rekomstop209

Hey I'm back. After sucking it up and spending over $1000 on a HG replacement to solve my strange overheating, I now have a NEW PROBLEM. I've only had the car back for a week, and it has been running great, until tonight.

I have a 99 Civic EX, SOHC D16Y8 series, 102k miles.

I got off the freeway and was going about 40 mph when suddenly, it was like my car lost all power and flooring the gas pedal did absolutely nothing, but the was engine was still running. I took my foot completely off the pedal and then I got power back. I stopped at a friends who happened to be about a mile from there. The car gave me no problems on the way to his house.

The car sat for maybe 2 hours, started right up, I drove it about 3 miles through the city and the same thing happened again, but the car regained power. I drove it about another 1 1/2 miles and then it lost power again, but this time, never regained. I coasted to a stop on the side of the road and when I came to a stop the engine grumbled very loudly and then died.

I tried to restart the car but it only half-*** started and died. I primed the gas pedal and tried again. It half-*** started again and then died. Tried again, but now the engine just turns and turns and won't start at all.
I turned the key on all the way without starting it and I CAN hear the fuel pump engaging. I looked through the tiny window behind my timing belt cover and I can see the timing belt is still intact.

The CEL is not on. However, the CEL doesn't even come on when I turn the key all the way, not even for a couple seconds, but I'm not sure if that is supposed to happen in my car, but I'm pretty sure I've seen that happen in other cars.

This is a list of all the parts that have been replaced recently:

Timing belt/water pump - 7000 miles ago
Fuel filter - 1500 miles ago
Thermostat/Radiator/ECT Sensor - 500 miles ago
Head Gasket/Intake Gasket/Exhaust Gasket/Valve Cover Gasket/ Cylinder head was milled - 100 miles ago


What are some possibilities as to what could be going wrong/broken?

rekomstop209

Update:

I pulled a spark plug wire, stuck a screw driver in it and turned the key while having someone hold the screwdriver above a bolt on the frame, and there was no arcing at all.

Pulled D cap and rotor, I tried to test the coil terminals with an ohmmeter but kept getting very weird readings. The specs say under 25000 ohms is a pass, but i kept seeing things like 17.8 between the two main terminals and 13.4 between primary and secondary terminals, and sometimes it would show nothing at all or just say 0.1

Maybe I just don't know how to read the ohmmeter correctly.

At any rate, I'll just have it towed and get the ecu scanned for codes, but I think I can safely say its ignition/electrical related.

ezone

If you have no spark, you were in the right area to pull the dist cap and check the coil, but you need to actually check for a couple other things:

Does the coil have battery voltage to it? If no, then look for blown fuses. This could be why the CEL doesn't light up too.

If you have battery voltage at the coil, then check for sparks out of the coil ......

(Make sure the rotor is turning when you crank it--if not, then the timing belt is probably gone)

........Then check spark by holding a grounded wire up to the coil tower. Have someone crank it, and slowly start pulling the wire out a little to see if there is spark at all. If only tiny sparks (like 1/16 inch long) then you need a coil.

If no spark at all, then use a dwell meter to check if the coil is getting triggered by the igniter. If there is ANY dwell reading while cranking the engine (even just 2 degrees reading), but zero sparks, that coil is bad.

If no dwell, then probably an igniter is bad.

rekomstop209

Thanks for your input ezone, always good advice from you.

I ended up giving the car to my mechanic friend who has a really expensive code reader, so he will solve my problem.

The car actually fired up after I towed it to his place, but I still think the coil is failing despite having obvious voltage going to it if the car started. The car misfired on the freeway about a month ago on me, and I actually thought it was a sign of the fuel pump failing, but after what happened last night, and from what I found out today, it makes perfect sense that the coil has been beginning to fail for awhile now. I think the reason its lasted as long as it has is because I babied the car and hardly drove it while I was having those overheating problems due to leaking HG!

At any rate, I'll know later tonight or tomorrow what he finds and will post it so anyone with a similar problem can find this thread and know a possible solution.

ezone

Code readers and scanners can't solve problems.
They are only tools.

Scanner probably won't be a darn bit of help in this case if the coil is bad.

A bad coil usually just quits and never runs again. (At least the couple I have been able to witness just up and died. Dead. Nevermore.)

A failing igniter can do as you described though. Several stumbles/stalls before the final rest.

Neither leave any CEL codes in most cases.
So a scanner probably won't be any help.

It's all manual diagnosis.

Just a thought: An ignition switch can do as you described too. Intermittent stalling. Symptoms are different, dash would be dark when the engine stopped as if the key was shut off-- because it was, effectively, shut off.

