evolve rapidly. I'm keeping a close eye on the fluids and temp gauge. Nothing else abnormal aside from the cooling fluid symptoms.

ezone

I know someone working for H.E.I. but AFAIK that's not open to the public.


Baton Rouge too far?
http://agcoauto.com/
Mr. Altazan is a respected member of a professional auto technician forum I'm a member of.



Local Honda dealer not willing to do a head gasket?
(I know one dealer near me is also pushing engine replacements for this, I figured they didn't have anyone they trusted to do a head gasket job LOL)

mikehampton

Baton Rouge is a logistical black hole. I'll see what I can do. I've heard of agco before. Sounds like they have a good reputation.

Any suggestions in austin, TX or San Antonio?

I'm going to quote the dealerships. I automaticly assumed they would price this service to compel car replacement (also I don't want their sales reps to know the situation).

ezone

Two more esteemed members I quickly recognized, in Austin


Don's Automotive
Don Lewis
http://www.donsautomotive.com/


Machine shop,
Brooks Elliott Cylinder Heads
http://austincylinderhead.com/


It's not priced to compel you to buy another car at all.... it's priced as what the job is worth in parts and labor.
(Think of a dealership as several different businesses under one roof. Service and parts departments don't normally give a rats azz about selling new cars because we don't see a dime of that money. Service departments want your money to stay in the department. Sales doesn't see a dime from service either.)

A head gasket job is not what many consider cheap, it is a big job.
An engine replacement job is also expensive.

A new car is a whole lot more expensive.

The consumer has to make their own decisions about how to spend their money.

If I were planning on getting rid of the car ASAP as a trade-in on a new car, I probably wouldn't fix it at all ---it still drives fine and you won't recoup the money. Fill it up with coolant (make sure it will be full enough to not have problems when you get there), drive it in, make the deal and don't say a word about any problems.
Most of the time (where I work) when the sales manager checks the potential trade-in to put a dollar figure on it they look for cleanliness first, and drive it around the block. Most wouldn't know something is wrong unless it barfed all over their shoes.
(You probably wouldn't believe some of the stuff I've seen people trade in and get away with LOL)

Plus your car has what most new car dealers consider high mileage. It probably would not go on the front lines, and it might go directly to the back of the lot for auction or wholesalers to look at.




JMO, YMMV
HTH

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

I diagnosed the head gasket, but was still in Canada.
6 months later, put all my stuff in the car and drove Quebec to TN 20 hours, full of stuff in the car.
Car did not overheat, but every once in a while, check levels. If reservoir too full, signs of too much spillage, stop, cool engine down and refill. Did not need to.
Refilled in the morning after an overnight hotel. Car got to TN.

If it's not overheating, it could take a while before it gets bad.

A small leak could take a lot of time to cause irreversible damage.

Of course, it could get bad really fast. I took a bet based on what I felt about the car and it worked.

Or I could have been stuck on the side of the road with a car full of my stuff waiting for a tow.

Your choice, really, just wanted to let you know it's not a "will explode suddenly tomorrow" thing most of the time. Most...

mikehampton

Thank you for your comments and shop recommendations. You've given me a lot to consider. I've greatly reduced the trips taken in this car, only about 300 miles since the symptoms began pending a resolution. I might take it to the shop suggested in Baton Rouge. Alternatively, trade it in at a dealership with the strategy you suggested (thank you for your comments; the car drives beautifully with this ugly secret).

The local dealership said this job is typically $1000 to $2000 with a 12k/1year warranty depending upon the damage. Hopefully there is minimal damage, I caught this pretty quickly (within 200 miles of the symptoms). It might be the end of an era.

mikehampton

Update:

Agco couldn't take the car for almost two weeks (that backlogged!). They wouldn't budge. Another reputable mechanic in nola wouldn't take it until a week later.

Ended up taking the car to Superior Honda in Gretna, LA on Tuesday. Told them the symptoms and that I strongly suspected head gasket problems. They initially thought there was a problem with the fan switch 'the fans were kicking on at a higher temperature than specified and suspected boil over'. They later discovered that cylinders 3 and 4 were failing pressure tests and suggested head gasket replacement. They think there is no heat damage to the engine (no machine work?). The work might be done by Saturday. Quoted ~$1700 for this work, timing belt, water pump, and all the gasket seals down there. Here's to exploring the upward slope of the bathtub cost curve. For now, it appears the repair is better than new car payments.

They seem to know what they are doing. Hopefully that 1year/12k warranty has some teeth if things go wrong.

ezone

Sticking a fresh fan switch might be considered "cheap insurance" while doing all the work.

mikehampton

I've been reading the threads about engine overheating and head gasket issues.

I'm starting to see that people are quite bearish on autozone sourced thermostats. I had the radiator and thermostat replaced after discovering the leaky radiator while on the road 2 weeks ago. I'm pretty sure the shade tree mechanic in orange, TX replaced the thermostat with part number 7328-170 http://www.autozone.com/cooling-heat...at/417439_0_0/ HE replaced the leaking radiator with part: B2354 http://www.autozone.com/cooling-heat...or/352688_0_0/

Should I have the honda dealership swap that 3rd party thermostat with a OEM thermostat instead? The dealership service rep hasn't said anything about it (and I told them where the new radiator/thermo came from). The car never showed signs of overheating according to the temp gauge with the new autozone sourced thermostat. Maybe that is the source of the 'out of spec' temps that lead the honda service depo to replace the fan switch.

Also, the dealership is just getting around to doing the head gasket work on my car. I guess their best mechanics were on vacation, maybe they're slammed, or something. Who knows... in general this has been an awful experience.

ezone

Those should not cause this symptom:

================


I would. It surely would be more trustable.

mikehampton

Got the car back last Thursday, the engine is very tight now and the issue appears to be resolved. Turns out they needed to mill the head block. New timing belt (and associated belts, pumps, ect...). Thank you for your advance and guidance. About $2000 for everything.

They forgot to re-attach the braided ground wire that connects from the front of the engine compartment near the hood latch. It's supposed to connect to the engine block on a screw point near the thermostat. Should I ask them to reattach this or is it something I can do myself (i.e. does the screw need to be torque wrenched)? Also, does it matter? The car runs fine, but bad grounding might lead to electrolysis, corrosion. I'm pretty sure the other engine grounding leads are still in place. The screw point is partially obscured by the plastic air handler box.

ezone

This one?

Double check the other one too.



If the dealer isn't far, make them fix it.

If the dealer is far out of your way, just stick a bolt in and call it a day. M6x1.0x about 12mm long, give or take.

mikehampton

yeah, The lead on the right is it. There are currently no grounding leads on that mount point. I'll ask them to fix it.