old97civic

Most of the stuff I find when researching this points to pricy stainless braided hoses, geared to the "racing" mentality. I'm leaning toward a nylon line. I've identified the necessary fitting to go from nylon to the quick connect at the tank for the supply line, but not sure of what is at the filter end by the firewall. Since the part of the line by the filter is rust free, I was thinking of leaving a short length of it and getting a fitting to go from hard steel line to nylon. Only problem here is the common quick connects need some sort of "bubble" flare (on the steel line) for the plastic ring to hold on to (you can see this on the steel stub at the tank end), so need an adapter to go from nylon to steel, or even better something that can go from the nylon line directly to the filter. I've found 3 things that might work for the connection at the filter.

Here are the products I'm looking at:

Part #1: connection between new nylon line and existing steel line near filter:
Option 1A) Dorman 800-036
Compression to barb adapter (to adapt nylon to steel near the fuel filter):
http://www.dormanproducts.com/p-3043...origin=keyword

OR

Option 1B)
This is an adapter which is 5/16 compression for both steel AND nylon, it has an inner steel tube on one side inside the fitting for the nylon tube to be squeezed onto by the ferrule: (Dorman 800-135)
http://www.dormanproducts.com/p-1854...origin=keyword

OR

Option 1C) Adapter which looks similar to what is on the end of the existing fuel line at the filter end. Would be nice to eliminate an extra joint in the line, but not sure of the thread on it (I only know the filter is 14x1.5) so I'm leary of using this. (Dorman 800-030)
http://www.dormanproducts.com/p-2063...origin=keyword

Part #2: Connection from new nylon to existing stub at fuel tank (Dorman 800-080)
http://www.dormanproducts.com/p-1375...origin=keyword

Part #3: Nylon fuel line: (Dorman 800-071)
http://www.dormanproducts.com/p-1245...origin=keyword
(Note there is also 800-074 which is 25 ft instead of 10 ft; is 10 ft enough?)

Part #4: Vapour and return lines Gates 27002
For the return and vapour lines I'll use 1/4" fuel rubber hose, those should be easy.
http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo....=99812&jsn=331

Comments, especially for part #1?
Edit: fixed links

ezone

If it were mine, I'd probably just go with high pressure (reinforced) rubber fuel hose with triple stack of hose clamps on each end LOL.

old97civic

Ironically, I did look at that way, and with the absurdity of how things are sometimes priced here in Canada, it actually costs more to do with just hoses and clamps

Colin42

Tell us what parts you end up using, I need to do this on my girlfriends car

old97civic

Will do. Going to check all the sizes of the tubes on the car to make sure I order the right stuff.

I've also got a question in to Dorman about their #800-030 adapter (option 1C) which if it is M14-1.5, will connect directly to the inlet port on the fuel filter, which would allow me to have the new nylon line go straight to the filter. I'd rather have that than to leave a bit of the steel line and have a compression fitting to adapt from nylon to steel.

Colin42

Awesome much appreciated

old97civic

Update:

I got my response from Dorman about their item 800-030, they say it has a thread of M14-1.5, so I'm going with that to connect nylon direct to the filter. I verified 5/16" OD size of the fuel supply line on the car, everything else 1/4". This should be verified for any car someone is going to work on. It's easy to check the tube sizes at the front end (under the hood). To confirm the sizes at the tank, you'll have to remove the back seat. Not that you'd expect them to be different, but since I'm ordering everything I wanted to be sure of everything.

Next update will be when I get the stuff and actually install everything, so I'll report on any issues I might have. With shipping time and holidays approaching, this is likely to be pushed back to January.

Meanwhile, here's a good video I found. For the fuel supply line, this guy uses a ready made hose with AN fittings plus special adapter fittings to connect the ends, so that is a different approach than what I'm doing which is nylon all the way. Otherwise return and vapor lines will be the same, ie 1/4" rubber fuel hose. Overall the process is the same. Vid shows how to get the back seat out.

old97civic

Ok, so I've done the replacement of all 3 fuel lines.

I managed to use the materials that I got, but I did run into a few snags that I want to mention.

The hard part of the work was removing the old fuel lines. Especially at the front where they go in a tight space between the body and the subframe. I cut the horizontal sections as far up the bend as I could, then used lots of elbow grease to pull them up through the engine bay. You should remove the top half of the air filter box and the plastic intake air pipe that is attached. That will give much better access to the fuel filter and vapour canister underneath it.

