Dave88LX

On my 2005 Honda Civic Hybrid, I get the following codes. I don't know if they are all independent, or, somehow related to each other. Hoping someone has some experience with this.

P0139
http://www.obd-codes.com/p0139
Oxygen Sensor Circuit Slow Response (Bank1, Sensor2)

What does that mean?
This involves the rear oxygen sensor on the driver's side. This code indicates the engine air fuel ratio is not being adjusted by the oxygen sensor signal or the ECM as expected to do so, or not adjusted as often as expected to do so once the engine is warmed or under normal engine use.

Symptoms
You will likely not notice any drivability problems, although there may be symptoms.

Causes
A code P0139 may mean that one or more of the following has happened:

• The oxygen sensor is faulty
• The wiring to the sensor is broken / frayed
• There is an exhaust leak
• Possible Solutions

The simplest thing to do is to reset the code and see if it comes back.

If the code comes back, the problem is more than likely the rear driver's side oxygen sensor. You will likely wind up replacing it but you should also consider these possible solutions:

• Check and fix any exhaust leaks
• Check for wiring problems (shorted, frayed wires)
• Check the frequency and amplitude of the oxygen sensor (advanced)
• Check for a deteriorating / contaminated oxygen sensor, replace if necessary
• Check for inlet air leaks
• Check the MAF sensor for proper operation

So, the most likely culprit for this particular code is a new O2 sensor.


However, these I can't get a complete answer on:
P1542
P1130
P1600

ezone

P0139 probably needs a fresh rear O2 sensor. Easy if you use the correct Denso sensor....Major headache if you think other brands can work.

P1542 Climate Control Unit Signal Circuit High Voltage. Clear the code, see if it returns. If it doesn't return, great.

P1130: Troubleshoot the P0139 first.

P1600: IMA system malfunction. You have codes in the IMA (hybrid) system that need pulled and troubleshot. You need a higher level scanner than what you are using now, generic code readers won't touch the IMA stuff.


HTH

Dave88LX

Helps tremendously. This was an Autozone scan, pretty generic.

I'll use the Denso O2 sensor. Do you know what specific part number it is? I see a ton at RockAuto...

I'll look into another scanner for the IMA stuff...if anyone can chime in on a known working model?

ezone

You need to be at a dealer.
Hopefully one that is upstanding.

Have a dealer run your VIN, see if there are any open campaigns, recalls, and warranty extensions still available. The rear O2 sensor may be covered if the car is still within a certain time/mileage (bulletin 11-044, but only applies to certain cars).

There are also updates for IMA systems that may need to be completed (if they have not been done yet).
The Hybrid battery just had the warranty extended on it for an additional year.


IF your car is within the specific time and mileages specified for each issue.
You might call the Honda customer assistance hotline to find out some of this stuff too.

Dave88LX

An upstanding dealer? Well, there goes that idea.

Those are good ideas, I'll try and get that done.

In the meanwhile, Here are the Denso O2 sensors at RockAuto...which one are they talking about?


DENSO Part # 2344613 {#2344365} OE Style Loc. After Secondary Cat; Exc. Calif.; O.E. Quality Replacement Sensor; Downstream
$43.79


DENSO Part # 2349005 {#36531PLE003} OE Style; OE-TYPE OXYGEN SENSOR
Exc. Calif.; DENSO is the O.E. Manufacturer / Air Fuel Ratio Sensor; Upstream Calif.; DENSO is the O.E. Manufacturer / Air Fuel Ratio Sensor; Upstream
$95.79


DENSO Part # 2344224 OE Style
Loc. After Primary Cat; Exc. Calif.; O.E. Quality Replacement Sensor; Downstream
$109.79


DENSO Part # 2344352 OE Style
Calif.; O.E. Quality Replacement Sensor; Downstream
$203.79

ezone

You're kidding, right?
I'm a dealer tech. I use dealer parts and dealer catalogs whenever possible.



You need to know if you want upstream or downstream sensor, and
you need to know if the car is built for KA or KL emissions.

