Limp Mode
07-27-2014
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Limp Mode
Old topic with still no answers. I started this thread to hopefully post a resolution.
Picked up some kids project, big header, 2inch exhaust, head gasket replaced, fuel rails and new coils and a lot of other crap. Was told the alt came loose, looks like the wires were melted by the header and all was fixed, ground wires cleaned. New ECM was programmed by Honda and returned to the kid. Still in Limp mode, immobilizer blinking, check engine flashing no temp guage or tach, runs rough and only up to 3k RPM. So right now the interior dash and console have been removed for wire access and a used ECM was purchased. This will be headed to a local Dealer soon to be programmed. Will update.
One thing no one ever suggested, why has no one ever ran a ground wire from the back of the alt to the block to resolve the grounding problem?
Picked up some kids project, big header, 2inch exhaust, head gasket replaced, fuel rails and new coils and a lot of other crap. Was told the alt came loose, looks like the wires were melted by the header and all was fixed, ground wires cleaned. New ECM was programmed by Honda and returned to the kid. Still in Limp mode, immobilizer blinking, check engine flashing no temp guage or tach, runs rough and only up to 3k RPM. So right now the interior dash and console have been removed for wire access and a used ECM was purchased. This will be headed to a local Dealer soon to be programmed. Will update.
One thing no one ever suggested, why has no one ever ran a ground wire from the back of the alt to the block to resolve the grounding problem?
07-27-2014
#2
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
Re: Limp Mode
One thing no one ever suggested, why has no one ever ran a ground wire from the back of the alt to the block to resolve the grounding problem?
Grounding of the alternator isn't a problem UNTIL someone leaves the alternator bolts loose. Not Hondas fault, not a design flaw.
JMHO
07-27-2014
#3
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Re: Limp Mode
I find the sole ground through the alternator mounting bolts, another sign that the 7th gen was the deepest Honda had ever nickel-and-dimed their engineering.
Any good engineer would've spec'd a separate ground as a redundant failure. Alternators get pulled on, and mount bolts loosen over time. You shouldn't be subjected to buying a new PCM, if the mounting bolts get a bit loose -- will all that current running through it, and a cable ground (like the one on the passenger side) costing pennies... all this talk of failures due to loose bolts would be moot.
I'd like to know if Honda is still doing this on the R- and subsequent engines, or if the K-motors have this rather presumptuous setup, esp as difficult as the bolts are to reach for the owner. :/
Any good engineer would've spec'd a separate ground as a redundant failure. Alternators get pulled on, and mount bolts loosen over time. You shouldn't be subjected to buying a new PCM, if the mounting bolts get a bit loose -- will all that current running through it, and a cable ground (like the one on the passenger side) costing pennies... all this talk of failures due to loose bolts would be moot.
I'd like to know if Honda is still doing this on the R- and subsequent engines, or if the K-motors have this rather presumptuous setup, esp as difficult as the bolts are to reach for the owner. :/
07-27-2014
#5
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
Re: Limp Mode
How many other manufacturers' cars on the road have redundant grounding of their alternators?
Chassis grounding has been working just fine for decades. Maybe a century now.
Engineers don't plan for people to leave the bolts loose, they shouldn't need to.
Alternators get pulled on, and mount bolts loosen over time.
and a cable ground (like the one on the passenger side) costing pennies...
all this talkof failures due to loose bolts would be moot.
What will the failure be when the bolts are left loose? Alternator falls off, falls the F*** off? "Hey, why'z this longazz bolt digging into the body here"?
Why not instead concentrate on the issue of people that leave bolts loose, since that's the real problem here?
(Just to be fair, I have left a couple loose too....but caught it before the car got out of the shop or got far enough to cause damage.)
I'd like to know if Honda is still doing this on the R- and subsequent engines, or if the K-motors have this rather presumptuous setup, esp as difficult as the bolts are to reach for the owner. :/
07-27-2014
#6
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How many other manufacturers' cars on the road have redundant grounding of their alternators?
Engineers don't plan for people to leave the bolts loose, they shouldn't need to.
I've not seen properly torqued fasteners do this, and most alternators can spend the first 100,000+ miles of their life in one spot.
8 cents per vehicle adds up to a whole lot of loot by the time you build 400 million cars.
What will the failure be when the bolts are left loose? Alternator falls off, falls the F*** off? "Hey, why'z this longazz bolt digging into the body here"?
A loose alternator, getting ready to fall the f*** off, will cause some symptoms, like 'what the hell is that noise'... way before it actually falls off. And I'd like to not be stranded in the middle of nowhere with a dead PCM and no way to fix it, and just tighten a bolt (with a properly engineered access to it). For 8 cents. Gimme.
Why not instead concentrate on the issue of people that leave bolts loose, since that's the real problem here?
C'mon, ezone... this is a Honda we're talking about. And Japanese cars have had a long history of being engineered to 'not inconvenience the customer'. It's only in chasing larger and larger sales targets that they've chiseled that away, domestic-style, in order to make more profit.
I mean, we all make mistakes. But when you're swapping as failure-prone a component as an alt, there needs to be some margin if you get it slightly wrong. My old-fashioned Toyota could be serviced with a hammer, almost (not that I tried), and only one major electrical component failure in 220K wih me.
07-27-2014
#7
Re: Limp Mode
If it caused PCM failure when there isn't sufficient contact? (could be dissimilar metals causing add'l corrosion vs. other makes that use this method) then it'd justify four inches of braided cord, two eyelets and two bolts. If Honda can redesign $1000 bumper caps, $300 suspension components and $250 wheel designs in one MY, then it can spec a cord. Or choose not to and adhere to my opinion of the 7th gen non-Si. Just sayin'...
My Paseo had one, through the harness IIRC... but that may've been due to the aluminum alt body and an iron block.