I got everything I needed from RockAuto

First, the return and vapour lines. For these I used Gates 27002 fuel hose with 1/4" ID that came in a 25 foot roll. I tackled these 2 lines first and it went off without a hitch. I still had some hose left over after running both lines, about 4 feet or so.

The vapour line starts at the canister under the fuel filter and ends at the little tiny evap two-way valve, which is at the front left corner of the fuel tank. There is a plastic cover underneath it that has to be removed first. I just used regular hose clamps to secure the hose.

In my case the return line starts on the fuel rail between the first and second injectors (counting from driver's side). The line ends at the fuel tank. Again here I used regular hose clamps to secure the hose.

Now for the fun part, the supply line. All the issues I had for this job were for this line. Parts used were
Dorman 800-080; quick connects for 5/16" tubing (2-pack)
Dorman 800-071; 25 foot roll of 5/16" nylon tubing
Dorman 800-030; steel fitting with flared end and M14-1.5 tube nut to connect nylon tubing directly to fuel filter (2-pack)

Issues were:
1) The nylon tubing is somewhat stiff, so it is difficult to get it to stretch onto the nylon quick connect fitting. I ended up putting it in boiling water for about 30 seconds, and I was able to get it onto the steel fitting, but not the nylon fitting. (the barbs on the nylon fitting are bigger diameter than on the steel fitting). What I ended up doing was once I figured out the length of the line, which was 11 ft for me (97 DX coupe), I took the steel fitting off, reheated the end of the tube in hot water and then put it onto the nylon fitting. I managed to push it all the way in. No clamp is necessary, it's on there for good.

2) The tube nut that comes with the Dorman 800-030 will thread into the filter as it is the correct thread, but it is shorter than the OE tube nut which is on the original steel fuel line. See the photos. Comparing the new and old nut, I wasn't sure if the hex of the new nut would bottom out on the filter before it was compressing the flare against the filter, so I reused the old nut. I put a hose clamp on the nylon over this fitting for good measure.



3) At the fuel tank end, the steel line that connects to the fuel pump had a lot of rust on it, which made it hard to remove the clip that the quick connect fitting clips onto. The new quick connect fittings come with these clips anyway so it doesn't matter if you wreck the old one taking it out. When I first went to push the new nylon line onto the steel stub, I could not get the fitting to click which is how you know it is in all the way and locked in place. I found that using some fine sandpaper or emery cloth to remove the majority of the rust made big difference in allowing the clip to function properly. Then when I reconnected the new nylon line onto it I was able to get it to click.

4) The nylon tubing, in addition to being hard to stretch over the nylon fittings, is stiff and wants to retain its coiled up shape. It is also prone to kinking and buckling if you try to bend it in too tight a bend, so watch out for that. Let the tube take its natural shape as much as possible.

After doing all that, I turned the ignition to ON (without starting the engine) and back to OFF a few times to let the pump prime the system again. After a few times I could tell the sound was different, it was probably at the point where the lines were full and system was now under a bit of pressure. I checked the connections, no problem at the tank end. At the filter end, I did have a bit of a leak. Not between the nylon hose and the steel fitting, but from where the fitting connects to the filter. Tightened a bit more until it stopped leaking. Flare nut wrenches are great here.

Colin42

Thank you for doing this and doing such a good job of writing it up with pictures!
Now I'll have to order these parts and change the lines on the girlfriends car

Edit:

So you managed to do this without dropping the tank? That's good to know, I'll be replacing the straps on mine anyways though

old97civic

You're welcome. I get a lot of help out of finding posts like this so I figure when I get something done that works, it's good to document as it could help others.

Yes I did this with the tank in place. If you watch that video I linked in a previous post, all the connection points are there except the 2-way valve which is at the front left of the fuel tank. Once you remove the plastic cover it'll be obvious. There are also 2 brake lines running along the plastic tray under the car and at the front of the fuel tank they split up and go to each rear wheel. I changed those brake lines just over a year ago. The space at the back wasn't too bad to deal with, I found it trickier to thread the lines through at the front where they go between the subframe and body. For me I fed the return line line from the top down through the access cover on the seat, and I grabbed it with some needle nose pliers from below. At the front I used a scrap of 14/2 cable to fish it through the gap. I put the cable through until I could see it below, zip tied the hose to it, and pulled it up. Similarly for the vapour line, except that one starts at the two-way valve. For the supply line I ended up starting at the front and feeding it up from underneath. I tried starting from above but found that the nylon line would get coiled up and stuck in the tight space between the fuel tank and the body and it seemed it would kink if I kept going, so I stopped that. I fed it from the front through the body/subframe gap, then up the space at the back, and after a bit of wiggling it around and looking through the access opening, I could see it from above and pull. You'll be going in and out of the car a bunch of times. It is somewhat awkward to connect the supply line at the tank. Even though the opening is fairly big, the supply line connection is almost at the front edge, so you can't get a whole lot of grip on the fitting as you push it on.

