TS2008

Hi all


2000 Civic DX auto.


I noticed, few days ago, one of the tires (front, driver side) in my civic has inner excessive wear (photos). I did some searches and all indicate this was caused by excessive camber or less likely wrong toe.


So what can cause excessive camber in a Honda Civic ? And is there a way adjusting the Camber ?


Please don't suggest me to have an appointment with a mechanic for an alignment. It's always hit or miss with them (mostly miss). This time I will try to fix the alignment myself before to go to see them.

ezone

Stock suspension, not lowered or anything?
Does the car pull to one side?

What's the current camber reading on each corner?
What's the specification and allowable range for camber, front and rear?
What's the toe at now, front and rear?

Most of the cars are set up with some negative camber, you should be able to see that in the specs. Ideally camber would be very close to the same on left and right of each axle.
Toe 'out' beyond ideal spec can aggravate inner edge wear.

UCA pivots loose or worn? BJ's worn?

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

my front tires on another car non-civic were goners due to alignment knocked off (I ran slightly toe-out for autoX racing reasons, but when it was knocked out, well, it went even further out. My tires looked like yours in two week time after they went off. Did not notice because it happens on the inside and did not see the inside, until i parked with wheels turned...

all toe out need to kill a tire is a few days.

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

camber takes months to years and you would be able to visually tell they are off. So, your judgment that it's camber, not toe is actually off, as likely is your alignment...

TS2008

The car is bone stock. I bought it last year from a retired lady.
The original wheel cap of this tire was damaged. So I assume the lady had hit something with the tire (probably a side walk or potholes ).
The four tires have approx. 18K miles


I don't have any data about the alignment but the other three tires have very uniform wear.


I'm suspecting the Camber because the tire of the passenger side is fine.
If the wear was caused by the toe "out", both tires should have the same wear patterns.


I shook all four wheels and there is no loose or play. The suspension of the front driver side has however half inch shorter than the passenger side


What is odd is the car steer lightly left in the highway but the wear patterns of this tire indicates an excessive negative camber.


For now I want to gather much info I can and fix everything need to be fixe before going to a mechanic. I don't want them to bullshit me or trying to rip me off

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

what do you mean? is it lower in that corner? also, do it look like heavily cambered? I can't see your car from here. commonly, people look how much gap there is tire to fender for that. (considering the fender is "straight")

also, did you go under the car? just shaking the wheels is far from enough.

RIPSAW

My 07 has the original rear upper control arms that give it an excess amount of chamber. You can see it. The tires were about 1/4 way warn out when I got car used. Was not really watching since grand son drives it and was caught off guard when the inspector noticed the belts were showing on the inner rears after about 15K more of miles.
I replace all 4 tires and the maintenance warranty at Cosco is 5000K rotation. I also picked up the later model control arms off ebay. However I never put them on.

With proper rotation, they are wearing even now. Both me and the mechanic have checked them. He has a fancy dial depth gage.
My grandson is pretty aggressive and his outside corner wear and rotation may be why I have not had to put them on.

My experience with tires is once they get uneven, it's pretty hard to correct it and they also tend to pull since it's like rolling a funnel.

Get 4 quality new tires , a supension inspection and a alignment at a Honda dealer and start over. See all those small age cracks. Those tires are old, dangerious and worn out

ezone

Many of us can "see" when a tire is not standing perfectly perpendicular to the road, or at least be able to tell if one tire leans more than the rest.
Can you? Does that one lean more than the others?


Why is one corner low? Broken spring? Mismatched tire or wrong size?

TS2008

Today, I made a "cross" between the wheel nuts for locating the center of the wheel. And then I measure vertically the length between the center of the wheel and the fender. The driver side is 1/2 to 3/4 inch shorter.


It's hard to see the difference with naked eyes. I'm building now a basic tool similar to this for measuring the camber.
http://www.andrewc.org.uk/tvrgit/20091127_04.JPG


The four tires are all same brand and model.


