threeoten

Last night at the end of a long drive, I heard from a new noise from inside the car. Got out, popped the hood and hovered my head over the engine and it seemed loudest over the intake manifold and that the noise was coming from there. It also seems to go faster when given some gas. Here's a little audio recording of it (there's another noise too, a clicking, not quite sure what that is either, but listen for the other noise too):

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ne%20Noise.m4a

Any idea what to look into?
thanks

ezone

I hear a lot of normal stuff like injectors ticking constantly ----along with a lower pitch sound that seems to occur about 3x per second. I can't tell what any of it is though, and sound reproduction on a laptop is crappy.

Use a stethoscope to locate the source of the noise(s) or at least narrow down to a small area. A dowel or long screwdriver held to your ear may work as a listening device.

threeoten

I just tried the screwdriver method, which I've never tried before, but I feel like I hear the noise the loudest from the alternator.

ezone

A next step could be to disconnect that belt and see if the noise is gone.

Listen at the plastic timing covers too.

threeoten

So I can just start it up with the belt off? (sorry, I haven't done much engine related work).

I don't really see any plastic timing covers. It's the KA5MT so there's a timing chain.

ezone

The K20 engine? I didn't realize, I was thinking of the usual 1.7 D engine.
No plastic timing covers then.

Um, if you remove the drive belt, don't run it longer than about 30 seconds because the water pump won't be working. If the water pump is not circulating coolant within the block, it can cause localized overheating extremely quickly.

I'd hope it shouldn't take long to determine if the noise is gone or not once the belt is disabled.

You really only have to slip it off of a pulley so it has no tension on it and can't spin. You don't have to take it all the way off of the engine.

OR while it is running, you might even be able to use a wrench to rotate the spring loaded belt tensioner arm to let the belt go slack and stop spinning the accessories. IDK how doable that is for you though.


If you heard noise in the alternator, check out the ac compressor for noise directly below it. The bearing in the compressor pulley is a usual suspect for noise.

threeoten

Well, I didn't mention it yet, because I thought it probably wasn't related.. but now that you're talking AC..... Earlier, on the same long drive, I noticed a strange noise while driving, shut off the music and stated listening & troubleshooting a bit—turned out to be the AC. The noise (can't remember if it was the same noise in the clip or not) went away when I turned off the AC. Needless to say, 20 minutes later the AC was dead.

Do you think this is all related? Maybe the AC compressor? The noise that I originally posted about is there with the AC and blower totally off.

ezone

All I can say is investigate the noise and see what it comes from. Then decide.

If you take the belt clear off of the pulleys, spin each one by hand and listen for noise. They should all be quiet when you spin by hand.

threeoten

Whoa. Okay, took a look underneath to get a view of the AC compressor and discovered a decent sized crack in it, leaking oil. How the hell does that even happen? I think replacing the compressor might be a good place to start, eh?

ezone

Image failed to link.

I guess an exploded compressor explains the broken AC and probably the noise too.

Next step is to evaluate if there is compressor debris inside the system, and see how far through the system it may have gone.
Any leftover debris or residue could wipe out a new compressor in short order. The dark gray powder that may be coating the insides of the pipes would be an abrasive to a new compressor.

threeoten

I'll start researching a bunch. Thanks ezone, you've been the most helpful person on here, in my experience, I appreciate it.

ezone

Thanks for the kind words.

Hey, it worked today! Exploded, something tried to escape from inside LOL, that's bad.
Ever been serviced or is it all untouched original? If it's ever been serviced in any way, could the system have been run low of refrigerant oil?

threeoten

I'm not the first owner, but to my knowledge it's the original.

Online, I'm learning that I'll have to get the system recovered of all refrigerant before taking any AC components apart, but if the compressor cracked open, does that mean that it's already leaked out and I can skip that step?

ezone

Skip it, the system is completely empty.

threeoten

So as to not risk blowing the new compressor, should I also be replacing the receiver drier, expansion valve, and condenser?

ezone

You need to figure out IF there is debris from the compressor failure in the system, determine how far it went through the system, and figure out how much debris there is inside the system.

That means taking each fitting apart--- following the path of circulation-- to inspect.

I'd remove the hoses from the compressor, use a q-tip to swab the ports and check color.
If the suction port discharge port is dark or black, the entire system is likely contaminated. If not, then remove hoses from the inlet and outlet of the condensor, repeat the swab process checking for color and metal fragments.
If the condensor shows signs of the contamination, it gets replaced.
Move on to the receiver/drier and check the outlet line there. The drier also has a filter so any solid debris should have been trapped there.....but the fine powder canget through so check for the dark residue anyway.
Lines, hoses, etc may need replaced or flushed.. I have been told that solid one-piece tubing can be flushed clean and reused, but hoses that have been crimped to pipes should be replaced as they can have debris hidden that may wreak havoc on the system later on.