A couple of other things:

If you're ordering from RockAuto, there's something I noticed with their online catalog.

eg, for the fuel hose and nylon tubing, they give you options like {25} or {1}, where the number in the curly braces means 'comes in a pack of {x}'. It was a bit confusing sorting it out. Make sure you're not ordering 25 rolls of 25 ft! But you'd know from the price that something is wrong. More importantly though, is that for some of the items, if you choose one way vs the other, you get a separate shipping charge, meaning it comes from a different warehouse than other items in your order. I managed to get all the items from the same place, everything for $85 CDN taxes and shipping included.

The other thing I wanted to mention, is if I had to do this again, I think I would go for high pressure hose for the supply line instead of the nylon. Because of its stiffness, I found it difficult to work with. Not impossible (I managed to do it!) but a bit of a PITA. Too late for me, but I did some research and there is Gates 27340 (Gates Barricade MPI) which is rated for pressure application.

http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo....546538&jsn=296

It is more expensive than nylon (about 3x), but for this hose you can order by the foot on RockAuto, and you would not need the nylon fitting (800-080) or the steel fitting (800-030). You'd just be buying 2 different rolls of hose, and finding some hose clamps. At the pump end you'd just slip it over the steel stub and secure with a clamp or two, and at the filter end you'd leave some of the original steel line and the nut, and clamp the hose to the steel line. It would be much faster and easier IMO.

The catch for the pressure hose option is you have to be certain of the length you need. You don't want to be short, but also don't want to order too much as it is pricier than the nylon. For me my supply line was 11 ft with a few inches of slack, so if you ordered a few extra feet, you'd be set. (I just measured my leftover nylon tubing and it is 14 feet so I'm sure of my supply line length). Again for me it is a 97 coupe. Just another option for you.

Colin42

Perfect, thank you for the the tips.

Yeah the multiple warehouse thing is a bit of a pain, but I have some other things I'm ordering anyways, so not a huge deal.

If the car was already safetied I would just do rubber for the feed as well, but I have to make sure it passes without any headaches. I did confirm with the mechanic that he would be ok with the two rubber lines and one nylon.

What part of Canada are you in? If you're ever near Barrie, or Midland/Penetang beer is on me

old97civic

I'm in the GTA, our weather is similar, no wonder our cars are in rough shape lol.

Oh, I see so the fuel lines are part of a larger job to get the car safetied. That Barricade MPI hose is rated for 225 psi, well in excess of any pressure put out by the fuel pump, but if the mechanic won't accept it I guess you have to go nylon. It's actually good stuff, but it was cumbersome to work with compared to the hose. You gotta do what you gotta do.

I'm not 100% sure but it seems nylon is used as OEM on some domestic makes. Makes sense given how harsh winter driving is here.

Colin42

Yeah the body is actually pretty solid, the fuel lines are the biggest fix needed on the car. It was $500 and it has 378,xxx kms on it but the engine and auto trans are really good, the tranny shifts like its still brand new.

The mechanic might accept if I did 3 rubber lines but he seemed alot happier when I said the feed line would be nylon. I don't mind some extra fiddling around if it means less hassle for the safety.

Nylon lines are standard for most cars in the last 10 years or so I think. Makes way more sense especially in places with winter

ezone

More like 25-30 years? IIRC GM was using it in the very late 80s if not earlier.

Colin42

You would have a way better idea than I would

There's not too many 90's vintage or earlier cars driving around up here.
Most of what I work on is 2000s and up

old97civic

Just a quick follow-up:

Not regarding the fuel lines themselves, but a cautionary note about fuel spills. I recommend you remove the floor mats and protect the carpeting while you do the work. You might step in spilled fuel on your floor at some point and track it into the car (like me). Almost 2 weeks later for me and I still get a faint smell when I get into the car. I did check all the connections to be sure there are no leaks, all is good. It doesn't take much fuel to stink up the whole cabin, lol. It will eventually dissipate, just have to be patient, but even better if you can avoid it altogether.

