Minntana

Hi everyone,

Lurked here a bunch over the past year, finally registered because I've got a question. I'm wondering if my head gasket is bad.

2004 civic LX (256k miles) was overheating a lot this summer, not into the red, but about 3/4 of the way up the gauge. I was always able to cool it down by turning the heater on. Usually happened when it was really hot out, or after traversing mountain passes. It was consuming a little coolant but doesn't seem to be anymore (I've replaced the radiator cap and fixed the fans).

The oil looks normal, but when you rev the engine with the radiator cap off, coolant flies out. Checked the compression today, and all cylinders registered 165-175. The ignition coil pack?(the things that go over the spark plugs) on #3 was a little rusty, and #2 was rusty, swelled and cracked. The sleeve it slides into was rusty as well. Does this sound like a head gasket issue or something else? I have 4 days off of work coming up and I am overdue for changing my timing belt and water pump, and I'd like to do the head gasket as well if it needs to be changed.

Sorry if this got a little long. What do you all think?

TiggerDX

iTrader: (1)

I can't say one way or the other if it's a head gasket issue, but what I will say is that if you are tearing into the engine and are willing to replace it, then I would replace it. Usually with head gaskets, it's not a matter of IF they will go bad, but WHEN they will go bad.
If it is even suspect, I would replace it. But that is just me.
Preventative maintenance will go a long way to preserving the life of your engine.

mikey1

any time the temp guage goes above the "normal" point is never a good sign, unless your coolant level was very low to begin with, which it never should be unless you have a leak,

from what you are saying right now, its sounding like a bad head gasket, but more info would be needed to verify that,

Minntana

What kind of info? Are there more tests I could do? I'll provide what I can, I want to get this done. What would cause that coil pack to swell and crack?

ezone

https://www.civicforums.com/forums/3...reference.html

Minntana

Thanks for steering me there ezone. Looks like I've got plans for my days off.

ezone

Check the video in the first post there.



If you don't have an air compressor,......

Since you say yours blows coolant out when you rev it, you might just go straight to that step in the video and see what happens.

Minntana

Starting the project today and already hit a snag. Drained the radiator and then I tried to remove the engine block coolant drain plug and cant break it free. Is it absolutely necessary to drain the block?

ezone

What project? Pulling the head off?

Draining the block isn't necessary, but it's desirable. If you can't get it drained, coolant will go everywhere--including inside the crankcase--when you break the seal of the head gasket (remove the bolts and lift the head).

Changing the oil at the end of the job is already part of the program, but knowing it got antifreeze in the oil makes me want to change oil a couple more times on top of that just to make sure all of the antifreeze gets out of there.


Pulling the water pump off will accomplish the same draining of the block too, but its rubber O ring gasket may not seal again if you try to reuse it.

Minntana

Sorry about that. Yep, pulling the head off. I am changing the water pump and the gasket that goes with it anyway so I'll just have the drain pan ready when I remove the pump. Thanks!

mikey1

yes you will have alot of coolant coming out of there when you pull the water pump off.....definitely have a big drain pan underneath and a bunch of rags handy

Minntana

Well, things were going ok until the exhaust manifold. All the bolts on the shield are completely rusted in place. They're rusted so bad that they don't even have a hex shape to get a wrench around. They're just little rusty bumps. The 2 bolts from the manifold to the pipe snapped with little effort. And there is a fastener by the pipe-manifold connection that is also frozen.

Are the intake manifold bolts usually frozen, or just hard to get at? At this point I'm thinking of putting it back together and limping it around until I can afford to get it fixed, which could be months.

Either way, the bolts need to be replaced. Does Napa carry manifold fastener sets usually?

ezone

Exhaust hardware are normally in much worse shape than the rest due to heat and whatnot. If you can, rap on stuck fasteners with a hammer, hopefully you can jar them enough to break loose without breaking off.

In the shop, I go ahead and break off the fasteners, then I can remove the manifold if necessary and drill out the broken stuff on the workbench. Much easier than drilling on the car in most cases. Or if it is only heat shield bolts, maybe you can ignore one and let it rattle LOL.

Also......I only pull the manifold away from the head and let it lay wherever it falls in the engine compartment. I don't touch the pipe under the manifold except for the ones that have a bracket attached to the back of the block, to let the pipe and manifold move forward.


If you have to replace hardware, you either need to know the dimensions and thread pitch, or carry in your examples to match up from the nut and bolt bins.

Minntana

I ended up getting it out. Had to drill out the bolt that held the EM to a bracket on the bottom. Fighting with the fuel rail now. I undid the 2 bolts holding it on. It wiggles, but won't come out. My Chilton manual says to pry it out. The injectors seem frozen in there. I'm worried I might damage it if I do that. How fragile is that rail?

