Wankenstein

1998 Civic EX coupe. A/T, 170k miles

I've recently replaced HVAC: clutch coil, condenser fan, blower motor, and vent control motor. A/C is running well however, for the past few days when I shut the engine off while a/c is running there is a sound that last for about 20 seconds. It's eminating near the blower motor and it sounds similar to a slow,steady pressure release (hiss). According to this read it's a normal, good sound: http://www.youfixcars.com/air-conditioning-noises.html Is the expansion valve near the blower motor?

Question for Ezone:
I recently helped my friend with his 2004 VW Passat (B5.5) 6 cylinder 2.8L.
It has a crank but no start issue. On his own he checked the fuel pump (beneath back seat and door accessable). He said he can hear it prime and he removed it and tested it with a 12v source and it pumped. I checked spark and all coils/plugs are working very well. Air filter is clean, TB is clean. I did a compression test with all plugs removed and could smell gas. We removed fuel lines where they attach to the fuel rail, cranked engine and no fuel seen.

Side note: fuel rail has a pressure regulator. Spark plugs were not fouled, weren't wet and normal appearance.
He said the pump is under the backseat and the float is further back.

Is it possible to have a fully clogged fuel fiter (underneath car between fuel pump and engine)?

Could it be that the pump is working but has very weak fuel pressure?

Possible tear in internal fuel pump hose (shown in pics)? Related thread: http://www.passatworld.com/forums/b5...em-b5-5-a.html

ezone

Hiss should just be system pressures slowly equalizing through the expansion valve and compressor after the system is shut off. Normal and expected. Some cars will make noise for like more than 10 minutes after shutoff.


==========================

VW.... no idea.... I don't ever want to touch a European car again in real life.

Check closer, the system may use a suction jet pump if there is a hump in the center of the tank for exhaust and/or a driveshaft to pass through.
If the suction jet pump fails to transfer fuel from the gauge side to the pump side, the engine could stall due to lack of fuel even though the gauge shows 1/4 full, because the side of the tank holding the main fuel pump is empty.

ezone

Yes to all, and each could be diagnosed...checked if good or bad...
Got a pressure gauge?


Back in my Audi days of long ago....their fuel pumps were LOUD. If you heard a pump that was too quiet and the engine didn't run, it was probably out of gas LOL





Will the engine fire up on carb spray?

Wankenstein

Thanks Ezone. Yes I have a FP gauge and I hooked it up just before the fuel rail and it read zero pressure. Removed it, held bucket to catch fuel and no gas at all in both fuel lines when cranking engine

I didn't try carb spray.
The TB is facing and about 5 inches from firewall..makes it tough to clean without removing it.

He's said he's going to change the fuel filter and inspect the internal, accordion style hose on the fuel pump sometime this weekend. Used pumps are only $20 at local U-pull junkyard or $35 already pulled so it should be a cheap fix..hopefully.

ezone

One post says the pump did move fluid when ran manually? Put the pressure gauge directly on the outlet that would be on top of the tank, see if the pump can build good pressure right there, or if it pees out the side of a split hose.

If it can build pressure then move up the system, if it has an inline filter check there next.

Crushed line under the body from an impact?

Wankenstein

Will do.

Possibly, he hasn't said anything about an impact. Will see him today and ask him to check.

Wankenstein

I stopped by my friend's place to borrow a 16 lb sledge hammer and hand-tamper for an upcoming patio paver project. He replaced the fuel filter yesterday and it wouldn't start but, we could smell gas at engine. He loosened one of the two incoming fuel lines that connect to the fuel rail and fuel gushed out at a good rate. He said the oil pressure light is coming on which it didn't do up until yesterday after he replaced the fuel filter. I connected my scan tool and it read two codes. When I connected the scan tool last Monday no codes were present:

P0444: http://repairpal.com/obd-ii-code-P0444
P0104: http://repairpal.com/obd-ii-code-p0104

Last Monday I was cranking it for spark and compression test without the intake hose (that includes MAF sensor and the Purge Control Valve) connected and I think that may have caused those codes and may have put it in a partial limp mode (low oil pressure) He did an ECU reset after I left and I didn't leave my code reader with him so, it may or may not have solved those two codes. He did try to start the engine afterwards and it didn't start. Apparently, disconnecting the battery can also cause a throttle body misalignment: http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index...Alignment_(TBA) He hasn't tried the reset listed, yet.

