josephbow6

Background for this issue:

2003 LX 1.7 coupe bought around 2009. I'm fairly sure that it's been in a small wreck to the front right side but can't be absolutely sure. There are no suspension mods but I have 7x17 wheels on her. From day one since I've owned it, I've had alignment problems. There is a slight pull to the right almost all the time and slight bump steer issues. I have replaced the wheels that came on her (some heavy Mile Miglia 1000's) with Enkei PF01's and new rotors and drums (not that that really matters). I've replaced the rear springs with Moog heavy duties and think the front suspension is original (can't remember if I replaced it) but front is fairly level if that matters. I've had multiple alignments done by Firestone, then Sears, then the dealership twice and they can't get it aligned. The dealership even installed camber bolts to attempt to fix it and said later, "Yeah, you might have to replace the front shocks". I'm pretty sure they meant springs but anyway... Tires wear very quickly and if left on the front right too long, they start wearing real funny. Around 40 miles an hour the oddly worn tire will start bouncing up and down real quick. The front right tire normally wears on the inside severely.

I'm sick of buying tires for what could be a decent car so I need y'alls help!

Can y'all list some likely culprits in an approximate order of likelihood that could cause this poor alignment such as knuckles, ball joints...etc?

ezone

Post your current alignment printout please.


Front wheel drive cars naturally wear the front tires much quicker than the rears.
These cars are set up with some negative camber in the spec all the way around too.

josephbow6

Hey, ezone, thanks for posting in.

Yeah, I don't doubt that the fronts wear a lot more but this is unnatural. The inner side almost looks melted from where it wears so much. And it's just the right front. Any suggestions?

ezone

Post your current alignment printout please.

josephbow6

I wish I had it. This process has been going on for a few years now with all the alignments I've tried to get and I've always thrown them away after a while. The last one I had Honda do was probably last year. Sorry!

After that last alignment, the tech told the service gal that he would suggest new front shocks if it kept pulling. I was thinking, 'but if one set of numbers is not in spec, why wouldn't it keep pulling?!'

That front right wheel also get's a flat spot or two on it which causing the bouncing I mentioned.

Could this be a bad bushings?:::
http://honda-tech.com/honda-crx-ef-c...nment-2959680/

Or bent tie rod end, bent ball joint..... Like I said, I'm pretty sure this front right corner took a hit at one point and was 'fixed'. Could have been a hard curb hit to that wheel too. One of the wheels that were on it was actually bent. Walmart told me that after a tire balance (I don't go to Walmart any more for car stuff, BTW.

RIPSAW

Just a thought but once you have tire wear say from hard cornering, lots of times, a pull will develop simple from the tires and it has noting to do with alignment. There is some give in the rubber mounts and such but if it's all tight (but of course flexes) it could be a tire pull. Try rolling a funnel straight..it's impossible. That is what worn tires do.

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

usually, the first thing that gets bent is the control arm, but I would think it would be replaced when it was "fixed".
the next is the tie-rods, but your description sounds like camber, although camber would never "melt" a tire unless it's at very high degree.
next would be the strut... unless it was already changed.
knuckles or ball joints are quite sturdy, not likely.
put car on frame puller on a body shop?

put pics of the tire tread - the way they wear cold indicate what is the problem.

josephbow6

Yeah, I understand the theory and really appreciate the comment and thought. I wish that would explain my circumstance completely but I do not usually corner hard and there is still the fact of the poor alignment on the one wheel.

So, here's my question more clearly and slightly bigger font so that newcomers can find it easier:

If my front right wheel can not be aligned by the dealership's service department, what parts could be the culprit in this issue that could cause a wheel to be too far out of alignment? There's got to be something bent, right?

I'd hate to go get another alignment just so I can get a print out of the numbers.

josephbow6

Thanks for the reply, sdaidoji. I'm not sure if the previous owner would have cared to replace much if he hit a curb real hard. He did leave the slightly bent wheels on after all, and the rest of the car was slightly abused when I got it. I've been trying to remember if I did the front struts but just can't so, maybe they are original. I'll give them a look and see if they are Honda parts. If so, I didn't do it since, at that time, I did not buy Honda parts usually. In the mean time, I'll jack the thing up and inspect as best as I can the tie rods, control arms, and struts for odd bends/cracks.