Colin42

So today I got the feed and return line finished on my girlfriend's 99 sedan. I used all the same parts as you did, but I'm going to use the dorman line nut because the fitting does bottom out when you run in the nut, so we'll have to see if there's any leaks once I fire it up. It looks like they changed the vapour line in 99 though. Its some monsterous metal line that actually had holes in it from being so rotten. And the line broke off at the plastic fitting by the tank it was so bad. So I need to buy some different line. And you were right, getting that nylon quick connect fitting on was a bastard.

Jp7

iTrader: (2)

I was looking to replace the fuel lines in my 2000 ex sedan. I found a set of 3 OEM honda lines, the feed, vapor and return. Has anyone done this with the car on a hoist without removing the subframes? I have a hoist at my house.

Colin42

You're going to have a hell of a time trying to fish those between the body in the subframe, if you dont pull it.
Have you already bought them? Can you return them?
Way easier to do the rubber and the nylon
And way cheaper

Jp7

iTrader: (2)

No I haven't bought them but cost really isn't much of a thing to me. I have 4 cars and this is just a winter car to put miles on. I don't want to pull the subframe, I just got an alignment done because I swapped out the old steering rack which was leaking bad. I don't like the idea of zip-ties and wishy wash methods of constraining the fuel lines to the body.

I wanted to add, my EVAP line is in rough shape too- I wanted to do all 3 lines. I don't even see an aftermarket option for the evap line. It's much thicker.

Colin42

If you're not going to pull the subframe then don't buy the premade lines you won't be able to fish them through that gap.
There are other methods you can use to hold the lines up besides zipties, I used zip ties and they're holding up just fine 2 years later.

You just run another length of rubber line, i used brass fittings to jump up from the small rubber line to the large evap fittings. worked like a charm, no check engine light.

TS2008

@Colin42

Hey buddy. My Honda civic has the same year of your gf's car. My civic has also a pipe tube for the vent. As for the supply fuel line, could you confirm the OD is still 5/16 ? thx

Colin42

yep it's 5/16" i ordered the parts old97civic listed in the first post from rockauto, they all worked.
However with the '99 and probably '00 as well having that monstrous evap line i used the 1/4" rubber hose with brass plumbing fittings to jump up to the 5/8" fittings on the car. No check engine lights.

TS2008

I'm not going to invest too much into the fuel line. I'm planning to cut all the rotted parts (especially the supply line) and use compression fitting to connect them back together. This is the reason why I want to make sure the exact OD diameter before buying the compression fitting. And thx for the info again.

Colin42

once you pull off all that plastic that supports the fuel lines you're probably going to find that it's all rotten in there as well, just bite the bullet and replace all of the lines,
it doesn't take that long. it's like $100 cdn in parts to do all 3 lines. if you did rubber instead of nylon for the feed you could probably do it even cheaper
this car wasn't leaking gas and when i removed the old lines they snapped like twigs they were so weak and rotten
compression fittings don't sound like a good idea.

old97civic

+1 for doing complete fuel lines. Your lines are probably in worse shape than you think.

Also, the 2 rear brake lines run in the same tray. If they are at all iffy, now would be the time to do them, from the engine bay all the way to the wheel cylinders (or calipers depending on what you have). Flexible copper-nickel tubing is an easy material to work with for that job.

TS2008

Yeah... you both are right. The brake lines and the fuel lines in the plastic covers are all rotten.

Jp7

iTrader: (2)

https://www.linestogo.com/honda-civi...fl1105-1b-set/

It looks like these have an end that will fish through the end of the subframe and then a flexible hose just goes up along the firewall. Has anyone tried the lines they sell here?

Colin42

Fancy, and expensive.
I can't remember how I ran the lines. I think I was able to sneak it between the body and the sub frame, just maybe not in exactly the same area as the OEM line

ezone

Premade brake lines can both be simpler and yet suck donkeyballs at the same time......because you usually start seriously thinking the rest of the car was assembled AFTER those lines were installed under the floor.
Drop the K frame to run lines up and across the firewall from underneath? You're trying to do this on your back in the driveway? Craptacular.

I'd probably just get a roll of the right size CuNi brake line (and necessary tools) and fabricate/bend/flare whatever, however I need the metal brake lines to be.



Not sure how I'd repair fuel lines if it were my own car though. I have ideas but some might not be considered professional LOL