I didn't find a good copy of Honda bulletin 09-076, google that and see if you can. If you can find it, it is an excellent guide for determining how bad yours is, but keep in mind it is specifically for a completely different car (CRV) so parts, part numbers and work procedures won't be the same for you.

I did find this but it's not what I was looking for:
https://www.coursehero.com/file/p1d4...n-the-suction/





I'll guess at minimum you need the compressor, discharge hose, condensor, and drier, plus maybe some flushing.
.

threeoten

Found it! http://www.in.honda.com/Rjanisis/pubs/SB/A09-076.PDF
This site seems to have a lot of manuals too, just in a slow web format, have to load each page seperately" http://workshop-manuals.com/honda/cr...s_inoperative/

I keep hearing about a recall and/or lawsuit on these Honda compressors, is this long gone at this point and nothing that I can take advantage of?

ezone

There was never a recall for that.

You can check your cars recall status at recalls.honda.com (or something like that)

threeoten

Any advice on brands for compressors and some of these other components? I'm seeing GPD & Four Seasons on Rockauto as my only choices. Universal AC & Omega on amazon.

dsm482

ezone is the man

ezone

Honda has many compressors available as reman, call your dealer and check

threeoten

Finally got to those hoses to swab them, had to take half the damn car apart just to get to them!
• comp. suction hose (low side) was the worst with several good sized metal shavings
• comp. discharge hose (high side) was a little dirty, but only some little shiny specs, not whole shavings like the other side
• top of condenser inlet/hose was the dirtiest, greyish black, and more tiny shiny specs

I was thinking that the discharge hose going out to the condenser would be where I would find all the metal (from the comp. exploding) since thats the direction of flow, right? But it was all on the other side going into the comp.

Anyhow, so is it fair to say that I'm looking at replacing basically the whole system? Comp, cond, receiver, exp valve? The things I'm not sure if I have to replace is:
• the evaporator?
• hoses/lines. Low press. and high sides both have some of that crimp tubing in them...

ezone

SO.. compressor, condensor, drier... maybe the suction and discharge hoses at the compressor....so far...
A thorough flush for anything that isn't replaced. R141b is the usual flush, I used to get it from Napa.


Pull the line off the receiver-drier that leads toward the firewall-evaporator and swab it, see if anything got past the drier bottle.

I might pull the lines off at the firewall and swab there too, see if it's gonna be necessary to get into the evaporator and expansion valve.

Since the normal system flow is
compressor > condensor > drier > TXV > evaporator > compressor, I bet that when the compressor grenaded it just sent some schrapnel into the suction line but it may not have reached the expansion valve through that particular line.

If you want, you can check into getting a filter screen (available through some aftermarket sources) that is to be placed in the suction port of the compressor, it's intended to catch any leftover debris and protect the new compressor. I know they are available for most GM vehicle applications, but IDK if any will fit a Honda.

NOTE, the oil used in the AC system.....A new compressor from Honda comes with enough oil for the entire system.
IDK if this is true of Hondas reman compressors.
Aftermarket reman compressors normally have NO oil in them, you have to add the correct amount of oil yourself as you build the system.

threeoten

Well, just assuming that the whole system is compromised, I ordered all the components, including evaporator and suction/discharge hoses. But I don't think that I'm gonna be able to take on the recharging part, mostly because I'm heading on a long road trip real soon and also don't have vacuum pump, manifold gauges, etc. So if I take it in to get recharged, what state are they gonna want the system in before they do the job, in other words, what do I have to make sure is done before I can drive the car 90 mi (i live in the middle of nowhere) to my mechanic? I would assume put together & sealed up with the right amount of oil in the system?.. or will the oil get vacuumed out when they pull a vacuum before recharging? I guess I'm confused about the order of operations here.

ezone

If you got a compressor from Honda, make sure it comes with a bunch of oil already in it.
A new compressor comes with enough oil for a complete system already in it, so you shouldn't need to add any more at all.
I KNOW the brand new ones are prefilled, but I'm not positive the remans are....so make sure.

You could tip it up and see if it starts pouring out of a hose port, but use a very clean cup to catch it and pour it back in...or replace what comes out with new oil (SP-10). Cleanliness is extremely important.



Just put the system together, lube all O rings with refrigerant oil as you assemble the joints so the O rings slide easy and don't get cut (I use spray silicone just because it's more convenient, but I cover up the ends so the interior of the fitting doesn't get contaminated.

Once the system completely installed, you're good to drive it to the shop to have it evacuated and charged. The vacuum process should include a leak test which is letting it sit still while under a vacuum for a while to see if the vacuum bleeds off (vacuum pump not running, checking for vacuum decay). If test passes with no decay, it gets charged with freon by weight.