Are you asking if I've taken the car to a body shop and had them put it on a frame puller? I'm not even sure what that is. ( :

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

the frame puller is to check if the frame is straight and it's where it should be. the sheet metal is made to bend if the shock is too large, so it could have some bends (more likely to happen than the ball joint/knuckle bending.

josephbow6

Good to know! I'll see if there is a shop in my area that can put it up and check it.

ezone

Quote:

can not be aligned by the dealership's service department

You probably have no idea if any of the people that touched your alignment were actually capable of fixing a problem.

The dealer is free to hire any knuckle dragging idiot off the street, stick a uniform on him and call him a tech. You can't tell the difference, we all look the same to you.

Here's a quote on this subject copied from another forum (I have no idea who said it but I love copying things like this):
Almost everyone, except those of us who have worked at dealerships, thinks that they hire, train and retain only the best technicians. This is just more evidence to the contrary. They are no better or worse than independent shops. If the manager and owner hire a bunch of clowns then you end up with a three ring circus. Sounds like Bozo was hard at work...

Enough about that for the moment.


------------------------


The cool thing about modern wheel alignment equipment is that they are designed so that any knuckle dragging idiot can follow the bouncing ball and end up with a halfway decent result.

The bad thing about this is that the knuckle dragging idiot doing the work doesn't actually need to know a damned thing about wheel alignment. No inkling of basic principles, just get all the numbers to read "in the green".

90% of the cars done this way will drive pretty straight.

But what about the other 10%, you ask?
When something doesn't turn out perfect and is questioned.....the knuckle dragger is lost. Even when all the alignment numbers are "in the green".
You know what happens then?
Guessing....and it's usually not an educated guess, either.


At our shop.... after everyone else has tried and failed.....it ends up in my lap.




Go to whomever did the last alignment and see if they have a copy in your file.

If I knew more about what the alignment numbers are, I might be able to tell more about what to look for.
Even better if SAI/IA readings were taken and included on the printout.

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Are any suspension components bad/loose/worn?


Is the steering wheel level when driving in a straight line?
Does it pull when driving straight?
Does it head for a ditch when you let go of the wheel?
Does it pull only during acceleration or braking?



If the wheel leans in at the top, I'd check clearance between the inboard edge of the rim and the strut and compare to the 'good side'. Use my fingers as a rough gauge of the gaps.

If it hit a curb, has the wheel been pushed back? If both front wheels and tires are the same, use your fingers to gauge if one wheel has been pushed back in relation to the wheelwell opening in the fender.



Inboard edge wear could be caused by excessive negative camber, or negative toe, or both.
A wide tire can show wear from these quicker than a skinny tire.

ezone

If you know of a top notch bodyshop that employs a really good frame person, ask them about your suspension problems and/or ask if they know of any shops where they actually know what they are doing on alignments and can figure out a problem.

I know of several bodyshops in my area that have the frame pulling equipment, but not all have anyone employed that is good at it.
Some can do alignments in-house, some send that work to other shops.

josephbow6

I'll check. I'm south of Nashville right now. Not sure of an decent shops but I'll look. I'll also check the tire to strut to tire stuff you mentioned as well as taking a picture of tread this week (maybe tomorrow afternoon).

I was not aware of knuckle draggers at the dealership. You are definitely correct... I really assumed that they hired top notch people. I'll check to see if Crest Honda has my last alignment sheet. Hopefully the will!

ezone

Low paid workers do the majority of the work in most shops.

Very few shops can afford to keep a full staff of top gun techs.


If the shop has me changing oil all day, they are losing a lot of money from column A.
I do an awful lot of the work that nobody else can do, and an awful lot of the stuff nobody else can be trusted with.

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

South Nashville? Look around Smyrna, ask the Bennett automotive guys, they might know good place.

josephbow6

Front shocks and springs seem okay to me. Slight knocking when going over bumps (sounds like front right). I think one or more of the control arm bushings are showing significant age (dealer recommended so I didn't just take their word for it).

The steering wheel is pretty straight when driving straight. It pulls slightly right when driving straight but holding the wheel straight keeps the car straight. It pulls fairly evenly when accelerating or braking. Braking definitely does not make it worse.



I'm not sure about wheel lean yet, I'll try to check that this weekend. I checked the approximate clearance of both wheels with my fingers and took pictures. The front right wheel has about a half inch more clearance at the top than the left. The front right wheel is also a bit further back by around a quarter to a half I'd say (the left is about even left and right).[/QUOTE]



I looked the tires over this afternoon a bit and it seems that both edges the fronts are wearing away but the inner edge of the right front is wearing away more. By the way, I usually run 30-35 pounds of pressure in all tires.


