DahrkDaiz

This is for a 2003 Honda Civix LX 1.7 Liter, automatic.

So for several years now my car has leaked oil around the vehicle. It's never been a fast leak, but its seeped all over the front and back of the vehicle it seems.

Fast forward to today, I tried to start the vehicle and it starts, but dies immediately. I try again and it turns and turns and turns and tries to start, a lot, but keeps failing. I could smell a bit of burning, but I kept at it and it finally started. My wife was watching and she said a huge puff of white smoke came from the exhaust (I noticed as it billowed down the road). The car didn't hesitate and ran just fine. I watched the exhaust and notice puffs of white smoke still coming out, but dissipating slowly. I checked the anti freeze and the levels were lower than full, but it took less than a cup to top it off. I tried about 2 or 3 hours later and it started up just fine, no hesitation.

With that said, I would assume at this point that the white smoke and hesitation to start are classic signs of a head gasket it gone bad, coupled with the oil seeping down the front and back of the motor and loss of anti freeze. There's no CEL and I've not experienced any other issues before today. Any advice? Should I just go ahead and get the gasket replace to prevent any permanent damage?

mikey1

from what you describe i would not assume its a bad head gasket,

i think you first need to find the source of the oil leak, and then i would do a compression test on each cylinder,

post back with those results

crxmanpat

iTrader: (1)

Also, how many miles on the car?

Has it ever had a head gasket replaced in the past?

Have you ever opened the hood and found it wet inside, especially near the coolant overflow reservoir?

Do you ever smell coolant while driving?

Do you have to add oil in between oil changes?

If your cooling system is operating correctly, you should not be losing any coolant.

DahrkDaiz

-The car has 195,000 miles on it
-stock gasket
-I've never found it wet under the hood, but I've seen oil puddles on the side of the engine with gunk distributed in front and behind it. I used to assume this was because someone spilled oil during an oil change, but I've cleaned it and the oil sludge returns.
-I've not had to add oil between changes, the oil quality deteriorates at a normal rate (it remains at a golden, amber color up to 8,000 miles generally, combination of short trips and high way driving)

I have smelled anti freeze on occasion, but the smell is not persistent and I've usually chocked the smell to a vehicle nearby and not my own. I am losing anti freeze at a slow rate for sure.

crxmanpat

iTrader: (1)

If you have 195K on the original head gasket, you are definitely running on borrowed time. Most of these go out between 100-150K. I just did mine at 167K, but the problem was probably apparent for the last 20K miles.

At 195K you are due for a lot of maintenance items, like all belts (timing, alternator, power steering), head gasket, water pump, thermostat, etc. You probably have a slowly leaking head gasket, which occassionally pushes coolant out the reservoir cap (there are two small holes at the cap that allow excess pressure, and sometimes coolant, to escape).

If you have this work done, it would also be a good idea to have all the main seals replaced as well.

DahrkDaiz

Thanks for the heads up. The timing belt, water pump and tensioner only have ~24,000 miles on it (replaced it 1.5 years ago). I figured the head gasket was about to go given the duration. I wasn't aware they generally lasted up to 150k, that may be around when the gasket began leaking oil, if that's the true cause.

ezone

I think it was flooded.

nsrhonda89

I tested my coolant for hydrocarbon using a Snap-on Hand-Held 5-Gas Analyzer. It was over 1000 ppm. I then tested the exhaust and it was 0 ppm. I already knew I had a bad head gasket.

ccarbo

Hey, can you rent these at like Advanced Auto or CarQuest??

ezone

In your other thread, you just stated your mechanic already did that test.

kinakoes2

I would really, really like to know what changes Honda spec'd to suppliers in the latest round of 7th gen HG updates (4th one is current, IIRC).

Do the cylinders slowly drift downward in their castings? I know Toyota now makes their newest engines with 'spiky' cylinders, so as to both transfer heat better, and for the castings to stabilize it vertically in the foundry, after the embarrassing failures on the 2AZ-FE engine and others. Or do the D17 heads simply expand too much around the cylinder/head interface, friction-abrading it over time and eventually losing seal? What changes did Honda make to insure this problem didn't happen in 8th gens?

Sheezus... I really need to get an 8th/9th gen... aside from the usual abuse/neglect related issues on any used car... it seems like after '07 they had it nailed down. I do really dislike that tiered dash, though.

ezone

AFAIK, no. So far, I've never measured anything like that when checking the deck for flatness.

