old97civic

Couple of days ago, drove the 97 Civic and at the first stop sign, noticed the brake pedal dropping. Immediately recognizing this as a problem, I turned around and drove back home and put it in the garage. Leak is severe, there was very little stopping power and was using the hand brake a lot (of course, keeping the speed down to a minimum). Luckily this was after rush hour and I was close to home. But the leak was severe enough that there is a trail of fluid visible on the street and on the driveway!

Anyway I checked each wheel, it wasn't any of the hoses or at the connections there. In the engine bay, no sign of leak there. Traced the entire runs of the fronts, no sign of leak there. Look under the car and I see that the front end of the plastic tray/guard is wet. (not to mention the puddle of fluid on the floor) Not sure of exactly where but one of the rear lines burst somewhere where it starts to bend up at the front.

Since the car is at this point, undriveable, I am starting the removal process for the rear lines. This only costs me time, so if things go sideways all I have to do is call the auto wreckers and they will come pick it up.

I priced out materials and tools for complete replacement of rear lines and hoses at $100, so that's the wager to keep the car on the road.

I read through the service manual and have a good handle on what and where everything is. My biggest fear is damaging the fuel lines while dealing with the brake lines.

Any general tips/advice for this project? Worth it to get flexible copper brake line vs bending steel?

Mad Dog Tannen

Find the one that is leaking, the rubber pieces are usually the ones that pop first. inspect the metal lines if you live where they salt roads.

If one popped, it may be a good idea to look at the other 3 lines and replace them as rubber deteriorates over time and if one is bad the others are probably close to failure.

If there are no leaks and no fluid loss, then you have a bad cylinder.

old97civic

Yes, from a salted road area. There is a WEE bit of rust under the car

Definitely a leak from one of the pipes. No evidence of leaks at the flex hoses near the wheels. The leak is near the front of the lines where they are inside the plastic tray that runs under the car. There is fluid all over everything there. I'll have to remove that tray to get to the lines to identify and replace the burst line, but I'll replace both anyway since I'll be there anyway and the material is fairly cheap. This is definitely going to be a 'labour of love' project.

ezone

Nickel-Copper brake lines are supposed to be the cats meow for DIY brake lines, easy to shape, easy to work with and won't ever rust like steel lines.

old97civic

Rust is probably not a concern as I'll probably only keep the car for 1 or 2 more years (LOL I said the same thing more than 5 years ago).

Seriously though, the copper line is a bit pricier but on the other hand you don't have to buy the fittings (to join up the 5 ft steel sections) and can end up with a one-piece run, so for that reason I may go for it.

I'm getting back to this on Monday to do the removal of the old lines. If everything goes well I will get all the replacement stuff. Will provide updates on how it goes.

old97civic

Worked on this on Monday. I got the old lines disconnected at the front and back ends. Removed the bulk of the lines in the middle, but didn't have much luck with the ends. Too many bends at the front end, and at the back end the lines are held by clips that also hold fuel lines, access is difficult. I'll manage to get the front ends out by cutting them down more, but I think I will just leave some of the rear sections in. Plenty of room for the new lines either way.

Being held up now by waiting for coil of copper-nickel line.

old97civic

Ended up cancelling the order with the store I was dealing with for the coil of Cu/Ni brake line and went with another place, also local. They had it in stock and it was cheaper too.

Only downside is I have company coming for the weekend so this gets put off until Monday anyway.

Moral of the story is always call all the parts places! Not doing this means several of the days of this week went here:

old97civic

Ok, update: both lines are in. Cu-Ni line was really easy to work with. Bent the tubing over a socket for the tight bends where the lines connect to the hoses.

Bad news: broke off one of the bleed valves. Rather than messing around with trying to drill out the remnants or breaking off an extractor tool I just bought another cylinder.

old97civic

Put in the new wheel cylinder, that was actually pretty easy...

Finally got everything hooked up and topped up the brake fluid. Started leaking out at every connection. Kind of disconcerting considering there's no pressure in the system yet! Disconnected the connections at the proportioning valve. Seems the flares came out not square... also in my attempt to stop the leak there I think I drove the fitting in too far and the rusty part of the thread ruined the thread on the valve. May be going to the junkyard tomorrow to get another valve. Stay tuned... the saga continues

Update: Replaced the 2 inverted flare nuts at the front end reflared the lines. It was a ***** to get them started specially with everything wet with fluid but the threads on the valve are still good. The back end at the flex hoses already had new nuts, so I just tightened those a bit at a time.

Need to get more fluid now...

old97civic

Was a bit surprised that I broke off the passenger side bleeder in the wheel cylinder... I did open it less than a year ago. Anyways, new cylinder at that wheel as well. It's like Frito-lays, once you have one you just can't stop LOL.

I'm now fully expecting to need new calipers when I go to bleed at the front wheels.

Mad Dog Tannen

At least you are mentally prepping your self for the worst!

ezone

I'd use a hammer and a flat punch to beat the areas around bleeder hole before trying to loosen it.

old97civic

Didn't get to the car today, and I'm glad I didn't since it gave me time to think about things a bit, and it led to a question. With the way the pipes come out of the top of the proportioning valve, then turn down to go to the wheels, is it possible I wouldn't need to bleed the fronts? I didn't touch those lines at all, only the 2 for the rear wheels.

I guess the only way to know for sure is to just do it. I'll start by bleeding the rears and see if I can get a firm pedal. If I can, I'm done!

Good tip about the punch. I see some even go as far as torching them with oxy-acetylene. A bit extreme for me given that I might free the bleeder but melt the piston seal.

ezone

I worry about heat like that too.

A little heat can work some miracles but it's awfully easy to ruin your day too.

old97civic

Success!

I don't have a pressure or vacuum bleed setup, so got my wife to help with bleeding the brakes this afternoon. Only did the rears. Saw some bubbles, not too much.

Went to start it, no go. It hasn't run for I'm not sure exactly how many days, 2 weeks plus or minus a day? I think there was a lot of moisture/condensation in the engine and it took a lot of cranking (with the accelerator pedal all the way down to disable the injectors some of the time) to dry it out until it finally caught and came to life.

Drove around the block, came back to the driveway. Wife thought she saw a drip near the muffler. Park it back inside, take the wheel off to look: it was just water dripping from a small drain hole on the muffler. Put the wheel back on and went for a longer drive, testing the brakes out. Pedal feels as good as it was before. Glad I didn't need to get new calipers!

I've got a bit more to do but just minor stuff. I'm going to put some loom around the brakes lines in some areas where they might vibrate against each other. Because the Cu-Ni lines are so bendable the runs aren't as neat and tidy as the originals, so I want to add some buffer in places so they don't chafe against each other. Otherwise, the project is done!