It's all about noticing what the symptoms are when it lays down.


Should be easy to figure out if it is actually a no-start.
I hate it when I can't verify a complaint, can't diagnose a darn thing that way.

Post what the fix is!

rekomstop209

I was told there is no fuse for the CEL, otherwise people would just pull them all the time to make the light go away when they sell the car. My mechanic thinks the person I bought the car from may have deliberately removed the bulb. He said he should be able to make the CEL light up on demand with his scanner.

Still waiting for him to say if its the coil or dist that went bad.

ezone

Of course there is a fuse for it. BUT that same fuse covers the gauge cluster.

I meant the fuses that cover the PCM.
IF the PCM went dead, then it can't operate the check engine light-- and can't run the engine.

Make more sense now?



And yes, people do disable that pesky check engine light.

rekomstop209

Code popped up for the ignition switch. My mechanic says there is no power on either side of the cel fuse, and the ignition switch could be causing that as well as lack of proper spark, so I'll let him replace that because it looks a little complex for me, but if the car still has problems, ill replace the distributor myself since that's an easy swap.

ezone

Don't let him kid you. There is no code for that.

rekomstop209

Okay, well what do u think is most likely the problem? Like I mentioned before, the car did start yesterday after I pulled the D cap and tested the terminals. But I know doing that couldn't have possibly fixed the problem, there is definitely something failing sometimes, and working other times. I honestly think I should just change the distributor first...

I'm just curious about that cel. Do u think there is any merit in what the mechanic said about a faulty ignition switch causing the cel to not light up?

ezone

I didn't say it wasn't the problem, I just said that there is no code for it.
A scantool doesn't hand you answers like that one.


Accurate diagnosis can be far cheaper than firing the parts cannon. Especially when the cannon is loaded with cheapo parts from "thrifty" parts stores that are open on Sunday. I've seen cases where multiple (cheapo reman) distributors were needed before the car could run right. Then it's a crapshoot as to just how long it could possibly last.

Yes. Maybe. Depends on the symptoms noted. It IS a fairly common problem area.
You noticed the CEL didn't light up......What about the REST of the idiot lights on the dash?

If the only symptom you could discern is that the car died, that does nothing to help me narrow down a likely cause. There may be a hundred reasons for a car to die, each may have its own particular set of observable characteristics or symptoms.
You said there was no spark, so I went with what you said. Bunch of possibilities just in that alone. Couple of fairly common/likely ones, but many more things are possible.
But I'm not there to do any actual testing.
I might have noticed other signs and went a completely different direction, based on what I observed.

If there is no 12v power to the ignition coil, do YOU think it would make any spark? Would that mean the coil is bad?
Did you test that?



See what happens after the switch gets replaced. Go from there.

HTH

rekomstop209

Well I'm waiting on a 3rd opinion from another mechanic who specializes in hondas.

The 3 times the car lost power, I did not notice any dimming of the dash lights, head lights, or dvd player (I later found out the dvd player is NOT wired to the ignition switch).

When I turn the key all the way, all the dash lights come on accept for the CEL/MIL. It never comes on, not even for 2 seconds.
But the car is running again, so I'm assuming that eliminates the PCM as the cause, correct me if I'm mistaken.

I know the car is not fixed, but the fact that it's running again prohibits a dwell test.

I think we can safely say the coil is not bad if the car is running, going off of what you said about coils tending to fail one time, instead of intermittently.

So I guess that leaves with me with the ignitor or the ignition switch.
I'm really trying to learn exactly how the distributor works, and the sequence in which each individual part comes into play and sends electricity to the next part.

From what I can tell, power flows from the ignition switch to the dist, I know the coil is the last component to receive spark and it sends spark to the cap.

So power is flowing into the dist, does it go to the ignitor first or the ICM? Or am totally wrong and just confusing you and myself?

I can understand logically why replacing the switch first seems best, as it is the first part in the sequence, but I'd really like to know each individual part of the ignition and the sequence they receive power in.

ezone

Um, why? Is there still a problem with it?

Alternator would have to quit to do that. Run the battery down while driving.
True assumption. Probably has the bulb burned out, removed, or disabled.
A) What makes you say it's not fixed? Is it STILL dying?
B) It runs. Dwell test WAS ONLY to see if the coil was getting triggered and ONLY if there was zero spark. It runs now, it is getting triggered now.

True. For now.
If it is original, it might be just a matter of time though.

Coil doesn't receive spark, it generates the spark.
It is a HV transformer.

