coladylan

Okay my civic has neglected to start twice now. What happens is I'll be driving for a while (close to an hour), and il have to stop, and ill kill the car on accident. When I turn the key to restart, I get nothing. No tick of the starter, just silence. All my lights go dim but nothing. Normally it will start right up, and I tried killing it in the drive way and starting it and it works fine. It only is when i have been driving for a while. I checked the battery and it is fine. Usually if i wait a while the car will finally turn over again. So is it a heat issue? the gauge says it is at normal heat. The starter works great, so my only guess would be linkage to the starter? But I have no idea.

Any help on this would be great, thank you.

gordon555

Hey, I found this video on youtube that covers a similar problem for hondas. I know it is not the same year but sounds like a similar problem that you are having. This might be somewhere to start. Maby someone else might know more about this!

Good luck,

Here's the link
[autostream]http://autostream.com/ibcivicforums/?page_type=firebirdplayerthumbnail&framepage=803&t ransactionid=1333938699-9648101150&posted_by=gordon555_www.civicforums.com &youtube_video_id=viIZ8k60awY[/autostream]

coladylan

I don't think it is the fuel pressure problem. I looked up how to tell if the main relay was working or not, and it said as far as fuel pressure just turn the ignition on and listen for the 2 second sound of the fuel pump. Mine did that so fuel pressure is good. But is there any more solders on the relay that have to do with ignition?

By the way i put a clutch switch bypass and tested it and everything worked good, but It still does the no turn over deal. Both days it has done it to me after installing the switch it has been about 80 degrees all day. then usually after 15 minutes or so, it will start absolutely perfect... WHAT IS THE DEAL?????

So I have ruled out clutch switch, fuel pressure, starter and solenoid, and black and white wire on the starter.....

What is left?
THIS PROBLEM IS DRIVING ME CRAZY!

ezone

My guess:
Battery, battery cables, ground cables between body and engine. SOMEthing in the big wiring. Corrosion, rust.

Voltage drop testing under the loaded condition should find it if you can check while the problem is happening. It may even show up on a DVOM without acting up.

coladylan

okay main relay is checked off the list.

You are thinking big electrical stuff... Hmmm then I wonder if hot is just a coincidence? or for some reason the heat amplifies it?

The battery tested at full charge with a voltmeter.
It looks like cables are all good...

Will you explain more about what the voltage drop test is? and DVOM?

ezone

Main relay can't keep the starter from cranking.

Heat causes resistance to increase.

Lights dimming badly when you try to crank makes me think it will be one of two things: Either the starter is pulling all available amperage from the battery, or there are bad connections that can't allow high amperage to pass through them, and it is somewhere that affects the rest of the cars electricals
I can't tell how much "dimming" there really is. Any load can cause some amount of dimming that is noticeable. What I have pictured in my head may be nothing like what the car is actually doing.

How many amps are being pulled from the battery when the lights dim, when you try to crank the starter?
You will need a huge ammeter for this, or a simple inductive gauge would suffice, like this:

Try to find one with a bit higher capacity, a starter draws more current than an alternator.


This one just slips over a cable, you hold it in your hand. Not laboratory accurate, but that's close enough to tell if the starter is drawing 100 amps or 300+ amps.
I have an old one from Sears.

------------------------------------------
Staring at the cables is not a valid test.
Looking "OK" is not proof.

Google: voltage drop test, then add the word "starter" to it and search again.

http://www.aa1car.com/library/voltage_drop_testing.htm

http://www.excelauto.com/online/Tech.d/strvdt.html

DVOM = Digital Volt Ohm Meter


HTH

coladylan

I will look into these tests...

As far as the lights dimming, All i notice is the radio lights coming on and off, I will have to try with my headlights on and see if they dim considerably.

ezone

Oh. I thought you meant like dome lights, dash lights, or headlights.

I think the radio is supposed to shut off during cranking.

That changes my thought process a little bit now.

coladylan

I was reading around the web and was wondering if installing an aftermarket head unit make a problem? Its all hooked up off the factory wires, but I read the stock head unit controls some alarm systems. Would a 97 Civic Hatch (CX) have an alarm on the head unit that would immobilize the car?

ezone

My fast answer is that it doesn't matter.
If it had anything to do with this problem, you would have never been able to drive it around in the first place.
BUT, if it is equipped with a security setup, that doesn't mean some part of it isn't causing your problem.

I don't have a really clear understanding of what exactly the symptoms are. I am having a difficult time assessing what the car does or doesn't do.......besides not start: You say it didn't crank, but I can't tell if the solenoid went KLUNK and there is no starter load on the electricals, or it there IS a heavy load when it went klunk. Or if it didn't klunk at all.

YOU (as the driver or the broken car) may notice that the car doesn't start, but when I turn the key I am already analyzing dozens of necessary processes that all must occur in order for the desired result to happen. By the time *I* see it doesn't start, I have already narrowed the systems down to where a few tests will give me a solid answer, with an absolute minimum of wasted time and effort. (Many people use the terms crank, turn over, and start, completely wrong. As a technical person, I can't always rely on these terms coming out of someone elses mouth as being valid for diagnosis purposes.)
You say "no crank", and what I have pictured has absolutely nothing to do with the PGMFI main relay or fuel pressure.


Again: An understanding, and some rather simple testing would lead to a correct answer in short order, as long as the testing can be done DURING the time it won't crank.

There are only 2 wires on the starter to test, and it grounds through the metal case.
3 circuits total at the starter.
One of them isn't quite right, preventing proper operation.
YOU have to figure out which one of the three is wrong, so you can chase the correct direction. Once you know which one, this should get simpler.


The security system would have been only installed as an accessory on that car (from what I gathered reading a wiring diagram, it was not factory equipped with one), it would have a starter cutout relay as part of the security system--if it was installed.
It appears that the control unit part of it would have been cradled in the top of the original radio.
I guess some aftermarket installers would rip the security unit out thinking it was part of the radio and toss it out.
Maybe it stayed connected and shoved down behind the new radio.

I wasn't in a Honda dealer at the time these cars were new, so I never installed any. I would have to see the wiring and check against a diagram myself, to go much further.


HTH

coladylan

Okay I have not been able to locate any aftermarket alarm, so that is out of the question



The symptoms are: For some reason, when it gets hot outside (maybe a coincidence but sure seems to be the instigator) the car will not crank. I turn the key and all the dash lights come on go back off as they should, and the radio lights are on. When I turn the key to start, there is no noise, only a flash of the radio (which I'm pretty sure is normal) There is no noise from the starter, no click or anything. Just silence.



But then, after I have opened the hood, and the door and try to find something wrong (for about 15 min) it will start up perfectly as it should, like nothing was ever wrong.

ezone

The factory accessory unit would look like it belongs, wiring looks like it was factory installed. They look nothing like aftermarket alarms.




Basic testing, while it is acting up.
Is 12v reaching the solenoid from the ignition switch on the small wire, when it acts up?

If the problem can be duplicated fairly easily, it can be diagnosed.