My other thought is that now the engine is getting fuel it is (possibly) renewing the issue why the engine stop running initially. That is, an oil pressure issue can stop the engine as a fail-safe. However, he doesn't recall seeing the low oil pressure light on at the time it initially stopped running. Currently, the oil is at the proper "full" level.

On Monday we replaced the ECT as it was cheap to do ($10) and came up in several threads as a source for a crank but no start issue. I mention it just in case it could be related to or have an effect on the CEL codes listed above.. though I don't think it is.

ezone

P0104 may keep it from running if it is a real issue, the other probably won't. Erase codes, Attempt to start and recheck codes?

Oil pressure idiot light (usually the gravy boat light) I would expect to stay on if the engine is not running. Cranking may build some pressure to turn the light off but it should turn on again in a few seconds. Wait, that's a German car. It may not do what anyone expects.

Wankenstein

I told him to purchase a can of MAF cleaner spray and watch a vid on MAF sensor cleaning. I also told him to use Carb + TB cleaner or starting fluid spray in the TB on next startup.

This link confirms your statement: http://www.passatworld.com/forums/b5...e-message.html
"Yes, if you crank the car long enough without starting, you will get the . "

The EPC (Engine Power Control) light is on too during cranking. Some responses in this thread: http://www.passatworld.com/forums/b5...ght-comes.html state that the engine speed sensor (a.k.a. crank sensor) is the most likely cause. He said that initially the engine just cut out and wouldn't restart (and still hasn't).

ezone

Dude, I have zero intimate knowledge of the inner workings of any European cars these days. My work has been 99.99% Hondas since 2003.

That said...I'd totally try just unplugging the MAF to see if it will run without it. Most manufacturers (certainly not all) have a backup plan or failsafe or limp mode if one of the major input sensors fails completely.

CKP though, probably no backup unless there are two of them.

Wiring insulation disintegrating?

Wankenstein

The Ezone I know doesn't back away from a challenge. He says bring on your over-priced, questionably engineered Teutonic turd-mobile and I'll get her running like Usain Bolt.

ezone

Yyyeeeeaaah. Anymore, that usually comes to a screeching halt the moment the job stops looking like it could be a profitable venture.

Wankenstein

I hear ya. My friend has helped me out a few times with electrical work (his knowledge/experience is well beyond mine) and this is my chance to help him out.

On some repairs it get's limiting without proper diagnostic software... at least it takes longer anyway. He purchased a service manual and plans to test fuel pressure just before fuel rail. I told him to check/test for fuel injector relay/fuse (if it has one). Other than listening to fuel injector pulse what is the best method to check the injectors are spraying into the cylinders?

I also have concern for the fuel regulator as from what I read they are known to fail on these engines. This is a description I read concerning fuel regulator function:

"The Fuel Pressure Regulator is a must have item for any EFI system, without it, the fuel rail will not be able to build up enough pressure to support the injectors with the sufficient amount of fuel, the fuel will instead flow straight trough and not reach the injectors"

This link describes testing: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...Regulator-test

I sent him a link to follow along with thread. I also advised him to join a Passat forum and ask questions there. Besides the two things lsited above I advised him to

1) Clean MAF sensor
2) Trickle charge battery overnight with + and - cables removed
3) Spray TB cleaner in TB prior to starting

Any other suggestions (other than don't buy German or American cars)?

ezone

Depends on what you have to work with. I usually find the starter cranking makes far louder than injectors clicking....

I might verify power plus ground pulse for injectors using a noid light or LED test light.
Actual spray, I'd want to be pretty sure I'm on the right path before wasting a lot of time pulling an injector rail out just to see if they spray.

GM gives scanner actuation for some injectors, connect a pressure gauge to the rail and you have a damn fast and convenient way to verify all injectors spray roughly the same amount of fuel (volume). Too bad other manufacturers don't all think this way.
There are several ways some of these can fail. Design and placement have a lot to do with some of the effects you may notice in a failure.

