CdXa

I wish I had seen what you wrote earlier, because right around the same time I was getting my wire hot again soldering a ton more onto the wire and in around the clamp.

The good news is that that there is no hesitation now - but then again, its a perfect sunny day with zero humidity.

I'll have to see how the car does when it rains.

Hate to hear about the insomnia. I wake at 2:30 AM every day to get to work by 4:00 AM , so I get around 4 hours a night. It really destroys the body.
Hope you find something to help you sleep.

ezone

I'd wire your test equipment up and leave it so when the car acts up, you can see what it did right then and there. Plan carefully.
Sounds like it might only take a couple of days before it would act up.

CdXa

It's overcast and a tiny bit humid and colder.
The car starts, but that damned lag is back. I have to wait at least a second or two for the pump to kick on.
If I go straight to III and turn the key, the car just cranks for as long as I hold the key.
To start the car, I have to turn to II wait for the pump to prime, then go to III and start.

I placed my probe on the Yellow/green wire and a ground and it reads zero. Once the pump primes it goes to 11.9

The wire that I soldered ( Yellow/white ) has a constant 12.1 at all times - but even when the pump is not priming. So apparently I didn't screw that up .

I'm about ready to throw in the towel . I can't drive anywhere without worrying if ill make it home.

BTW, the CEL is coming on but its not instant. Maybe one half second - is this normal ?

ezone

So what input is missing from the relay that is keeping it from turning on the pump? Is the same issue causing the CEL to be delayed? Are these two symptoms directly related?
(this whole mess has had many of the signs of a bad relay, but you said it is new.)
The relay has only 7 wires, figure out what each one has when it all works, compare to what is there when it's broke.
Play "One of these things is not like the others."


Sorry man, I tried. Electrical just isn't something that everyone can grasp, even mechanics. You better find someone that has a clue at a shop, that will rule out about 75% of mechanics. A good percentage just coast on no real knowledge doing brake jobs and such all day.
(Yeah, I have issues with one of these in our shop right now. Couldn't diagnose his way out of a wet paper bag, yet manages to keep this job because "hanging parts" generates revenue for the shop...........but at the expense of what? Bean counting managers can only see the first column of numbers.)

You mean when you turn the key to ON and before you crank the engine?
I believe it should come on at the same instant you hit the ON position and the main relay clicks and supplies power to the computer through the yel/blk wire. Does this light coincide with the fuel pump delay??
Re-read the first part of this reply.

CdXa

I tested all the terminal combinations on the relay that the Chiltons guide said, and the main relay checked out fine.
I didn't test the new one because ....well its new.
I have used it maybe 55 - 60 times, and I would think the thing wouldn't fail after that long.
I seem to remember the problem reappeared soon after I installed the new one anyways.

I'm going to retest both just for the hell of it.

I hooked a 9v battery to the terminals and got ' clicks' on each terminal.

ezone

Live tests are far better than ohm tests. Ohm tests don't load a circuit.
A basic relay that clicks only indicates one half of it is good. The coil half. Not the half with the contacts. Live tests tell if the contacts can support an electrical load.

New doesn't automatically mean good. NEW= Never Ever Worked.

CdXa

I just re-did the continuity test as specified on the Chiltons guide on both relays.
All terminals on both ' clicked ' and showed continuity when I connected voltage ( a 9v battery )

It's getting more humid and now zthe car will not even prime the pump at all.

The CEL comes on no more than a half second ( " one one thousand " ) after the red dash lights appear.

Next I will check for voltage at the switch.

Get some rest. You've been a great help.

I think its time I start looking for another car. Even if I replaced a hundred different parts, with a problem like this, I'm always going to be nervous driving the car.

ezone

Chase the CEL then. You sound like the computer is losing its power source and shutting down. If the computer isn't powered, then it can't control the pump relay.

Slowly rock the ignition key back and forth far enough to move the ignition switch, does the CEL light come and go?