Engineers will respond to a $500+ part failure, if an $0.08 part will prevent it. The ones not beng hamstrung by beancounters, that is...
Then the issue isn't so much with the method of grounding... but the difficulty in securing proper torque on the existing bolts. Still an engineering issue.
So's fixing an ugly front end cap and lifeless suspension on the 9th gens. They managed to do that just fine...
That's a bit dramatic. A loose alternator, getting ready to fall the f*** off, will cause some symptoms, like 'what the hell is that noise'... way before it actually falls off. And I'd like to not be stranded in the middle of nowhere with a dead PCM and no way to fix it, and just tighten a bolt (with a properly engineered access to it). For 8 cents. Gimme.
Because if that was the overarching attitude of engineers... we'd all be driving Italian cars that require more maintenance than Kanye West's ego.
C'mon, ezone... this is a Honda we're talking about. And Japanese cars have had a long history of being engineered to 'not inconvenience the customer'. It's only in chasing larger and larger sales targets that they've chiseled that away, domestic-style, in order to make more profit.
I mean, we all make mistakes. But when you're swapping as failure-prone a component as an alt, there needs to be some margin if you get it slightly wrong. My old-fashioned Toyota could be serviced with a hammer, almost (not that I tried), and only one major electrical component failure in 220K wih me.
My Paseo had one, through the harness IIRC... but that may've been due to the aluminum alt body and an iron block.
Engineers will respond to a $500+ part failure, if an $0.08 part will prevent it. The ones not beng hamstrung by beancounters, that is...
Then the issue isn't so much with the method of grounding... but the difficulty in securing proper torque on the existing bolts. Still an engineering issue.
So's fixing an ugly front end cap and lifeless suspension on the 9th gens. They managed to do that just fine...
That's a bit dramatic.
A loose alternator, getting ready to fall the f*** off, will cause some symptoms, like 'what the hell is that noise'... way before it actually falls off. And I'd like to not be stranded in the middle of nowhere with a dead PCM and no way to fix it, and just tighten a bolt (with a properly engineered access to it). For 8 cents. Gimme.Because if that was the overarching attitude of engineers... we'd all be driving Italian cars that require more maintenance than Kanye West's ego.
C'mon, ezone... this is a Honda we're talking about. And Japanese cars have had a long history of being engineered to 'not inconvenience the customer'. It's only in chasing larger and larger sales targets that they've chiseled that away, domestic-style, in order to make more profit.
I mean, we all make mistakes. But when you're swapping as failure-prone a component as an alt, there needs to be some margin if you get it slightly wrong. My old-fashioned Toyota could be serviced with a hammer, almost (not that I tried), and only one major electrical component failure in 220K wih me.
i know you and ezone are both wise men with experience, and i respect both of your opinions,
but if somebody installs an alternator that does not ground properly because bolts are not done up properly, or "come loose" then they should not be touching the dang part in the first place,
i can't recall a bolt ever "coming loose" that i installed once in my 25+ years "wrenching" on all different types of vehicles, and i rarely ever even use my torque wrench (except on bolts where gaskets are used)
07-27-2014
#8
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
Re: Limp Mode
Then the issue isn't so much with the method of grounding...
but the difficulty in securing proper torque on the existing bolts. Still an engineering issue.
The issue is not in the engineering, it works great as designed and built.
I'm sure there would have been innumerable warranty claims for it if that were true.
The problem is still with the people that don't tighten the bolts properly.
The consequences of improperly tightening (or forgetting to tighten) those particular bolts are rather expensive. Much like forgetting to tighten the lugnuts on a wheel....but with much less possible human casualty.
07-27-2014
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If you have to design an alt mount that has hard-to-reach bolts for a layman, then you 1) design access to it so it's not hard to reach, or 2) you design a redundancy so if it's not able to be tightened, there is a safeguard. Basic. Design. Principle.
Looks like Honda decided to backpedal on its engineering laurels, and assume all owners should be equipped with tools and knowhow as you are. Or give it to a dealer, anytime your alt goes bad. Obviously if that was anywhere near a feasible alternative, you wouldn't be here, helping people wrench on their own Civics.
Just a great company, caught in its first toedips into selling out. Luckily, they seem to have woken up with this new Fit. I'd like to see a strap on that alternator, if they saved thousands of dollars per unit making it in Mexico instead of here. And as a longtime follower of the industry... believe me, it wasn't so they could insist they engineered everything fine the first time.
07-28-2014
#10
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
Re: Limp Mode
People manage to get these alternator bolts loose without a problem, so access doesn't seem to be a factor.
07-28-2014
#11
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Yeap...access doesn't matter. Definitely agreed.
Being able to take something apart and put it back together the right way does matter...period.
A ton of people can take **** apart, but the very few can put it back together correctly.
JMHO
Being able to take something apart and put it back together the right way does matter...period.
A ton of people can take **** apart, but the very few can put it back together correctly.
JMHO
08-07-2014
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What do you torque them to?
08-07-2014
#13
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
Re: Limp Mode
What do you torque them to?
Can't easily get a torque wrench on some of it.
My info says
8mm bolts (would use 12mm wrench size) 17 ft-lb
10mm bolts (would use 14mm wrench size) 33 ft-lb
HTH
08-07-2014
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If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
08-07-2014
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Which bolts are we actually talking about here? Personally I never really thought about how it worked enough to consider that the bolts might be a ground.
Just the top bolt? The adjusting bolt? The bracket mounting bolt too?
Just the top bolt? The adjusting bolt? The bracket mounting bolt too?
08-08-2014
#17
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
Re: Limp Mode
Which bolts are we actually talking about here?
I never really thought about how it worked enough to consider that the bolts might be a ground.
http://www.wisegeek.org/what-is-a-chassis-ground.htm
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