Also, I removed the nuts holding the IM to the support brackets, but the three up by the head are on so tight I can't get them loose. Can I take the IM out with the head and remove it on my work bench?

My car has 256k miles on it, and I'm removing things that have never been out, so I know that's making it difficult.

Any help is appreciated. I think it's awesome you guys give out free advice like this. Much appreciated! I think if I don't have the head ready to come off by the end of the day I'm going to give up and put it back together.

Minntana

Never mind. I'm gonna put it back together. I haven't wrecked anything yet and don't want to risk doing so. It looks as if I'm getting to a point where I can't go back if I go much further (seals needing to be replaced, exposing critical areas where dirt can get in the engine, etc.) Plus I'm getting pretty frustrated. Think I'm just in a bit too much over my head. Thanks for the help thus far!

Redneck_cdn

head can be removed + installed with the intake still on the head. Two of the intake manifold bolt heads where severely rusted and could not be removed in the car and needed the attention of a cut off wheel to be removed/replaced.

Disconnect all the vacuum lines, coolant lines, throttle + cruise linkage, sensor wires and flip the wire harness well out of the way. Three small nuts/bolts secure the manifold from the bottom to a support bracket and can be removed from under the vehicle.

Watch out for the one vacuum line of the drivers side lower right near the cam sensor wiring, there is one line + a small cap that was blocking an unused port on the manifold that I could not see until the head was almost off.

On the Throttle + cruise cables, just unbolt the mounting plate and disconnect the ends from the throttle body. If in doubt, label and take pictures, I found that the sensors lined up with the harness and most if not all connections where unique.

I left the fuel rail + injectors attached to the manifold and just disconnected the fuel line from the end of the rail as I tried to remove the injectors but they did not want to come off willingly and I had no one around to hold my beer so I could go get the "big" hammer plus I did not feel like replacing all the injector O-rings. There is a plastic cap on the fuel rail main feed line that snaps off to expose the quick connect fuel fitting. Had to google on how to disconnect the line but if was easier than removing the full rail.

Before removing the head, check the timing marks on the crank/balancer as well as the timing marks on the camshaft. I was able to slide the timing belt off the top cam sprocket once I released the spring on the tensioner.


Alex

Minntana

Everything went together easy and the car is running okay for now. I was up against the clock so I figured I better call it off. I wasted almost a days work fighting with the exhaust manifold, but the old rusty hardware is cut off now and new stuff is in.

A few thing I learned as a noob:

1.) Yep, redneck, it's easy enough just to unbolt the throttle cable bracket.
2.) Labeling everything saved my butt. I put bolts and brackets in separate baggies, and used tape to label wiring harnesses and hoses. putting it back together was 10 times faster than taking it apart.
3.) I need to research that water pipe on the engine block. I removed 2 bolts, but only put one back in. For the life of me, I couldn't find where I removed the one from the back of the engine. It doesn't leak though, so that's good.

And 4.) If your a newbie, realize there's a lot more to this than appears. In the Haynes and Chilton manuals, everything is clean and rust free. Not so in real life. Also, the different steps in replacing an HG are entire processes in themselves. Like, in my case, "remove the exhaust manifold."

All that said, It's worth a try. Just make sure you have a lot of time, or an extra vehicle. If that injector rail hadn't scared me off, I might have been able to have kept going. After some more research, I might try again in the future.

ezone

I spray 'carb and throttle plate cleaner' on top of the large lower injector seals before prying, this helps lube them and they slide up out of the cast part easier without rolling off the bottom of the fuel injector.
Pry slowly and straight, re-spray, work it up and down gently to get the cleaner worked in around the seals before prying hard.


I know, it's a little late now.

Minntana

Rehashing an old thread. I'm on vacation and tore into it again. This time, I started mid morning and the head was off and at the machine shop before dinner. I'll probably have a few more questions, but here is my first: I was using the tutorial and it said DO NOT unplug the crankshaft position sensor. Well, I got ahead of myself and did. I'm pretty sure I plugged it back in first and then removed it. Is this going to be a problem?

ezone

Not really, but keep this in mind if you do end up having a CKP related code problem.

Minntana

Ok, thanks. Everything is ready for the head to go on, just waiting to get it back from the shop. I have two questions; I'm pretty sure I got the crankshaft seal seated properly, when the guide and timing belt sprocket and the big pulley get tightened down, will that help seat it as well? Also, I just finger tightened the new tensioner in for now, but I can't tell which position it should be tightened down in. In the pictures it looks like it should be tightened with the retainer pin in the 3 o'clock position, but I'm not sure.