KL is California type emissions. You can use an OE catalog site and enter your VIN to figure out which emissions type your car was built with.
(http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/)
(http://estore.honda.com/)
You can look on the emissions label on the hood too.

The definition of the P0139(?) code told you if it was upstream or downstream.


Try the DENSO website, see if you can look it up there.

Dave88LX

I'm not kidding, I'm just ignorant with these particular cars, and have had multiple bad dealer experiences in the past. I know that not all dealers/techs are like that. No personal offense meant. I don't want to pay $400+ labor for an O2 sensor I can replace myself for a third of the cost and a couple hours of my time.

Thanks for the links. I put in my VIN and this is what I got:

Model: CIVIC HYBRID
Year: 2005
Door / Version: 4DR / MX (HYBRID)
Transmission: C Speed

I don't even see O2 sensors:
http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/...l&inputstate=3

HO2S12...bank 1, sensor 2 is what the code said. That listing has two downstream, one after primary cat; one after secondary cat; which is what was confusing. I haven't looked under the car yet, just been so busy.

Good idea thank you.

ezone

This is why I said to have a dealer run the VIN. Or customer assistance. It COULD have been covered under warranty, but someone needs to figure out if it really would be.


Are you in the US?
PM me your VIN, let me see if I can come up with anything as far as open recalls and such.

Dave88LX

Got you...

Yes I'm in the U.S., PM'ing you my VIN now. Thank you!

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

the O2 sensor is a wide band, so it will be expensive one way or the other, sorry to say...

ezone

We are dealing with 2 rear sensors (Civic hybrid ULEV), not the front A/F sensor.

Rear O2 sensors are wideband? I didn't think so, I don't recall seeing that sort of characteristic in a datalist. I could be wrong too.


More info from the Honda site:
P1130
General Description
If a malfunction that is related to the secondary heated oxygen sensor (HO2S) or the third heated oxygen sensor (HO2S) (deterioration, a faulty heater) is detected, this DTC is stored.
To prevent a difference in response characteristics from causing false DTCs, both the secondary HO2S and the third HO2S must be replaced at the same time.




HTH

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

oh, true, rear one is just to tell if the cat is still meowing

ezone

I don't think you can fool a hybrid near as easy as one can fool a regular setup.
It uses both of these rear sensors for fuel control at times. It MUST control what is happening inside the cats by controlling the fuel going into the cats.
Multiple cats in a row, multiple sensors to monitor all of them.

The engine and computer are nothing more than life support for the catalytic converters. Motivating the car down the road is more of a byproduct of the process. EPA dictates much of this.


More info: http://tsb.deccats.com/TSB-1605-CIVIC-HYBRID.pdf

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

wow! did not know the hybrids could be that tricky

Dave88LX

Well I've been blowing off the Emissions people long enough, I need to revisit this and get it sorted out. Unfortunately I'm home with the three kids today so getting the car to a dealer isn't going to be an option.

ezone, I have a PM from you from a couple years back loaded with info too I'll need to sort through.

Dave88LX

I did call the dealer. Due an airbag recall, but nothing due software-wise for the IMA light.
They want $105 to run diagnostics; $549 for the O2 sensor kit.

Best price I can find on the O2 sensor kit is $346 at Honda Parts Village.

Had someone ask why I can't just throw a pair of universal Auto Zone sensors on it. "Because ezone said not to!"

Dave88LX

Can anyone confirm the two sensors in the Honda kit? I can go Honda kit ($$$), Denso ($$), or NTK ($).

Denso 234-4613 $41 @ RockAuto
wire length: 27.56
after secondary catalytic converter (Tertiary sensor?)

Denso 234-4224 $100.79 @ RockAuto
wire length: 8.66
after primary catalytic converter (Secondary sensor?)


NTK is the OEM option, also at RockAuto:
24429 "after primary" $38.79
24431 "after secondary" $57.79

I'm guessing the best choice is to buy those NTKs? ezone said "buy NTK, and if you can't buy Denso" or something to that effect.

ezone

I have no clue what would be in that LOL


More important is to see what brand the factory put in your car.
I strongly urge people to use the same brand the car came from the factory with.


