dylankjustice

Before I go too far, I want to mention that my check engine light does not come on, nor will it come on during the 2 sec it should after turn of key. I dont know if it is related or not....


Ok, I bought a 99 Honda civic ex. The car did not run when I bought it. It was thought to be a timing belt issue by the previous owner. soo, I replaced the timing belt.. Car did not start after replacement. After double and triple checking TDC, I checked for spark... It seemed to me that spark was not steady.. so I went to check the coil by ohming it out.. It was good, Then took in the ICM had it tested.. it was good.. the only other thing at the time I could think of was the other 2 components in the the distributor or the Crankshaft Positions sensor.. Soo.. A buddy of mine came over while I was gone to run a code reader on it.. He tells me it started pulling up the positions sensor... so naturally when I got back I replaced the sensor.. Now.. after that. The car still did not start.. it still just cranks and cranks with nearly no sign of starting. No backfire, nothing.. After that, we replaced the ECU.. still wont start.. At this point im a little pissed, and now my friend is saying it could be the wiring to the CPS that is throwing the code.. So before i went and checking all that crap.. I got a code reader myself. I am not pulling up any codes what so ever... What do I do next? anyone?

dylankjustice

oh yeah.. I forgot to mention.. Main relay is good.. fuel is good.. and Tried starting fluid in intake and still no luck.

ezone

Compression
Fuel
Spark
In the correct amounts, at the correct times.
Which is missing or wrong?

You seem to have some spark, that COULD be "iffy".
Does it have fuel pressure? Injector pulse?
Is the gas too old to burn, smells like varnish?

Is it flooded? Are the sparkplugs wet or dry?


The lack of CEL bothers me: Is the bulb just bad, or is the PCM not getting powered up by the main relay?
I would probably start with a wiring diagram, and attempt to activate the CEL from the wire harness at the PCM connector.
The answer to this would determine the next checks.


Just ideas, do with them what you will.

dylankjustice

Compression is good I have a range from 160-180 in all 4
Fuel in not old and still good..
Spark appears to be steady and full
gas is a month or two old
not flooded..

No CEL bothers me as well. It is rare for the bulb to go bad..The main relay is good.. but it doesnt say much for the PCM.. would it not throw a code if this was an issue? Also.. Where is the PCM?

ezone

But then is it injecting any fuel at all?

Quick-n-dirty check: I would grab a spray can of almost anything flammable (carb and throttle cleaner) and give it a shot or two down the throttle body while someone is cranking it. If it tries to fire on this, you know you are missing fuel from the equation.


Ordinary bulb, eventually they all fail. Yes, possible. Easily tested or inspected, with a bit of work.

Both the fuel pump AND the PCM are powered up (independently of each other) by the main relay, are both sides of the relay supplying B+ on their respective wires when activated?

Other important fuses for the PGMFI system good?
Engine compartment box: #44, 47
Dash fuse box #13, 15, 25, 31


Not necessarily. Does an insane person know they are insane?

PCM is old enough to be a good possibility though. A thorough inspection of all powers and grounds should be in order before pulling the trigger on that.

Behind the R.F. kick panel.


HTH

dylankjustice

I have tried spraying into the throttle body.. but no sign of fire.. Im thinking its a wiring issue somewhere now.. someone has tried to install a cd player in it and im not sure they knew what they were doing... I just need to get a hold of a wiring diagram for that car.. or some kind of idea where to check first.

ezone

Library.
Many have access to Alldata or Mitchell online.

Fuse 47 (memory backup) in the engine compartment is about the only common link between the radio and the PGMFI. The engine would still run just fine without that fuse.

It would be a real stretch to think that JUST a stereo hacked into the dash by itself would hurt the engine controls. But some kids do the darndest things.


Test, don't guess.

rekomstop209

Here is a link so you can download a service manual for your car. It will be a very long PDF file and you will have to skim through it quite a bit, but it contains every wiring diagram for your car.

http://www.shweet.org/Manuals/manuals.shtml

The manual you want is Civic 1996-2000 EJ6, EJ7, EJ8, EM1 Service Manual, you can dl it via torrent client, or direct dl.

ezone

I just got your name, LOL.

rekomstop209

LOL, nice ezone.

and the 209 is an area code reference. Want to come look at my beautiful car that overheats if you're close by lol?

ezone

Would cost you about 4 weeks worth of my regular wages, meals, lodging, and about 30 tanks of gas for the Hog. LOL

rekomstop209

Lol forget that! I'll just prepare to fork over $1300 or so for the HG job that I'll find out if I need on Tuesday.

dylankjustice

Ok.. Im still having issues getting the car started.. As I mentioned before, the check engine light (MIL) does not come on for the 2 sec when key is turned.. I thought this could be related to the issue of the car not starting. Ignition has been ruled out at this point.. Either way, I began a diagnostic starting at the ECU/PCM connector B (25p) terminals 1 and 9.. I checked voltage to ground and I do show battery voltage individually. Also I ran a check on the relay just to make sure it was working properly and it is good. I did notice i was missing voltage to the #2 sts terminal (7.5 fuse good).. I jumped straight from batt and didnt *notice a difference .. My next step was to check voltage to ground at the icu/pcm c (31p) connector terminals 19 (vcc1) and 28 (vcc2) on 19 I dont read any voltage.. On 28 I did read 4v at one point but unable to read it again.. I have double an triple checked.. I am showing something in the mV range but nothing significant.. I am lost
at this point.. Someone help.. What is my next step to get this damn bulb lit to eliminate it from the starting problem.. An no I have not checked the bulb yet.. It seem a little difficult to get to.

ezone

Why not?


