7th Gen. Civic - D17A1 Engine Noise. Please, please... I need help.

[FRCornelis]

Hello everyone, I really need help from you guys, without a question, you know way more than me about cars and have experience with Civics. I'll try to make the story short as possible, but I think somehow I need to tell it so you guys can have a better background, please excuse me in advance for the long post and my poor English. I really appreciate very much you spending your valued time reading my problem. Thank you I have a 7th Gen., 2003 Honda Civic LX Sedan (green) Automatic with 80k miles on it. Engine is D17A1 (non-vtec). Car was made in Japan, VIN # starts with JHES... engine and transmission parts are all stock, not even a single mod. I owned this car when it had about 20k miles on it, dealer certified. Since I have this car, I never abused it, raced it, etc... to my best knowledge it had never run with low oil in the engine, always replaced engine oil and filter within 3 to 4k miles and transmission on time and I drive it really easy most all the time. I have a noise coming from the engine block, it's not an exhaust leak, it doesn't sound from the head either, I think it is internal noise. You can hear the noise if you go really slow, so the background noise such as road and tires are not too laud... it's hard to describe but sounds like a (cha-cha-cha...) on top of the normal engine noise, it's not very laud, the "knocking sound" it's more audible when you hit the 2.5 - 3.0k RPMs. You can also hear it by putting the car into DRIVE gear, stepping on the brake pedal and pressing the gas a little bit so you put a some load on the engine eliminating the environment noise. When driving, you can hear it when you accelerate, specially when you put some load on the engine, either by climbing a hill or accelerating fast from zero, where the RPM’s need to go up, right before it shifts to the next gear you hear the (trrrrrrr, trrrr…) when pushing it kind of hard. Now… if you leave it in NEUTRAL and rev it, it won’t be as noticeable, you cannot hear the rattle noise or is very hard to notice, the engine needs to have some load in order to hear it better. The engine does not have any problem revving all the way up, it revs fine in neutral or even when pushing the engine, it will downshift and rev over 5k RPMs without a glitch when driving the car. These symptoms do not go away when the car is warmed up, they remain the same at all times. I know you might be thinking about a Rod Knock, Connecting Rod Bearings, Main Bearings, that is exactly what I was thinking too. But let me tell you that the car has been doing this noise since it had 45-55k miles, may be even earlier than that, I didn’t pay much attention to it, thinking… oh well, it’s a Honda, it must be valves clearances, so it shouldn’t be nothing bad, and since I listen to the stereo kind of laud most all the time, I didn’t really think it could be something serious, the sad thing is, it had bumper to bumper warranty at that time. I would assume that if it were a rod or bearing it wouldn’t last over 30k miles. Other than the noise, the car drives just fine, I do not think I have lack of power, even when we all know that these D17 are not really powerful engines. I took it to my well-known mechanic and he listened to the engine and told me he was sorry for me because I have a bad engine, that a piston is hitting the cylinder walls and that the car is a time-bomb, he recommended to trade it in. I know that something is wrong under my hood but… it was kind of disappointed when he said that without even looking at the car, and I got really confused when I mentioned about a valve adjustment and he told me that in this car, valves are not adjustable?... even I know that valves on Civic are adjustable!, but even knowing that the noise is not from the head, I didn’t expect that statement coming from him. The car, does not consume any oil, does not over heat. I’ve been doing oil changes with its recommended 5-W20 Honda brand from the dealer since I got the car, same thing with the oil and air filter. I also tried switching to Mobil 1 Synthetic oil 5w20 for a few thousand miles, I did three changes with that stuff, in my last oil change I tried Mobil 1 5w30 (over w20) just to see if a ticker oil would help a bit, but nothing. Finally I moved back to the dealer brand 5w20 from Honda is currently in the oil pan. Noise seems to be a little bit quieted down, but no by much, I don’t know if this is because it’s just new fresh oil or just because the car likes conventional oil better than synthetic, but the rattling still there, it’s not tremendously laud and my driving habits are always to keep the car under 3k RPMs where it’s not that audible unless you push it. I must clarify that it did not consumed any noticeable oil with any of the Synthetic and different grades tests I performed, I did not see any external oil leakage either. I still yet to cut open my last used oil filter and check for metal parts in the oil, which I don’t think I will find. Here comes the funny ending… after the frustration I had with my mechanic of all my life, thinking that he did not take the time to actually look at the car I was then referred to a place where they specializes in Honda and Acura, I had a few good reviews of real people I know over ten years saying it is a really good place and honest person with lots of knowledge about Hondas. I went there today, took the mechanic with me for a ride… first he did not noticed anything abnormal, then after a few minutes he finally “found” the noise… well, he told me that this D17 engines are not that great, that they are so, so engines… he says that almost every engine of this kind he worked on had this rattling noise. He told me that it’s definitely internal, coming from the block but also told me that the engine is not “broken” or in its way out. He said that there’s nothing really wrong with the motor and probably it will last another 200k miles, specially if it has been doing this noise for so many miles. He also told me that he wouldn’t invest in swapping the engine for another D17A1 same engine because probably the other engine will start doing the same noise sooner or later and I would