I've seen some certain pressure regulators rupture allowing fuel to enter the vacuum line, causing a rich condition, hard start with missing and black smoke, or just plain flooding the engine with raw gas.

Some regulators are known to stick and not vary pressure correctly with changes in manifold vacuum.
Some failures just flat give completely wrong pressure, far too low or high.


Drop back 40 and punt?

Wankenstein

So, for most DIY' ers.. after confirming injector pulse is good, the only way to check injector spray pattern and strength is to remove the injector(s), start crank engine, watch spray?

Speaking of injector spray:

My son's Mazda 3 has a P0303 cylinder #3 misfire.
1) Performed a power balance check and removing coil pack connection did not effect engine idle.
2) Replaced coil pack connection and removed #3 fuel injector harness connection. Before I removed the injector connection I can feel (thumb & finger on injector/harness location) and hear the #3 injector pulsing. After removing FI connection it did not effect idle (expected).
3) Swapped coil pack: no change.
4) Replaced spark plug with new one: no change.
5) Performed dry compression test: cylinders 1,2,4 = 158 psi. Cylinder 3 = 140 (within tolerance)

Yet to perform is a) fuel injector swap and b) spray intake area with water to rule out an intake gasket leak
If, either of those aren't causing the misfire then is there any other cause besides an intake or exhaust valve leak or head gasket breach?

Recent history:
My son wrecked the car in February..cracked block and other damage but, repairable. Brought it to a mechanic/body shop who used up 26 days of 30 day salvaged (Mazda 2.3L) engine warranty working on car. High oil consumption not realized until one day after warranty expired. One month later engine developed rod knock.
Next up.. modified engine swap (by local mechanic): Ford 2.5L (50k miles) swapped into Mazda 2.3L with a few parts swapped from 2.3 to 2.5 and the purchase of a TB adapter. Engine overheats two months later and head gasket blown. I am pretty sure the head gasket was leaking before installation... just didn't show itself until overheat situation.

Same mechanic replaced head gasket + accessory gasket kit, water pump, thermostat. The mechanic brought the cylinder head to a machine shop and he told us it needed resurfacing and two exhaust valves and one intake valve was leaking. he also said the valves seals will be replaced. The mechanic would not give me the name, phone number or address of the machine shop and said the he (mechanic) is responsible for both his labor and the labor + parts of the machine shop. On our receipt I had him list all parts, length of warranty (12 months or 12K miles) and he is responsible for machine shop's work. He signed it, initialed it and it's on his company's letter head receipt.
I found it very odd he won't reveal the machine shop and for all I know (unless I press for a machine shop invoice) he may not have brought to a machine shop at all and just sanded the head himself and never touched the valves.

I blame myself in a way because I should have performed the repair myself. I did offer but, my son thought it would get done faster and done correctly by this mechanic. My son has paid for all repairs since the accident.

I am trying to rule out as much as possible related to the cylinder misfire because if I need to bring it back to him I don't want him to have any way out of it. If, it's all narrowed down to a valve or head gasket leak should I demand a leak-down test while I watch?

And furthermore (lol):
The engine also has an oil leak that he can't seem to track down. He replaced the rear main seal and oil pan seal on the initial install. He had the engine out again for the head gasket replacement and replaced the valve gasket, SP grommets, timing cover (RTV), and other seals. While the engine was out for the head gasket replacement I told him that oil was leaking and it's likely the rear main seal. Wether he remembered to check or didn't care I can't say but it's still leaking. My son brought it to Firestone for an oil change a month after the HG repair and the Firestone mechanic cleaned off the engine and inspected it for oil leaks. The Firestone mechanic said it seems to be a rear main seal.

Also:
When my son brought the car in for the HG replacement the A/C was working. When we test drove it after the HG replacement it was not working. When we asked him about he said it went out the day before when he was test driving it. He checked it with gauges and said it's the expansion valve ($30 part) but, he didn't bother to fix it. I also noticed a schrader valve cap missing a couple days ago... not sure if that matters or not?
My son said a few weeks ago that he mistakenly turned on the a/c and within a few minutes he heard a loud squeal and smelled burnt rubber. So, now hoping there isn't compressor damage. My son is in college living an hour and half away from me and the mechanic's shop. Seems like between my schedule and his we rarely have time to diagnose or work on his car.