IMHO, the simple answer is TTY head bolts.



EDIT: Check it out: http://www.reinz.com/pictures/39-003...S-ND-e-low.pdf

ezone

Did you ever get a response from the head stud company?

kinakoes2

No, just a confirmation that they (ARP) received my question. Being that was over a week ago, I'm not sure they're gonna respond in kind. I'll ping them again tomorrow.

nsrhonda89

I see both Ishino and Nippon make head gasket for the d17. Ishino was the OEM head gasket supplier on other Honda engines.

I upgraded to ARP 208-4301 head studs when I got the head gasket replace. I got it done at 215K. I also changed the fan switch at 190K because it wasn't working.

This is what my cylinder looks like when I remove it.

kinakoes2

^ nsr, how long has it been since replacing the HG/studs? If more than 5 yrs ago, did it fix the HG failure problem?

My interest in the studs is mainly to eliminate any question the coolant jacket leakage problem will come back... my HG right now is beginning to show signs that it's about to require a swap. I may retorque the head bolts to test a theory I have... but if the problem has to do with abraded MLS and not the tension on the bolt... will need to seek studs IF they actually fix the problem.

EDIT: one thing I do see that supports a hunch about the D17 head in particular... is the proximity of the exhaust valves to the edge of the combustion chamber*. This is necessary due to the VTEC mechanism on the intake side splaying the exhaust valves apart... but it also puts the flow of hot exhaust gas right at the edge of the chamber... near the HG interface (right next to a coolant passage). This will cause the casting to expand more in this area than if the D17 head were a more conventional design with exhaust valves closer to center. Compare the valve spacing on a DOHC VTEC Si head of the same vintage, and you'll see what I mean. No HG issues on those motors (AFAIK, though IINM they do use TTY head bolts).


* the shrouding on the exhaust valves in that head is horrid. No wonder they aren't the darling of NA performance with Civics -- no way you could enlarge them for racing... port/polish and maybe some custom chamber work. Honda knew what it was intending -- keep the DOHC motors the modder's choice... but just ran margins too thin on the final D17 design.

nsrhonda89

I got it done a month ago and put on just over 1000 km. Everything is working good.

I'm getting heat in the car again, before it use to cut out when driving.

I can't say for sure, but leaning towards the head gasket. I was told it was leaking from cylinder 1.

Then again my cousin has 2002 civic and he has over 380K on the original head gasket.

nsrhonda89

K20 Head



D16 head

nsrhonda89

D17 head has one less water passage on cylinder 4.

kinakoes2

EDIT: Ahhh -- the D17 head is depending on in-head swirl to cool the #4 exhaust valve area! Although that doesn't explain why failures occur on other cylinders... but if you look at the design of coolant passages through all 3 heads... they are very similar EXCEPT for the D17's lack of one passage. Wonder if the D17A1 and A2 heads have any differences, and if they can be correlated to HG reliability.

--

Notice how much closer the exhaust valve seats are to the edge of the combustion chamber in the D16/17 head vs. the K20 head? Even counting out the shrouding problem, that's still removing that much more metal from conducting heat away from 800-degF exhaust gases. It also puts the whole in-head exhaust path closer to the edge of the chamber, away from the seat. Lots of heat = lots of expansion in aluminum that would otherwise be absorbed and conducted by away (as in the K20 head which has a bit of space in comparison).

Both head's intake sides are very similar in design and proportions... but much more space between the exhaust valves due to VTEC-E, and of course with a DOHC Honda motor, less chamber capacity for more compression (11:1 vs 9.5-9.9:1)

There's also a coolant passage right in that area (which is accepted practice) -- and this may explain why non-diligent owners who let coolant get old or low or both, experience these failures more often -- the smaller amount of metal in that area depends on coolant being there to prevent too much expansion... even then, design is such that it still fails. So neglecting your cooling system is non-negotiable, being that your non-TTY head bolts are getting slightly looser every drive you take. I'd suggest getting a surface-tension-collapsing product like Water Wetter in your coolant, to improve heat transfer once your new HG is installed. Hose swap > HG swap.

nsrhonda89

The water passage looks to be the same for the D17a1 and D17a2 head. I was having the exact problem this guy in this video is having.

kinakoes2

I hope that poster didn't install that head with that surface finish... it should be mirror-smooth due to using an MLS gasket... otherwise it'll fail almost immediately.