Ok.
CEL bulb gets power on one side from the meter fuse.
PCM grounds the grn/orn wire at terminal (A18 if I picked the correct car, look up your own car in a wiring diagram)...Find that wire.
So unplug the PCM connectors and ground that wire, turn the key on and the CEL should be lit.

HTH

dylankjustice

Ahh ok.. So, the check engine light has one end connected to a hot and the other end runs to the PCM to allow it to switch the ground in case of an engine malfunction as well as during the 2 sec period after key turn. So what your saying is look my diagram up to determine which lead is running to the PCM from the light.. Once located, ground it, key power, and light should come on? I will try this.. Now, if light doesn't come on, I would assume the fused end to power is bad.. Is that correct? And if the light does come on, that would indicate the PCM is not grounding it. What would be the next step I need to take in order to find out the root of the problem in that scenario?

ezone

Wow. You're asking for a total crash course in electrical theory and practical application of such. I can't start at square one, and I can't easily explain how I think on this stuff. It doesn't always sound logical to someone that isn't already experienced in low voltage DC, and my thinking probably isn't "according to the book".

Yes.
Yes.
No. You are only thinking of one out of a few other possibilities.

I.E. What is the bulb is no good? What about a wiring problem?
When you hear hoofbeats, don't go looking for a Zebra.

HINT: The METER fuse covers more items than the gauges. If the fuse is blown, there should be other obvious problems in the gauges and idiot lights, the Integrated Control Unit, and the interlock and shift lock (auto trans) solenoids.



Ok, now we are back on track. Right.

I'd have a complete diagram for the PGMFI system and all associated components and systems, and a voltmeter, test light, and maybe a headlight. Figure out all of the powers and grounds first, then probably go down the list of terminals and make sure each has whatever voltage or signal should be there.

At least inspecting everything the PCM needs to come to life. Then worry about the rest of the wiring.

You just lost me too. You are using numbers without a connector I.D.. There are 4 connectors on your PCM?

VCC1 is a reference voltage for sensors. It will not be 12 volts--- it will be 5 volts, and it originates within the PCM. It is also Connector "C", not just plain number 19, so call it C19 so it can make sense to me...Thx.
VCC2 is also a reference voltage (5v) for some of the sensors, same deal as above. The PCM must be alive before you will see anything on this.
You cannot worry about these until your 12v (B+) and grounds are verified.
STS is a starter signal, you cannot measure this unless you can figure out WHEN this would have some sort of signal on it. And know what to look for.



I don't know what your engine and trans are so I don't know what diagram to use in my info. I have no idea if your diagrams would be similar enough to be a direct comparison to mine.


Or find a test part (PCM) to stick in it from a car that works correctly......you'd probably need the keys from that car to fool the immobilizer too.

dylankjustice

Bingo.. The MIL (cil) lamp is burnt out.. the PCM is giving continuity to ground for approx 2 sec on key turn. Check engine light is not a factor in car not starting.. I wonder why after conformation of spark and timing the engine didn't show any kind of fire after I sprayed inside the throttle body with starting fluid. Would this be an indicator that my injectors aren't spraying fuel? or would some fuel still pass.. What do I check to see if they are operating?

ezone

Maybe this will help.....Locate in your service manual:

Engine Control Module/Powertrain Control Module Troubleshooting, for your particular car.
It starts off with checking the CEL/MIL operation, in flowchart form.

HTH

ezone

Weak spark?
Will spark jump a gap of 1/2 inch or more when measured at the end of a sparkplug wire?
Not just jump a plain sparkplug gap of 0.044", it needs to be able to throw lightning bolts through a 1/2-3/4 inch gap.

dylankjustice

ok.. Im at a point where i need help... ok the #31 fuse is shown to go to the main relay and the pcm i believe.. I did not find voltage at either side of the fuse.. on the side that runs from the devices (pcm and main relay) It is good continuity with no short to ground.. but when I put the fuse in it shows a short to ground.. so... the other side of the fuse is grounded as well as the same side of some other adjacent fuses... I checked the neutral position switch and it is working correct.. I also found the the #1 terminal which goes to the fuse block is grounded as well... but the #12 terminal is showing hot at the park or neutral position it should jump #1 and #12 giving power to the fuse box and to other components. ......is the under dash fuse box supposed to have one side of the fuses grounded? please help me...

ezone

Fuse 31 is the starter signal fuse. Do you realize what condition it takes to power up this circuit?

HINT: Look right above the fuse 31 on your diagram. Should show a box that says
"HOT WITH ______ ________ "

(Mine has the box anyway, I assume your diagram should too.)
The answer is in that box.

LMK, HTH

dylankjustice

yes.. hot when engine cranking... but I dont get battery voltage to my main relay (terminal 2) when in the 3rd (cranking position) I get about less than 1 volt on a full battery... and also i noticed it has continuity to ground reguardless if ignition is on 1st 2nd or 3rd position. What is the next step??

ezone

Find the diagrams for "power distribution", then locate the area showing circuits from the ignition switch to the fuse in question. It should show what other components share the circuits, all prior to passing through that fuse.

"Starting system" also shows where that fuse is, in relation to the rest of the starter circuits.

The starter will crank the engine when using the ignition key, right? (Wait, you got a compression test done, duh.)

That fuse should receive power whenever the starter is cranking, and only while the starter is cranking. All other times you will probably detect a ground on it, not an issue.

Not an immobilizer problem (green key light does not flash while cranking)?

Did that hellllllp?

justinwebb

I always like seeing my site for random manuals :P

nousername4me

Hi dylankjustice,
Did you ever figure out what was wrong with your civic? I have a 2000 ex with the 1.6l and it's doing pretty much what you described in the beginning of this post. I seem to have spark, injector pulse, and good fuel pressure.