The vacuum process can't extract oil from the bottoms of a system.
It can and will remove oil that is suspended in the freon (oil is suspended and circulated with the freon during system operation), this is why I like to let a system sit still (OFF) for a while before removing the freon to let it 'settle out' to the low areas by gravity.


HTH

threeoten

I'm using aftermarket parts, mostly UAC, they seemed to have a decent rep. The oil adding part is confusing me a bit. I'm swapping all major components in the system, and the manual says to "if you're installing a new [whatever component] add refrigerant oil". Do I add the said amount to each part (as seen below)? And do I need to first find out if each part comes with any oil in it already (condenser, evap, drier) before I go adding more? Or is the compressor the only piece likely to come with oil in it?

I've been trying to find videos that show specifics on adding oil to each component, but am having a hard time.

Also, is SP-10 the same as PAG 46? I can't find SP-10 anywhere.

ezone

Don't worry about adding to individual components.

You only have to add an amount of oil, the system doesn't care where it goes because the oil doesn't stay in one place.

The amounts associated with an individual component replacement are usually based on the internal volume of that component--- and how much oil can be expected to be found in it after flow stops and the oil pools in the bottom of said components.

New system parts never come with oil in them.
Only a compressor would, and nobody ever knows if an aftermarket compressor will.
You gotta find out.

Open up the new aftermarket compressor and empty it out, and maybe measure how much comes out of it just so you know how much it had.
I'd expect an ounce, max, as an assembly and testing lube.

Now....All you need to know is how much oil the entire system holds.
Total amount.
Find that spec and pour all of it in the compressor.
(My info shows 4-1/3 to 5 oz for the complete system oil capacity.)

After you install the system and have it completely assembled together, rotate the compressor clutch by hand several turns in the direction of normal rotation (clockwise) so you know it isn't going to hydrolock during startup
*throwback to the olden days*

Once the system is charged and operable, the oil will be carried throughout the system by freon flow.

================================================

Aftermarket compressor, read up and use whatever oil type that maker specifies.

threeoten

Ok, I'm waiting on a couple more parts to come, but here's my list of steps. Am I missing anything? Also there are a few questions I have lingering thrown in there...

1. Remove old compressor

• Scowl at it for several minutes then give it the finger

2. Remove suction and discharge hoses
3. Remove condenser
4. Remove drier
5. Remove high side lines
6. Remove evaporator and expansion valve
7. Empty any oil from new compressor
8. Add 5oz oil to new compressor

• Q: ADD OIL BY WEIGHT OR VOLUME?

9. Install new compressor

• plug ports until ready to attach hoses

10. Install new evaporator and expansion valve

• plug high side until ready to attach line

11. Install new suction hose

• Q: DO I NEED TO FLUSH or BLOW OUT THE BRAND NEW HOSES?

12. Install new condenser
13. Install new discharge hose
14. Flush condenser and receiver lines

• Leave lines out & open to dry
  • Q: LEAVE LINES OUT & OPEN TO DRY FOR HOW LONG?
  • Q: USE DRY NITROGEN? (this was suggested in something I read)
  • Q: IS THERE A MIN/MAX PSI FOR THESE LINES?

15. Install condenser and receiver lines
16. Install drier
17. Turn compressor clockwise several times
18. Reinstall blower motor
19. Reinstall alternator and belt
20. Reinstall bumper, headlights, and battery
21. Do ECM idle learn process
22. Turn steering from lock to lock several times, idled, make sure EPS light stays off
23. Take in to have the system vacuumed and recharged

NOTES:
• Replace and lube all o-rings

ezone

You should give it a sternly worded scolding while you're at it.


Volume. A 4oz can is 4 fluid ounces, etc.
Why?
I sure hope ALL new parts are sealed and clean inside.
Hell no.
There should be NO reason to flush any brand new parts.
That's why you got all new parts.

You shouldn't need to flush ANYTHING if you got all new parts to build a complete AC system. Only contaminated stuff would need flushed, and you aren't trying to reuse anything that was contaminated.

Did the parts arrive unprotected, unsealed, dirty, sand filled, etc.?
Again, you are not flushing any new parts.....or are you?


All the lines from Honda usually come with the O rings already attached.
If you have to get O rings for your system, make SURE they are for use with R134a. Usually they are green in color, but there can be other colors too, but they should be HBNR or HSN type O rings IIRC.

threeoten

Sorry, I should have clarified, I was just planning on reusing the solid lines on the high pressure side and only replacing the lines that have the crimped rubber hoses in them, which you said would be trickier to flush completely. So the flushing questions only apply to the solid lines that I'm reusing on the high pressure side:

Q: LEAVE LINES OUT & OPEN TO DRY FOR HOW LONG?
Q: USE DRY NITROGEN? (this was suggested in something I read)
Q: IS THERE A MIN/MAX PSI FOR THESE LINES?