Attached are pictures of front right tread wear, front right tire, and front left tire.

josephbow6

I'll check with them. Thanks!

ezone

These cars eat up the front bushing on the lower control arms, and once it's eaten through it allows the control arm to contact the subframe on bumps.

If there's a chance the lower arm is bent, this could be a good reason to replace it.

The other big chunks to replace would be the strut and/or the knuckle. It's usually a matter of educated guesses when it comes to this when things aren't glaringly obvious. Much of the time there isn't a real good way to see 'bent by a just few millimeters'.

That tire tread looks an awful lot like the Michelins I put on my car. 225-40-18 Michelin Pilot Sport A/S Plus
Mine at 10k miles are starting to wear the inboard edges on all 4. Minor at this point, but it's a little disappointing.
Does the car lean? Was it sitting on flat level ground at the time?

Half a finger width? If the fender hasn't been 'repositioned' by accident damage, that might indicate a possible low caster issue. Hard to say without seeing it firsthand and checking out the actual alignment numbers.

josephbow6

The car doesn't lean as far as I can tell and it was on pretty flat ground. I'll look that lower arm over this weekend hopefully and really check the bushings too. If/when I replace that arm (or both) would you recommend oem or Napa or...? I'm alright spending for Honda parts if you think they are worth it in this instance. Same question for if I replace knuckles and struts. Would you recommend the Honda ones? I only ask because I've never replaced knuckles or control arms before. And yes, those michelins, and the last pair I had, have been disappointing.

patrolcats

Ok. '03 Civic LX 1.7 diagnosed with faulty compliance bushings. Several past issues with alignments, including a cradle shift to bring into alignment. Dealership swore it had been in an accident, but NO I am the original owner. Developed a 'clunking' when going over bumps and the curb up my driveway.

Specc'ed new aftermarket kyb struts, coils, control arms, Energy Suspension Bushings. Replaced aftermarket control arm bushings with E.S. FOUND RIGHT FRONT COMPLIANCE BUSHING SEVERELY CRACKED/BROKEN and the metal section of the bushing 'welded' to the vertical bolt. Ended up sawzalling the bolt out.

Replaced and fastened remaining parts, took into dealership for clutch replacement (10-2014) and post alignment went off without a hitch! No more 'clunk' on speedbumps or inclines; much tighter steering, and the easiest alignment I have had in 8 years.

The coils were still fine, the struts had fluid overspray but no bottoming out symptoms; the control arms APPEARED straight but I didn't laser measure it. The compliance bushing on the RFP side was horrendous. Easy to see this as being the true culprit. Externally, the urethane only looked cracked, but by the way the vertical fastener was welded to the metal sleeve of the bushing, there was no way the compliance bushing could do it's job. The Energy Suspension bushings took a lot of the body roll out of the cars turns. Oh, and I replaced the front sway bar bushings with E.S. as well.

ezone

You can buy a complete lower arm, or you can buy just the bushing(s). Bushing replacement is more work but far cheaper.


I work for a dealership, we use factory parts.....I really don't know what's available in the aftermarket....but I've read stories here about how many of the choices just don't hold up as well as OEM.

OTOH I saw this the other day, thought it looked like it could be a decent solution...It's got a ball pivot inside instead of a rubber bushing.
http://www.fme-cat.com/overlays/part-detail.aspx?brand=MC&PartNumber=K200799&pt=Control %20Arm%20Bushing&lu=2003%20HONDA%20CIVIC&vin=



Don't forget about used parts as an option too. Would be hard to judge if unbent or not though.

Got evidence of body damage? Fender damage? Strut tower damage? Tool marks on the fender bolts? Gaps not even around the hood and fenders? VIN tags on the fenders?

josephbow6

Glad to know that a very similar problem has happened to someone else. I wonder if mine is basically the same issue. I may try replacing control arms first and see how it does and then struts if needed. Then knuckles and stuff as a last result.

Hey, ezone? New OEM control arms come with the bushing, right? It looks like they're included in the schematic anyway. Good ol' Majestic Honda!

ezone

Yes.

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

I went the new control arms - now I can just replace the bushings while they out the car and just slap it in when the time comes