You know how to solder? Open up the old relay and resolder the exposed circuit board components. Plug it in and see if anything changes.

CdXa

I just jumped the main relay switch. It comes on immediately when the key is turned .
All wires show voltage at the back of the ignition switch when I ground them and test for voltage at the soldered ends.

I'll add more solder to the relay, but it looks perfect. The brand new one looked identical to the old one when I first got it.

I'm going to test at the back f the relay plug next ( the Yellow/green wire )
Yesterday when the car was running this wire showed zero untill the pump kicked on.
I'll try it both with the relay and jumped.


As far as the CEL, it comes on almost instant. About the time it takes to snap your fingers.

The other lights come on instantly.

CdXa

Just tested the Yellow/green wire. As expected, zero voltage untill it is jumped and the pump kicks on.

the Yellow wire with the thin white stripe that I soldered earlier now shows zero current in all turns of the key.

I'm pretty certain that there is a break somewhere between there and its source.

( or does this sound like a computer issue ??? )

I'm almost certain that the area that I soldered has good current . Not only does it have s ton of solder on it, but I wrapped the solder line down the length of the wire a good two or so inches.


If I just splice a new wire at the source and follow it down to the relay plug, fo you think this might fix things ?

ezone

If you don't have battery voltage on this wire (yel/wht, relay terminal 7), it gets its power from the underhood fusebox, fuse#31, 15 amp, labeled ECU. This has to be a constant battery voltage on this wire at all times.

Either your meter lost a connection or you have a real problem here.




Overkill?


As a temporary situation, yes. At least that would let you see if the problem keeps happening. Hell, just for a test you could hotwire it right to the battery. I wouldn't leave it that way though. No fuse could be a fire hazard.

ezone

My diagram does not show any connectors or splices in that wire from the underhood box all the way to the main relay either. One continuous wire.

Make sure both blades of the fuse fit tight in each of it's receptacle terminals.
Use your meter on each of the exposed fuse tips to check it for power.

By the way, your car isn't a VX, right? It has a different diagram.
CX, DX, LX, EX, Si are all the same.

CdXa

Good night. I mean ...good morning.

The car is a DX auto. I WISH my car was a VX, since those cars get over 50 MPG.

It's raining today, so perfect weather to test .

Get some rest , and thanks .

CdXa

Yesterday was sunny and clear, but car will not start.

I notice that all the dash lights, including the CEL stay on when I have the key turned to the position where the fuel pump kicks on ( II ? Or is it III )

So yah. All the dash lights remain lit and stay on untill I pull the key out .

If I try to start the car, it just turns over.

ezone

I don't use roman numerals. I use common terms that anyone in the biz should be able to understand:
Accessory, On/Run, Crank.
KOEO: Key On, Engine Off
KOER:Key On, Engine Running
Simple, no?

I might start over at square one, if nothing obvious stands out to me as blatantly wrong. Compression, spark, fuel. Which one is missing or wrong?

CdXa

Looking at your previous post here.

I was farting around and tested the thing again. Some of this doesn't match up as far as colors of wires and such.

This is what i got :

# 1 Yellow/white is hot ( always )
# 2 black -X
# 3 Yellow/black -X
# 5 Black/yellow - hot
# 6 Blue/white - shows 8.8 v ( only when cranking )
# 7 Yellow/green -X


So i notice that my wire colors are different. I know i have the MainRelay plugged in right, because it can only go in one way.

BTW, I am getting the numbers by referring to the raised numbers within the plastic on the MainRelay.

One more thing : the car will not start today. I have 12 Amps all the way to the crimp fitting in the MainRelay plug on the Yellow/white wire that i soldered. Its nice and tight too. I'm almost positive that it is mating up to the prong correctly.

ezone

Your colors aren't really different, are they?
Problem: The numbering system on the relay may not be the same as designated terminal positions in a connector. Go by the wire colors.

