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I sent out an e-mail to RC Engineering, but I haven't received a reply yet. I think the T3/4 is somewhat overzealous. The biggest I would go with would be the T25/28 hybrid. That will leave you plenty of room for upgrading your engine internals and raising the boost level and I don't think that you could ever run more boost than this turbo is capable of putting out. Just remember that we should pick a turbo that is not too small because even though we'll have spool up at lower rpm's, at higher rpm's the air velocity inside of the turbo will go past the speed of sound and then the turbocharger heats up like crazy and the efficiency goes way down. Like PerfectD3 said, we have to do some calculations first. I started on some of them, but I'm still reading up on the whole thing.
So far I reccomend a ball bearing turbo and one with a twin-scroll turbine housing (dual exhaust inlet ports). Then we'de need an exhaust manifold that directs the exhaust gases from the outer pistons to one inlet port and the inside pistons to the other inlet port. This will increase efficiency.
I have also been thinking about the issue of an intercooler. The piping for the intercooler will be difficult to route. There's the small space that the Injen Race Division Intake uses. Routing two pipes that way will be very inneficient unless the intercooler itself is designed with the inlet and outlet on one side of the intercooler. I was thinking that you could route the pipes under the frame that supports the radiator and have them squished a little to avoid ground clearance issues. That would be kinda inefficient as well.
The solution that I came up with is a water to air intercooler. I haven't checked whether there are any cheap water to air intercoolers available, but I have an idea to make one if I can't find one. Basically you have piping that goes from the turbo to the throttle body with compressed air in it that is somewhat hotter than the air outside. You have a water to air intercooler betwean the turbo and the throttle body. Then you have flexible hoses with the water in it going to a radiator which can be mounted up front. You have an in-line pump that keeps the water circulating. That's basically it.
The advantages of this system is that there are less pipe bends to restrict the air flow, so it is more efficient. You also don't have to worry about routing the pipes that carry the air. Flexible hoses can take care of this. I don't know how hot the water would get? It depends on what boost pressure we're running I think? I don't think it would get hotter than the radiator fluid in the stock radiator would get, so using that kind of fluid is probably a smart thing to do. You'de also have the anti-freeze already in there. Adding water wetter should help out as well. Using copper as the transfer material will increase efficiency as well.
What do you guys think?
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I like your idea of the water to air "intercooler" except there are a few shortcomings: by running flexible hoses (presumably) around the intake pipe, not much cooling would take place, as the hoses would also be in contact with the surrounding air that is quite hot inside the engine compartment.
My other concern is is the efficiency of our radiator. By adding more pumps and lines into the radiator, you would also reduce the pressure of the radiator system, which in turn will lower the boiling point of the coolant--and that's not good. However, we could counter this problem with upgraded hoses and high pressure radiator cap, although this would reduce the stress on the stock radiaor also, radiator upgrade perhaps?
if it comes down to it ill make the kit with multiple turbo options- it sounds like people will be happier with a smaller turbo- i guess both my friend josh with about 15 years of turbo experence and revhard are rong in chosing the t3/t4 turbo for our engines- anyways the intercooler is most likely going to have to be routed from the passenger side- thers like no room from the drivers side- especialy if you have ac- as far as the injectors go- iall i know is that rc can make any injector meet anny cc reqirement- yes the aem pnp computer is out and its like 1700 bones- but reall i want to get one thing worked out at a time- im gonna set up a time with josh to talk and see what he has to say about everything- i might not be able to do that till next week- (wating for my tax return [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/IMG]) sooooo i really really want to take this one step at a time- not to step on your toes or anything perfect but EVERYONE i mean EVERYONE that ive talked to says that a t3/t4 turbo would be an excelent size to go with as far as the motor is concerend- any body know someone by the name of vinnie ten??? hes menioned on the rc website- him AND his head mecanic recomended that turbo- revhards kit will come witht that turbo and im gonna run that turbo- weather at 7 psi or 15- ill have a range to play with- thas why im even doing this- if i really waned id just go out and pick up a paxton and make up the brackets and call it a day- but i like the turbo bc of is ajustability and tuneabiliy- i think personaly a t3/t4 will suit my needs perfectly- bc when i do upgrade the inernals next year ill be ready to run more boost- the t28 or 25 is a great idea as well- it spools up quick- nice and small- cheap to boot- but your pushing that turbo to its max- if you run a hybrid your only going to be using about 50 to 70 percent of its potential- i dont know its up to you guys- and once again i cant explain ths enough- all your guys input is great- and once i get this finished- mad props to all of ya bc you all helped build it-
Hrm... Are you going to upgrade the stock fuel system before or after you slap the T3/T4?