wonder why I spent at least 2 thousand bucks in an engine that will eventually do the same. He described the noise as a PINGING… / …PISTON SLAP which he mentioned that is very normal on this engines to have a rattle. Basically I have to just drive the engine, he doesn’t think it’s a rod or bearing, otherwise the engine wouldn’t have hold for all this time, he told me to change the oil between 3 to 4k miles. I asked about installing a different engine such as B18 or other, and he said it’s not worth because I will have to buy another transmission, and adaptation parts and it will not be legal for smog test in California. I know I can get a D17A1 engine with low miles form e-bay, craig list or a salvaged car for “cheap” but…I will be really pissed off if I will end up with the same result, at least, I know how my own motor has been treated and maintained well... I asked if is there something else I can do to do better the engine… he recommended using 10w30 oil, he said that the w20 is BS only for MPG grain that it is not worth, that 10w30 will be better protection, and is what he recommeded to me (over 5w30). He also asked what kind of gas I was using and I reply Chevron, Shell, Mobil… or 76, I will never use Arco, Sam’s Club or Costco gas. I also tried different grades, 87 and 89 with no noticeable changes. I never tried the super 91 because I believe is too much. I never used any oil or gas addictive, I ask him about Engine Restore or Lucas Oil Stabilizer, he said to stay away from Engine Restore, do not put Engine Restore on the engine at all, however Lucas makes good stuff but he is not sure if that will take care of my noise. He also told me to stay away from Penzoil. And also he will try to do a valve adjustment (since I never really did one) and try to adjust them kind of in the tightest tolerance that will probably help reducing the noise I have a bit. THANK YOU FOR READING… now here’s my pile of questions: Am I underestimating the knowledge of my mechanics by saying they did not mention anything about dropping the oil pan and take a look at the rod connecting bearings?. Can a good mechanic just by listening to the engine get rid of the other possibilities. I know that if I had a bad rod, changing the bearings under the car won’t do any good, because the crank should be bad too, but … can he eliminate all those possibilities just by the fact that the car still holding for those thousands miles without engine seizure? Is the D17A1 a THAT BAD engine…. I mean, as I commute family car, I do not expect to race it or being super fast, I bought this car for Honda reliability (???) and economy on gas, not because it will give me lots of HP, to me that is not an issue. Anybody of you have the same engine, is it really that normal on this engine the rattling… if the mechanic says that it will last another 200k miles, that will make almost 300k in total and I consider that more than enough for an engine… MORE QUESTIONS: Is it something that you recommend?, should I look for more opinions of different shops?. I am also approaching to the timing belt (with water pump, seals combo) replacement but if the engine is going out I will not invest in that either. Should I forget about and pretend that nothing is really wrong and do the timing belt thing? I really don’t want a new car payment yet, but I’d like to have an ok-normal-descent car to drive to work every day too, by fixing this one or at least making the noise fade a bit. Rebuilding the same engine with “better” internal parts I guess it will be way too expensive option. And I will hate if after swapping the engine with another D17A1 with low miles it will end up to behave the same way – as normal to Honda-thing – even if it’s only 750 bucks!. I never changed the spark plugs in the car, or the accessories driving belts yet. I also know about the existence of knock and oxygen sensors… I don’t know if that has anything to do with the rattling noise… Could it be an accessory such as the power steering pump or alternator?. One of the things I tried my own is listening with a mechanic stethoscope, when I rev the engine from the bay I notice that the power steering pump (using the stethoscope) it does a rattling noise. How ever I can only hear it with the stethoscope and may be the internal noise is normal for that pump, but the sound is “knocking” noise is very laud when listening to the power steering pump with the stethoscope. But I think a mechanic would figured that out if that is the real case. Don't you think? Nobody mentioned anything about if the timing on the engine is right or not as an option to check…. I have no idea how to use a light-gun, but… aren’t those options to put into consideration too? If the engine is really bad… or if it’s a bad piston slap that I have to live with… is anything I can do to help that noise?. I will try Castrol Edge 10-W30 Fully Synthetic now, maybe with Lucas Oil Stabilizer. Should I be running higher octane gas such as 89 or 91, will it do any good to the engine? Manual says to use at least 87.. but I wonder anyways... Is any addictive, engine and / or fuel treatment that you guys recommend?. Anything at all? Since as of right now I have two opposite verdicts. A). Bad engine, get rid of the car, no one knows when is going to blow up but it’s a time-bomb. (from my well-know general mechanic) …and B). It’s normal for this Honda D17A1 engine, live with it, don’t invest in another engine because it will sooner or later do the same thing. The engine is working properly. (from the recommended Honda specialist) OK.. I’m done Sorry once again… Any reply, recommendation, shared experience, etc, etc… are more than welcome. I tried to cover everything I could, however if is there something else you need to know, please let me know. Because as of right now I’m lost with this car… and if the engine is in its way out I think is a shame for HONDA… since it’s a HONDA!!! I would expected better quality, specially how I babied this car… may be I should have gotten that Corolla with a bit more miles they were trying to sell when I got the Civic at the dealership who knows!. THANKS GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, Very, very much. PLEASE HELP !. FRCornelis.-