This link has the same diagrams I am looking at. Also the same complaint as you. Is this you?
http://www.justanswer.com/honda/1k2w...n-t-start.html
----------------------------------------------

Your voltage checks: Every spot you put down an X in needs to be checked while cranking the engine.

Especially the black wire. If that wire is not well grounded, the relay won't work right.

Recheck these before putting any weight on the rest of this reply.

----------------------------------------------

Ok, based on your answer above, there should have been battery voltage on the yellow/black whenever the key is turned ON. Problem!
Your X means you got nothing, right? (At the same time, the check engine light shouldn't have come on because the ECM wasn't powered up.)
And there was battery voltage on the yellow/white wire.
Assuming all connections are good: Bad relay.

You could use a jumper across these 2 wires to see if the engine will start. Or run a jumper from any handy battery voltage source to the yellow/black wire.



You are measuring VOLTS, not AMPS.


Dinner is done, gotta go eat!

CdXa

[QUOTE=ezone;4584389]Your colors aren't really different, are they?
Problem: The numbering system on the relay may not be the same as designated terminal positions in a connector. Go by the wire colors.

This link has the same diagrams I am looking at. Also the same complaint as you. Is this you?

Nope - not me. Thanks for the link !



http://www.justanswer.com/honda/1k2w...n-t-start.html
----------------------------------------------

Your voltage checks: Every spot you put down an X in needs to be checked while cranking the engine.

Especially the black wire. If that wire is not well grounded, the relay won't work right.

Recheck these before putting any weight on the rest of this reply.

Will do sir.

----------------------------------------------

Ok, based on your answer above, there should have been battery voltage on the yellow/black whenever the key is turned ON. Problem!
Your X means you got nothing, right?

Correct .


(At the same time, the check engine light shouldn't have come on because the ECM wasn't powered up.)

Errr....nope the CEL comes on just fine ( and remains lit as do all the other dash lights when i have it on "II" ..uh..ahem...KeyOnEngineOff ( like hey scoob it's printed "II" right on the ignition switch."


And there was battery voltage on the yellow/white wire.
Assuming all connections are good: Bad relay.

I tested with the relay pulled off and at the plug ends.

You could use a jumper across these 2 wires to see if the engine will start. Or run a jumper from any handy battery voltage source to the yellow/black wire.

Sorry - which 2 wires are we talking here ?
Also, what kind of battery ? You mean run a wire coming all the way from the main battery that is used to start the car ?

I can jump the mainrelay plug and get it to kick the fuel pump on ( it stays on ). I've tested this way several times already ( I mentioned it a few posts back as a matter of fact )
The car will not start with the mainrelay jumped. The fuel pump runs, the car has spark, air and turns over, but does not start.



You are measuring VOLTS, not AMPS.

I knew that ( not really ).


Dinner is done, gotta go eat!

CdXa

I'll recheck that statement about the CEL coming on when you said it should have not have come on. I was testing without the Main Relay on, so what you said makes sense now that i think about it.
I now have a habit of looking at my dash lights when i test. The CEL always comes on fine.

EDIT the CEL light and all other lights come on even with the Main Relay removed. I just ran out to the car and checked it.

ezone

I tested with the relay pulled off and at the plug ends.

Dammit man!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nevermind. Most of my entire answer is irrelevant now.

The fuel pump runs, the car has spark, air and turns over, but does not start.

Is there moisture inside the distributor cap?

ezone

Also:

(At the same time, the check engine light shouldn't have come on because the ECM wasn't powered up.)

Errr....nope the CEL comes on just fine ( and remains lit as do all the other dash lights when i have it on "II" ..uh..ahem...KeyOnEngineOff ( like hey scoob it's printed "II" right on the ignition switch."


No, the CEL wasn't on while the relay was unplugged.

LIVE TESTING!


I can't see the "II" when I'm sitting in the drivers seat. I feel the positions, I don't have to look.
I can deal with all makes and brands of cars, not just Honda. I have to use terms anyone in the biz understands. Consequently, I don't think in strictly Honda terms.