If before, then like i said in my post you will be ok, but don't get boost happy until you fortify the internals.
Grey: Right, if we are not going to upgrade the fuel system running a T25/T28... an intercooler would cause us to become leaner that if it were not there, so I would recommend waiting until the fuel system is able to handle more flow until you start routing an intercooler. When dealing with FI, bends and such do have a role in power loss, but for everyday driving a air to water is not recommended, it can be used and has been before, but it is mostly ideal for drag race purposes.
Pinkytoe: Go ahead with your T3/T4, but just remember to not get boost happy!
Grey: I guess me and you will explore the T25 or T28 avenue?
perfect- absolutely im going to build the stock fuel system- we are able to get everything nessascary to do so- im also going to check into buildig the manifold that will support diffrent turbos
>> I like your idea of the water to air "intercooler" except there are a few shortcomings: by running flexible hoses (presumably) around the intake pipe, not much cooling would take place, as the hoses would also be in contact with the surrounding air that is quite hot inside the engine compartment. <<
It wouldn't heat up the water as much as you think. I could insulate those hoses to get rid of that effect and make the system even more efficient. Remember that the water would be circulated by the pump and the radiator would get rid of the heat pretty fast.
>> My other concern is is the efficiency of our radiator. By adding more pumps and lines into the radiator, you would also reduce the pressure of the radiator system, which in turn will lower the boiling point of the coolant--and that's not good. However, we could counter this problem with upgraded hoses and high pressure radiator cap, although this would reduce the stress on the stock radiaor also, radiator upgrade perhaps? <<
You're thinking that I'm going to hook this thing up to the stock radiator? No, I'll buy another radiator(s) and place those in certain places and run my hoses with the water to those. It will be a complete system. I won't leach off of anything stock (except for a little power for the electric water pump).
The placement of the radiators might be tricky. I don't know if I'de want to put them in front of the stock radiator since the engine will be stressed by the turbo anyway, so I want the engine to be as cool as possible itself. I think I can place the radiators as low as possible and horizontally so that the air rushing past under the car can cool them. I'll could experiment with this by running temperature guages and see what works best. Actually, I could make this now before the turbo. Hum...
>> When dealing with FI, bends and such do have a role in power loss, but for everyday driving a air to water is not recommended, it can be used and has been before, but it is mostly ideal for drag race purposes. <<
You're right that they're mostly used for drag racing. Here's a small article explaining why: Drag Racing Applications for Air/Water Intercoolers Also, here's an interesting quote that argues both air-to-air and air-to-water intercoolers.
<< Each type of intercooler has its strength and weakness. Air-to-air units tend to require longer ducting to route the air from the turbo through the intercooler then back to the engine; this extra tubing will increase lag time a bit in a turbo. Air-to-water units, however, can have significantly shorter intake plumbing; the intercooler can be placed in hot underhood areas where no airflow is present since its coolant circulates to the radiator. This allows for a reduction in turbo lag but at an expense of reduced cooling. Note that both kinds cool better when air is flowing through the intercooler (air-to-air) or the radiator (air-to-water); both kinds can benefit from the installation of a fan for low-speed operation.