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[gearbox]

well it was too long to read, but i think what you describe is normal engine noises. if the car is driving fine like you remember, then keep driving until something actually happens. theres no sense spending money if everything is working, noise or not. as for additives, the best and only ones i recommend are lc20 for oil and fp-plus for gas from lubecontrol.com. been using em for 4 yrs every day and the car runs better than new.

even if something crazy happens and you need a whole new engine, they are usually only $500 on ebay.

[FRCornelis]

Originally Posted by gearbox

well it was too long to read, but i think what you describe is normal engine noises. if the car is driving fine like you remember, then keep driving until something actually happens. theres no sense spending money if everything is working, noise or not. as for additives, the best and only ones i recommend are lc20 for oil and fp-plus for gas from lubecontrol.com. been using em for 4 yrs every day and the car runs better than new.

even if something crazy happens and you need a whole new engine, they are usually only $500 on ebay.

That's right... long post I know. Thank you very much for reading it. Well yes, I agree with you, If it's not broken, don't fix it... and eventually if something really goes worng I can always get the same engine for not too much many anyways... coming from you I feel much more confidence with the statment. Thanks!.

Sorry for the ignorance, but.... LC20 ?? what does that mean? Is it Lucas 20 something?... also do you think Full Synthetic 10w30 is right move?.
When pouring the addictive on the oil... since my oil is at FULL LEVEL, I must remove a little bit of oil to make room for the addictive? or putting it on top won't harm anything even if I pass the MAX mark on the dip stick???
About gas addictive for the gas tank... any recommendation if any?. THANKS!!!!.