Hope I explained that okay.

ezone

No. A properly installed seal would never be able to contact the guide and gear.
If the seal sticks out so far as to make contact with those parts, it's not good and may ruin the seal upon first startup.


I sure hope you got a factory tensioner, not aftermarket. (Pic is from GIS, I have no idea if it is a factory part or not. Don't use it for comparison.)

Please see a real service manual for actual factual installation information, or maybe see the timing belt DIY threads for more info about installation.




Pin it through the round holes with a 3mm pin
Hook the new spring on it
install on the block,
tighten snug (7.0 foot pounds) then loosen the bolt 1/2 turn
install t-belt per serv manual directions
hook the spring on the peg
Spin the crank 2 turns CCW and stop on the TDC mark, double check cam marks
Tighten tensioner bolt to 33 ft/lb
pull the grenade pin

Now throw the rest of your parts pile at it. LOL

HTH

Minntana

Crap. No. It's aftermarket. It was an Aisin kit with a timing belt, water pump, and tensioner. I can't afford another one so I guess I just have to cross my fingers. Hopefully the crank seal is seated right. When I run my finger around it it feels flush, but there was no nice positive snap into place or anything.

Hopefully I'll have a report on Monday. The shop should have the head ready today. I did the tranny fluid, cleaned the injectors, installed the pump and cleaned the mating surface on the block. It's not perfectly shiny, but it's smooth and there's no traces of the old gasket. Also vacuumed and blew out the head bolt holes. The piston tops aren't as clean as I'd like. I got a little carbon off, but they still are pretty brown.

Now, It's my understanding I can return the new head bolts I bought and re-use the old ones? I kept track of which holes they go in. This engine does have 260k miles on it.

ezone

I forgot to reply to this yesterday,....
Seal, flush is correct..... It does not snap or anything, it's only held by the rubber coating.

I only scrape with a single edge razor blade.

Shiny is not necessarily good because that could mean you are taking off a layer of metal to get it there.




ALSO: When you get the head back from the machine shop, the surface (if resurfaced) should be damn smooth...almost glass smooth, same as it was when you pulled it off and same as the deck surface of the block.

Reuse the head bolts. No need to replace this type.
They are all identical, no need to keep track of the holes they came from.

I don't worry about this.
Time for rings while it's easy?


HTH

Minntana

Ok thanks. He had to remove the IM and the Thermostat assembly to machine it, and he took the rocker arm assembly off. Didn't put it back together though. I got a box of bolts back. But it looks good. He took the camshaft gear off, what would the torque be for that bolt? I thought I read 180 ft/lb, but that can't be right can it? Also, is it supposed to be real hard to turn the camshaft after it's been torqued?

Two parts I can't ID: One is a sensor he took off, the other is a plastic piece that says T/B cover back. Sorry, I don't know how to upload pics.

Thanks!

ezone

Oh Lawdy NO, you'll be in a world of hurt if you snap that cam bolt off LOL.



Get yourself a dang shop manual! DON'T get the rocker shafts upside down or backwards, don't break off any of those little bolts (get the specs) , and get the right adjustment specs!
Many public libraries have access to websites like Alldata or Mitchell On Demand.




Cam seal goes in about 1.5-2.0 mm deeper than flush (see pic above)
Rear half of the timing cover goes on before the cam gear (see pic above)
Cam pulley bolt = 27 ft-lb

Since all this stuff was removed, I'm guessing your stray sensor is the cam position sensor.

Crank pulley bolt (19mm socket) gets 148 ft-lb according to my info
Should be easy if there aren't any rocker arms and shafts attached yet. If they are bolted down, it's damn hard to turn because you have a ton of valve spring pressure against the cam lobes.

Make sure you set the cam timing at least close to correct before you set the head on the block.


Load your pics to a pic hosting site (I use imigur) then put the link here...
You can click this icon above the reply text box, and insert the link in the popup box.


HTH

Minntana

That's what I need! Thanks so much ezone. You've been a HUGE help in this process! Hopefully next time I post, it will be to report that it's back together and running good. I do have a Haynes manual I'm using, that's where I thought I saw that high torque value for the cam gear, but I was looking at the wrong thing.

bsmiley

PM me your email and I'll send you a link to the shop manual on google drive. You can download it....

Minntana

Almost done. If you're wondering why it's taking so long, on top of not knowing what I'm doing, we have family in from out of town so I can only work on it a little at a time.

One (hopefully) last hang up. I was putting the injector rail in last night and they seated fine. Then I noticed some left over plastic spacers in my injector rail baggie and the haynes manual suggests that they go on the mounting screws first, then the rail, then the nuts. When I put the spacers on I can't get the injectors to seat far enough. Are those spacer nuts necessary?

ezone

Got a pic?