I don't notice any damage in the spring. But I'll probably change both the spring and the strut next sale anyway.


Now I'm also trying to find out how to compare the upper and lower control arms of both side.

ezone

I was thinking a carpenters bubble level to find true vertical, but a plumb bob works too.

TS2008

Excellent idea! I'm thinking about the electronic level from my tablet. I already use the app few times and it seems pretty accurate. I also need to find a flat and leveled ground for measuring the camber.

ezone

You dang kids and your toys

*checks smartphone apps*

True.

TS2008

LOL, the good news is I'm not infected by Pokémon Go "yet".

ezone

TS2008

I'm confused. I checked the camber angle with my homemade tool. The driver side has 1 deg more positive than the passenger side.


I expected the camber of the driver side has more negative angle because of tire wear pattern. But now I run out of ideas.

RIPSAW

Appears wear is on outside. Positive Camber or corner wear is what it appears on tire. My 07 actually was made with too much negative camber..Degree or more then spec in book. It can cause the inside to wear. However, it takes a whole lot to do that since most people drive aggressive enough that outside is the problem. Also roads are usually to right to drain.

Of course I misread you post and did not realize I am looking at your tire from wrong direction.

Make you a trammel. I used an old garage door track. Bolted two uprights on it and on these used two pieces of thick vinyl . Now jack car and take a piece of kids 1" chalk and make a line around tire. Take a scribe and a piece of 4x4 with a V-slot cut into it. Have some spin tire and cut a sharp narrow scribe line around both tires. Drop the car and jack under each wheel to make sure it's back level on ground. Now slide your trammel under back side and make a mark on the plate were the scribe lines are.
Carefully bring it to the front. You car should be the same or just a hair width toe in in the front.
Check the back also. Not sure what the back should be. Ezone can tell you. Also make sure there is no play in front by pushing hard and watching joints for movement.

ezone

How far from zero (straight up and down) is each side?


Positive camber would mean the top of the tire is leaning outward.
Negative means leaning in at the top.

If you have a full degree difference in camber between left and right fronts, it probably pulls to the most positive side.....assuming caster is equal on each side.
(You can't measure caster though, that can affect pulling too.)


Adjustable upper control arms?

Was that tire worn on the inboard edge?
How long had it been on that corner?
Had it worn the edge some prior to being rotated to the front?

Toe out can eat the inboard edges in a hurry, much quicker than camber.


Post your alignment printout when you get it done.

ezone

Front toe +1mm, +/-2mm
Rear toe spec is +2mm, +2mm/-1mm

Front camber spec 0*, +/-1*
Rear camber spec -1*, +/-1*

Caster, 1*40', +/-1*. I don't care much about the spec here, my main concern is they are fairly even.



Alignment person should (hopefully) check SAI/IA, if these aren't fairly even side to side it could mean there is something out of place, ball joint isn't located in the right place or something (bent suspension)

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

lower, but positive camber? likely something is bent... when it bent, the toe goes bye-bye since the tierods will push

TS2008

I understand exactly what do mean about the camber. This is the reason why I'm confused. Because the tire wear pattern doesn't match with the camber. The passenger side is near zero -0.2 to -0.4 deg. The driver side is 1.0 to 1.4 deg.

I verified the upper control arm. It's a stock one. this means it's not adjustable.


I had messed around with the tie rod this evening before went to night shift work. I did an half turn the tie rod in order to increase the toe in. The car is now more steady on a highway. I doubt the tire wear pattern is caused by the toe out because the wear pattern of passenger side is very uniform.


Anyway is not big deal. The car is a beater. Next step, I'm going to rotate the tires to see the results. Also I will probably replace the suspension when the quick strut will be on sale next time. But I don't want to spend too much time and money on it.


Thanks you all for the helps. Very appreciated

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

toe can be off on one side only, especially if it hit something, which seem likely from the camber being positive, even if the corner is lower than the other...