FRC.-

[FRCornelis]

Originally Posted by gearbox

well it was too long to read, but i think what you describe is normal engine noises. if the car is driving fine like you remember, then keep driving until something actually happens. theres no sense spending money if everything is working, noise or not. as for additives, the best and only ones i recommend are lc20 for oil and fp-plus for gas from lubecontrol.com. been using em for 4 yrs every day and the car runs better than new.

even if something crazy happens and you need a whole new engine, they are usually only $500 on ebay.

EDIT: Sorry about the gas addictive question, please ignore that part.... I bypassed reading too fast.... (english issue for me)... thanks!!!

[gearbox]

check lubecontrol.com for both additives. they are the best. lc20 goes in the oil, when you first put it in after oil change, its 1oz per qt of oil. so if the engine holds 3 qts, add 3oz of lc20. be sure to buy the measuring bottles for easy use. then every 1k miles, you add another 1oz of the lc20 and keep doing it til the next oil change. do not overfill the crankcase. when you change the oil, its easier to mix the lc20 into an oil bottle and then pour it in so you are not above the max line. its very bad to have too much oil. for fp-plus gas additive, you just add 1oz for every 10 gallons of gas when you fill up.

i dont really believe in synthetics, and surely you should not be running any oil heavier than 5w30 in a civic. that could be causing issues already, because its too thick to move thru the motor properly.

[gearbox]

i would suggest not using any lucas products and switch back to 5w30 as soon as possible. and get the valves adjusted by someone who knows how to do it properly.

[FRCornelis]

Originally Posted by gearbox

i would suggest not using any lucas products and switch back to 5w30 as soon as possible. and get the valves adjusted by someone who knows how to do it properly.

all right then. I will be back with 5w30 oil Conventional since you don't recommend synthetics along with Lube Control products for engine and gas as you described. Since I am not be using the w20 anymore, the one I always get at the dealership... which brand name should I go? What do you use for conventional oil since you don't believe in synth. oil. Should I go to the dealer anyway and ask for thier w30 oil brand?.

I will have my valves adjusted as soon as possible, It's not going to be done by me, of course. I was quoted 85 bucks for the whole thing... the only thing is I have to leave the car overnight because he want the car to be as cold as it can be to perform the valve job. Thank you very much Gearbox, for all your imputs and valued help.

FRC.-

[gearbox]

valvoline is great, i actually use the maxlife which is very good oil for higher mileage engines. its maybe 20% synthetic (moly) and well worth the money. you can use the dealer oil if you like, its just rebadged mobil1 conventional. and stick with 5w30 for sure. the 20 weight is too thin, esp in the summer heat. you will prolly be okay with 5w20 in the winter or places where it never gets above 75F. yeah valve job must be done with engine cold or you could have big issues.

[FRCornelis]

Originally Posted by gearbox

valvoline is great, i actually use the maxlife which is very good oil for higher mileage engines. its maybe 20% synthetic (moly) and well worth the money. you can use the dealer oil if you like, its just rebadged mobil1 conventional. and stick with 5w30 for sure. the 20 weight is too thin, esp in the summer heat. you will prolly be okay with 5w20 in the winter or places where it never gets above 75F. yeah valve job must be done with engine cold or you could have big issues.

Great, I will use what you recommend 5-W30 Valvoline Maxlife, even when the mech. told me to use 10-w30, he also agreed with you when told me that he uses conventional oil over sync. even for his racing car I will go with 5-30 as you recommend + both LC products which I already ordered.. I hope they don't expire because I will take a while to empty the big jugs I ordered. Also...for gas it says that 1oz per 10 gallons of gas, I am confused here... sometimes I put over 12 gallos in my tank at once... should I put just 1 oz, or 2?. because the extra 2 gallons? I would have to see what to do... and I hope that adding 1oz per 1k miles on the engine won't overfill since it's very little amount. But the LC seems to be really good for a lot of people I've been reading. Last but not least.... should I stick with regular 87 or move to a higher octane gas... money is not an issue... also do you stick with the blue honda OEM oil filter????. What is the BEST oil filter to use for these Civics?
thanks, many thanks again,.... but it's your fault for having way too much knowledge, thanks again Gearbox.... I will be doing all this mant in my car since I have 10 days left of vacations and your helped a lot!.