Which type is better? Depends on your goal. From where I sit it seems that air-to-water intercoolers are used mainly for convenience - either to eliminate the possible ducting nightmare of the intake air or merely to make said ducting as short as physically possible. I think it is telling that a number of cars which featured air-to-water intercoolers from the factory - such as the GMC Syclone and Typhoon - are almost always converted to air-to-air units when upping performance is the goal. Check out an issue of Turbo magazine; you'll see these cars with huge air-to-air units mounted below the front bumber (or else behind the grill and in front of the radiator). There's a message here somewhere... >>
Basically air-to-water is better at cooling the intake charge at lower speeds and is better suited towards the space constraints that we have to work with. We have a huge space for an air-to-water intercooler (replacing the space taken up by the stock air box), and virtually no space for an air-to-air intercooler. So, after reading the above what do you guys think? If we still want to go with an air-to-air intercooler then let's list some ideas of fitting the damn thing in.
hey grey thats a cool idea but for a daily diver that means we have to keep ice water with up for maximum performance gains- right??? well on the sparco website they dont speak about hooking the system up to a coolant system- i think of it this way- whats better?? a air to air when the temp outside is 90 degrees- or a air to liquid when the liquid is over 150 degrees? at least-
No no, the system would basically function the same way as an air-to-air intercooler. The intake charge could not be cooled down to more than the air temperature outside in both the air-to-water and air-to-air intercooler. Putting in colder water than the air temperature outside would make the air-to-water intercooler perform much better than the air-to-air intercooler. The air-to-water intercooler already has an advantage over the air-to-air intercooler in that it has less pipe bends, so the intake charge is not restricted as much as in an air-to-air intercooler. Plus it works better at low speeds wil an adition of a fan to the radiator (just like the stock radiator has). The disadvantages are that it will weigh more and that it's a little more complicated than the air-to-air intercooler.
Anyway, I think I'll be going this route. I don't like the air-to-air intercooler in our cars because of the limited space. How are you going to fit that sucker in?
are you thinking about using the colant system in our car and run it to the intercooler??? well that water is pretty hot already or are you talking about hooking up some sort of tank with a pump that recirulates the water???
[IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/IMG] I can see where Grey is heading now...
Yes, it's true that air to water would be quite effective and space efficient. I could picture the design now...
We could construct a heat shield around the intake pipe with water hoses running around the pipe. The coolant would be water mixed with antifreeze, and the we can mount a small radiator on the upper left corner of our engine bay--facing upward (top mounted)
Another input on air to air intercooler: we can use the intercooler from VW's 1.8 T on Golf's and Jetta's. The size is quite compact--10x6x2 inches, and we could consider a top mounted option also--less piping (but hell ugly hoodscoop)
>> We could construct a heat shield around the intake pipe with water hoses running around the pipe. The coolant would be water mixed with antifreeze, and the we can mount a small radiator on the upper left corner of our engine bay--facing upward (top mounted) <<
The heat shield could be a layer of plastic covering the whole intercooler. It could be just a sheet of aluminum that faces the engine to block off radiated heat. Yeah, who knows? It will be interesting to see how much of a factor the radiated heat is in the engine bay. It might be the case that the heat flow of the water-to-air intercooler is so great that the heating of it due to the radiated heat from the engine is very small.
Now remember, there can not just be water hoses running around the intake pipe. It was to be a heat exchanger (like a radiator) with water circulating in it inside of the intake pipe. The bigger the radiator inside of the intake pipe and the bigger the radiator outside of the intake pipe the better the system will transfer the heat from one place to the other. Mounting the radiator facing upwards is an interesting idea. Especially if you had a hood scoop. Then it would be functional. Mounting a fan on the radiator for low speed cooling is a good idea as well. I don't think there's enough space for a fan and a radiator when they're top mounted, but who knows?
>> Another input on air to air intercooler: we can use the intercooler from VW's 1.8 T on Golf's and Jetta's. The size is quite compact--10x6x2 inches, and we could consider a top mounted option also--less piping (but hell ugly hoodscoop) <<
Hum... Yeah, maybe I should consider pre-built ones. That would be the best thing to get if I could find one that matches our engine bay well.
[IMG]i/expressions/moon.gif[/IMG] I'M INTERESTED !!!!
I HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS FOR EVER, I CANT WAIT TO SMOKE ALL THOSE OTHER CARS!!!!![IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-cool.gif[/IMG]