Ezone: Sorry about the novel I just wrote but, hoping to get your opinion on misfire detection and how to proceed with this mechanic.

ezone

Lunch break, TL;DR
May try again later.
Only at idle? Only loaded? ALL RPMs and loads?

Wankenstein

Okay. Enjoy your lunch.

Wow... just when I think I know a little bit of something I am reminded I know even less. I never knew there's a difference between misfires at idle, under load and at various RMP's. I just read this: http://www.autotap.com/techlibrary/a...n_misfires.asp and now I'm more informed.

We only checked at idle and only have a very basic code reader.
My son called me an hour ago and said the CEL light is now off. He read codes again and now the P0303 is gone but, it's reading a P0300 random misfire code. When we swapped coils we didn't swap them back so, not sure if that has anything to do with it ( if coil is faulty).

After the 2.5L was installed and before the head gasket replacement the fuel pump quit working. My son and I replaced it with a used one, It keeps the engine running but, we never checked fuel pressure. It also has two evap codes that weren't present before we replaced the fuel pump. They may be due to how tight or not tight enough we got the fuel pump lid on. I was very concerned I was going to strip the plastic cap threads if I kept tightening it. We have been told by a guy on a Mazda 3 forum that those codes should eventually dissapear once the ECU gets used to new (used) pump and accepts it as normal.

ezone

3 is more than 10% lower than the others. Why?
Lower compression on that one cylinder is still indicative of a problem that should be investigated further.
Did you do your comp test the same way I do mine?


Swap injectors, see if miss moves. Swap coils. Swap plugs. Make sure electricals are in fact good to inj and coil on dead cylinder.
If swapping external parts changes nothing, it's (almost) gotta be an internal problem, and you say the mechanic is responsible for that with warranty.


Oil leak, rear main, check diagrams and see if there is a seal carrier (holder) that is bolted to the back of the block with its own gasket or seal.

I really don't know squat about the engine myself. Really.


Yeah, no.

Wankenstein

I've read it's 20% .. unless, every manufacturer is different.


I did it the Ezone way


ok. I might rent a noid light too. A guy on Mazda 3 forum recently did a write up and video on fuel pressure testing. Posted below. My son said it intermittently hesitates on after cold start.

Hopefully, I can find a good diagram.

ezone

[QUOTE=turd_ferguson;4714962]I've read it's 20% .. unless, every manufacturer is different.That's so 1970s.

Misfire codes can set in with 10% difference these days. Maybe even less.



I'm expecting my royalty check in the mail.


A small low watt 12v light bulb can be sufficient. Take a #194 bulb and unbend its wires out and stick them into the socket terminals and see if it flashes during cranking. A smaller wattage 12v bulb would probably be a little brighter, but the 194 is dang common easy to find.
It will flash fairly dimly and quickly because the pulse to the injector is very short, so you may need to watch it closely.

Just a thought.

Wankenstein

Are you saying the internet has misinformation?

Side note:
Before the mechanic started on the head gasket I asked him if there's a way to rule out a possible compression ring issue. He said not if the head gasket is leaking compression. I then said what about a dry and wet compression test or leak-down test. He did do a dry compression test and after work was completed wrote "low compression" on reciept. He didn't do a wet compression test or a leakdown. I told him (before replacing head gasket) it would be pointless to replace head gasket if compression ring(s) issue cannot be ruled out first. He just insisted it's the head gasket that's causing compression loss. Of course, he later tells me while the head is at the machine shop (supposedly) that is has valve leaks.

So, being that it should be with 10% then maybe it does have a compression ring leak: wet compression test in order? Or tests shown at 13:05 mark in video below.

Check is in the mail..lol

You should charge. Instead of Just Answer.. you could name your site Just Ezone.

Very useful, inexpensive tester. Thanks.

ezone

^Jay is a respected member of a professional forum I am also a member of.

Jay has worked for Honeywell for quite a while. I have posted a couple other videos of his....I know I've posted in an oil and/or filter thread.

Wankenstein

It's a very informative video. I've seen a few of his videos and they are just as good.