BTW I love the led conversion you did in your dash.

Regards,
FRC.-

[gearbox]

i also have the 1 gallon jugs, its much cheaper and they should last for a long time. just keep the cap on. i think im on my 3rd or 4th jug and usually takes a year to use up, sometimes longer. for the fp-plus, it wont hurt if you add extra, if youre normally filling 12 gallons, you can use a bit more than 1oz, 2 is prolly too much. it wont hurt, but youre just wasting money. for the lc20, every 1k miles most of it burns off so you should not be overfilling the oil level. just dont overfill the first oil change and you should be fine. for the filter, i always use K&N which is one of the best oil filters you can buy.

[FRCornelis]

Originally Posted by gearbox

i also have the 1 gallon jugs, its much cheaper and they should last for a long time. just keep the cap on. i think im on my 3rd or 4th jug and usually takes a year to use up, sometimes longer. for the fp-plus, it wont hurt if you add extra, if youre normally filling 12 gallons, you can use a bit more than 1oz, 2 is prolly too much. it wont hurt, but youre just wasting money. for the lc20, every 1k miles most of it burns off so you should not be overfilling the oil level. just dont overfill the first oil change and you should be fine. for the filter, i always use K&N which is one of the best oil filters you can buy.

All right then.. all set... btw Gearbox, I got all the stuff I need to put the new oil, I'm only waiting for the LCD products to arrive to do it... I was reading on the back of the Valvoline Maxlife 5-W30 the red bottle, and noticed something... on the API label, I no longer see the 'energy conservation' feature... I really don't mind sacrificing a bit of MPG wihich I probably not even notice, since I never keep track of bit, however, I remember for an old car.. I remember it was an Oldsmobile Cutlass, on the manual for the oil spec, it tells you to make sure the oil is API energy conservation, otherwise damage might ocurre... However, on our hondas, don't even specify anything at all, all it tells you is : USE HONDA 5w20 and PIRIOD!. I'm sure it's nothing bad with this Valvoline without energy conservation since you have been using it for years but... have you noticed it yet??? any comments?

Many thanks and have a nice weekend,
FRC.-

[pjb3]

It sounds like both mechanics have diagnosed the noise as piston slap and I would tend to agree. If it really is piston slap it should not significantly affect the life of your engine but there is very little you can do to stop it. Piston slap can be caused by various things such as design of the piston and location of the rings, design of the rings themselves, and a combination of clearances and tolerances. I don't believe that piston or ring design is a factor for piston slap in Civics so I would guess tolerances. When engines are manufactured there is a range if acceptable fit for the parts (tolerances). If you get a block with the maximum acceptable bore and the pistons are minimum acceptable diameter you will have the maximum acceptable tolerances which provides more room for slap so it is more pronounced. Piston slap will sometimes be worse when the engine is cold since as the pistons heat up they expand and fit better.
I have heard some people claim that a heavier oil will decrease the problem but I have never tried it so I can't verify if that is correct. My guess is that nothing that you do with the oil will have much affect. In an engine that has been neglected and has deposits or sludge blocked oil passages, then what you are doing would help, but if you have changed the oil between 3 and 4k miles there should not be much to clean out. I could be wrong so if the change in oil and LC helps I would certainly like to hear.
As far as using premium grades of fuel I would not recommend it. The higher octane rating of premium actually cause the fuel to burn slower to prevent detonation in high compression engines. If the engine can not adjust the timing to take advantage of the fuel you will get slightly worse gas mileage, although probably not noticeable (but the cost difference is noticable).