In general:
3 signal generators inside (position sensors, usually magnetic reluctance type.)
All send signals to the PCM.
PCM decides when spark is needed.
PCM triggers the igniter.
Igniter triggers the coil.
Coil steps up the 12v pulses to 25-30,000 volts when triggered.
Distributor rotor and cap send the sparks to the correct cylinder.


A bit, yes.
If the ignition switch is bad, it will act as if someone shut the key off. Because, effectively, that is exactly what happens when the switch contacts can't conduct electricity.

Same as a bad light switch on the wall of the apartment.
No worky worky.


Study some wiring diagrams.

rekomstop209

I just want another expert opinion as to what may have caused the car to die initially, I would rather fix the problem now before it happens again.

The car has not died again since it restarted yesterday evening, although it hasn't been driven, just started and idled. I'm afraid to drive it because I live in a large city with heavy traffic and big intersections, and my instinct is telling me it will die again and who knows when and where that will happen. I refuse to believe that tinkering around inside the dizzy has somehow solved the problem for good.

Lol, will do.



The more and more I read and learn, the more I think its the ignitor.

rekomstop209

Maybe tomorrow, I'll drive the car up and down the street for awhile to see if I can get it to die again.

ezone

Unless it actually dies for him AND it gets diagnosed at that moment, the best you could hope for is an opinion.

You don't have a problem yet. Drive that sucker around the block several times. Keep within pushing distance (or dragging) until you feel safe. LOL


You KNOW it isn't going to quit until you are depending on it.You got paranoid. Maybe the problem was never in there to begin with.

I guess time and miles will tell....

rekomstop209

Based on a detailed description of the syptoms, the 3rd mechanic says its either the main relay or the ignitor. So he's hooking me up with an oem honda dist at wholesale for $230.

I just don't have the time to troubleshoot the car for several days, and don't want to pay someone else to do it so I'll just replace the dist. I work in politics so you can imagine my life is extremely busy right now.

rekomstop209

I put a Richport dizzy in and I gotta say, the car sounds and seems like its running better than the day I bought it.

Now, to determine the cause of lack of power going to the CEL fuse...smog is coming up in a couple months so I have to figure it out.

ezone

Nice.
It isn't a fuse.
Pull the cluster out and check the light bulb.

rekomstop209

Done. Bulb was there, it was burned out. Replaced it, d/c'd negative battery cable to clear ecu codes. Light is working correctly now.

Now I've discovered I'm leaking oil through between the valve cover and head, right next to the timing cover...its a brand new gasket...no time to pull that this afternoon tho.

rekomstop209

Well my problems aren't over...

On the way home from work, I noticed my car took forever to shift into overdrive on the freeway, (like 30-40 seconds). It finally went though, but then, when I got off the freeway and drove 1 mile through the city, CEL pops up.

I'll pull the code(s) tomorrow.
Think I'll flush the tranny too, the LAST thing I need is a failing tranny.

ezone

When it rains, it pours.

rekomstop209

Hey ezone, Im preemptively preparing to replace the cat because the code has popped up twice since july...

I live in California so we have three way cats out here, and I was looking through the service manual, and I can't tell if I have 2 seperate cats or one...I have the D16Y8, I know there is a cat under the car before the muffler, but I see there are these other cats attached directly to the exhaust manifold and I was wondering if you knew if I had both on my car?

I would remove the heat shield to see, but I don't have any tools with me right now.

ezone

The factory only put one cat on the car.

rekomstop209

Then why do they make 2 different style cats for the same car, can I use either? Is the cat on the exhaust manifold more useful in some way? Or is just different based on chassis code or something?

ezone

LX has it in the manifold, EX has it under the car.
No idea why, that's just how they decided to make it.
(EX has more of a "4 into 2 header" than a 4/1 manifold?)

Parts catalogs will show this.
EDIT: I'm thinking of 7th gen here.
EDIT #2 Nevermind the edit above....See below.


LOL

ezone

99 EX manifold




and 99 LX manifold, contains the cat.

rekomstop209

Lol, your help is much appreciated!! You really are a jedi.

Oh and does that mean I can put an aftermarket header on it? do you know if thats legal in CA?

ezone

I'm nowhere near Cal., and I don't have to deal with any emissions testing at all, where I live.

Check your regs, I think anything you modify (pre-cat) MUST have the CARB seal of approval and be certified for on-road use there.

If you wanted to hang a "cat back" exhaust I think that's fine because you aren't modifying the emissions cleaning parts of the exhaust. Again, check your Taxifornia regs.

rekomstop209

Code PO420

Cat is clogged.