-------------------------------------------------------

I don't remember now which exact car this set was for, but I took a pic of it for whatever reason.

(I looked up a 05 Hybrid and came up with this number for rear sensors)

You can see the part number, the brand (click on pic to enlarge?), and read the note that was included with the set:







The second pic is where I used a wire wheel to clean off an original sensor so I could read the brand name.


The sensors in this case were NTK.


So.... if yours were NTK I'd say go to the NGK/NTK site and look up the sensors for your exact car, then use those numbers to verify the rockauto part numbers are in fact correct for your application.

http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/part_finder/car_truck_suv/default.asp?mode=nml


I looked them up and came up with the same NTK numbers you have listed

I'd say go for it, and keep your fingers crossed.

HTH

Dave88LX

Haha, it was a good PM! Long and informative. When I saw the $400 sensor kit, I balked and decided to just keep extending out my emissions extension. I've pushed it out three years now...I'm kind of out of time so now I have to address it.

I'm going to order up those NTK and hope for the best. With my luck I'd pull them off my car and they'd be generic aftermarket. LOL

You mentioned a Snap-On tool in your PM, is that required or just helpful?

ezone

I've slept since then (2012), refresh my memory?

There are various special tools for removing an Oxygen sensor, but if you can get a regular wrench on it it takes a 7/8 inch wrench.

If it's hex is recessed or inaccessible with a plain wrench, you will need a special tool, the parts stores might rent you one.

Dave88LX

What? Slept?!?!

TOOL INFORMATION
O2 Sensor Wrench: Snap-on YA8875 or equivalent

I'm just buying one and a thread chaser anyways...in case. Rather have it on hand.

ezone

You can get the same tool far cheaper from sources other than Snap-On.
Autozone has some that will get the job done

Dave88LX

Got them swapped out tonight. Suprisingly easy job. Took maybe an hour to include drinking and moving my kids crap out of the way every 3 minutes.

Disconnected the battery while I did it to hopefully reset the ECU. IMA light went off (for now, probably come right back on tomorrow), but engine light is still on. Hopefully a drive to work and back tomorrow will reset the light.

I have a Bluetooth OBD thing that connects to the Torque app on my phone, but they aren't cooperating to connect for some reason anymore.

ezone

Manually erase the codes.
Then see what codes come back.

Dave88LX

How can I do that?

ezone

Erase the engine light codes?

Scanner
Code reader
OBD2 phone app
parts stores that are open on Sunday



When it comes back on read the new code(s)

Dave88LX

I have a Bluetooth scanner and Torque, but it wasn't working. Tried a different app. Cleared codes, have the following:

P0135 O2 Sensor Heater Circuit Malfunction Bank 1 Sensor 1

Is this the first sensor?


Others:
P1600
P1433

ezone

Yes
It would appear that sometime in the last 3 years since the check engine light first came on, another problem arose?
Needs the IMA battery

Dave88LX

Found this:

P0135 is defined as a problem with the O2 sensor heater circuit. Not the O2 sensor function itself.

OBD-II O2 sensors are 4 wire. 2 wires are the sensor itself which controls the A/F mixture. The other 2 wires are a heater circuit which comes on when the engine is cold to warm up the sensor rapidly. A "cold" O2 sensor cannot monitor A/F mixture which is why this additional circuit is there.

You can check to see if the heater in the O2 sensor has failed fairly quickly. Unplug the sensor from the wiring harness. With an ohm meter measure the resistance across the 2 white wires. It should measure almost a short and most likely under 1 ohm. If you get no reading or high resistance the heater circuit has indeed failed and you need a new O2 sensor. If it reads almost a short the sensor is not at fault and there's a problem in the wiring harness.

Dave88LX

Haha...I see what you did there.

Probably needs a battery. 146K miles. No money for a battery right now. I keep debating if it's worth getting a battery and keeping the car, or getting something else.