[gearbox]

as for the "energy conserving" oil, all that means is it saves 0.1% on gas mileage. usually only the thin oils like 5w20 and 0w20 have this rating. its meaningless and in fact the thinner oils will cause more engine damage because they cannot stand up to heat as well before breaking down. and fyi, the 5w30 will break down to a lower viscosity anyway after some driving.

[FRCornelis]

Thank you! pjb3, I appreciate your time. I will agree with you too, it should be piston slap. I was going to swap or rebuild the engine dropping a few $$$$, but Gearbox is right, there is no point of spending that amount of money if the engine still run normal, besides the noise which I’m kind of certain it has been there for a long time, probably around 35k miles. I would assume that if it is a rod, connector bearing or crankshaft hitting something, I would have a sort of other problems too. I’m not sure if moving to Valvoline Maxlife 5w30 –high millage version- (over Mobil 1 w20 synthetic) will cure 100% the piston slap… It might help, but the main reason I’m switching is because w20 it is too thin… I don’t believe in that crap about tolerance inside the engine will not accept w30, I have a remote start device, I always warm the car at least 5 to 8 minutes from the remote every morning anyway – I wouldn’t put w40 either, but 5w30 should be better I guess, if there is a little of MPG decrease I’m sure I won’t be able to tell and I am sure the engine will be running cooler and I have the feeling it will be more protected… since I will be continuing doing oil changes every 3 to 4k I think that using Synthetic is not necessary… the only reason I switch to mobil 1 over the Honda brand is to see if that helps with the piston slap noise which did not, but… So I will quit using Synthetic… I believe that even in the same grade Synthetic oil is a hair thinner than the conventional, comparing it to another W20 that is not Synthetic.

I have also tried for my last full tank of gas using the highest 93, but still did not see any change, So I will be back to normal 87… with LubeControl products - again, only because I think it will help the car in general, not because I believe that will cure the piston slap 100%... If I don’t have any piston slap, I would use Valvoline 5w30 Maxlife + LC anyways, because Gearbox and some other users recommend and they got good results. I will let you guys know if that improves the noise problem.

I can honestly say that I never neglected the car, I’m very careful with them, however I do not have any knowledge of what the previous owner did to the car, since I got it with 20k miles on it.

Do you know how to cut open an used oil filter? I mean, is there any tip or recommendation? I have no idea how to do it and I’d like to open my last used oil filter but I do not know how to cut it (shame on me but I would like to check the inside of the filter if I can manage how to open the thing.

Some other guy told me … if I switched to full synthetic once…. It is not a good idea coming back to conventional oil… even if Valvoline Maxlife (high millage) – the red bottle is a synthetic bled anyways… he insisted in using the Valvoline Full Synthetic or one of the other blue bottles that are fully synth. W30 I don’t want to but I don’t want problem either because of my switch back to conventional over synth… anyways..

I agree with you… I don’t think is a bad ring or something.. It would be the tolerances that you explain…. The maximum and the minimum combined that leads to a greater clearance (still under spec.) but… that could be why the piston slap.

And last…. Everybody knows that overfilling the crank is bad… well. I never overfilled way too much, but… I might go a little over the max line on the dip stick… not to much… maybe a quarter of an inch…. You know… the D17A1 takes 3.5 (aprox) of oil quarters… I usually pour (almost 4) quarts… but again…will it be considered too much to cause a problem….?

THANKS AGAIN!!
FRC.-

[FRCornelis]

Originally Posted by gearbox

as for the "energy conserving" oil, all that means is it saves 0.1% on gas mileage. usually only the thin oils like 5w20 and 0w20 have this rating. its meaningless and in fact the thinner oils will cause more engine damage because they cannot stand up to heat as well before breaking down. and fyi, the 5w30 will break down to a lower viscosity anyway after some driving.

Thanks Gearbox,
even when you don't believe in Synthetics, do you think that it will be any benefit using the Fully Synth. version (the other red bottle maxlife)... or the Durabland?
or using the blue one 100% synth. (always sticking with Valvoline)... if money is not an issue....

THX,
FRC.