CdXa

[QUOTE=ezone;4584429]I tested with the relay pulled off and at the plug ends.

Dammit man!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nevermind. Most of my entire answer is irrelevant now.



The fuel pump runs, the car has spark, air and turns over, but does not start.

Is there moisture inside the distributor cap?


Almost absolutely positive the answer to that is no. The entire distributor ( cap, rotor , coil etc is factory sealed new. ( Remember I toasted the last one and replaced it ? )

I looked over the link that you sent. i'll try the gas pedal trick tomorrow and let you know. I'll also send that guy a link this thread so we can trade answers.

ONE OTHER THING : Remember I misted the engine the last time it was running to check for hesitation ? I even had beads of water on the plug wires. no hesitation. I misted around the cap too. things were fine.
Today there is no humidity, but now the car is not starting despite this.

CdXa

I just ran out to the car again. Both of my Main Relays* are sitting on the floorboard - yet that CEL comes on when i turn the key.

* The original one and the replacement that i bought after all the signs pointed to a "bad Main Relay".

ezone

WTF?
Sorry about that.
My bad.

Just fished through several diagrams and NOW I can see how if the ECM has not been powered up, the entire unit becomes a ground circuit for the idiot light. I didn't realize/remember they would do this. Maybe I was thinking of having the ECM unplugged, IDK.
At any rate, nevermind. I"m an idiot.

So apparently the CEL idiot light alone can't be trusted to tell if the ECM is powered up.

CdXa

I was reading about the various sensors in my car and came across something called a Barometric Pressure sensor .

As you know, when there is even a slight bit of humidity, the barometric pressure rises.

I looked for the location of this sensor, and it is incorporated within the ECU.

I pulled the two blue plugs going to the ECU and jumped them ( actually i accidentally got a spark on one of them ) The Chilton Guide is nearly useless as far as help.

I looked really close at the grainy low contrast black and white photo in the manual and figured out that im supposed to jump the small 2 pin plug.

So I checked for codes - Nuthin ! No blinking.

I then pulled the ECU fuse under the hood and tried again - nuthin ! The CEL comes on and remains lit.

Just out of curiosity, i left the plugs just hanging there ( so the ECU shouldn't have given me a CEL light right ? )

Hmmm the CEL comes on and stays lit.

I had checked the ECU before and had the same results when the car was running. No trouble codes.

What cha think a that ?

Most auto parts stores will not take back anything electronic once it is installed, so i have been hesitant to buy a new ECU.

ezone

No, it doesn't have to. Barometric pressure changes significantly with altitude. Not humidity.

Yes. What makes you think this is a problem? There would be a code if it were a huge problem. A proper scantool should reveal if it were inaccurate by reading the data in a datalist.

) *facepalm* I wonder what you hurt this time?

The 2 wire connector is for flashing codes out on the check engine light.
The 3 wire connector is for a Honda compatible scan tool.
A 92 does not have the 3 wire connector, a 93 does have it.
With a proper scantool, you could read the values of the sensors as the computer sees them. Maybe this would be a good step to take.

I never liked Chilton manuals.

OK.....

Unplug all the connectors from the ECM, the CEL should not light.

What about a junkyard?


Have you tried to start the car, and it won't start...... then pull out the sparkplugs to see if they are wet or dry?

CdXa

Ezone : just wanted to thank you for all the advice and your patience .

It's too early to call the car fixed, but I installed a replacement ECU and the car fired right up.

Best of all I just drove in the rain. No problems starting.

Hopefully I never have to repost anything more here and this will solve the issue.

I was getting really stressed about the whole thing and just gave up and walked away for a while.

Thanks again !

Just so that others may know, I removed the cover and looked at the guts of the bad ECU. The circuit board looked flawless except for a tiny little smudge of what looked like glue near one of the circuits . I scratched at it and it even seemed to come off like glue with a seemingly good weld below it.
I never would have thought this was a defect, but it looks like it was .