lgs 98dx

98 Civic DX has problem that no one has been able to diagnose, not even the Honda dealer.
Problems started 9 months ago when it died for no reason, but then immediately restarted without issue.

Then 2 weeks later did it again and set a code that the IAC valve was bad
Replaced the IAC valve and it ran fine for 6 weeks

Then when driving it the check engine light would flash very quick, the engine did like a quick hiccup, but no code is ever set

It does it intermittantly with no apparent pattern and doesn't matter if it is just started up or driven for 100 miles.

Next I let our Honda mechanic use it as his daily driver for 8 weeks, but he was unable to determine what was wrong, although he suspected ignition issues because it is like flipping a light switch on & off.
He did replace the ignition switch (which was replaced several years earlier under a safety recall).
I picked the car up the same day in September

Car ran fine for 2 days then same problem occurred 5 times in 15 miles on the freeway

In October I replaced distributor cap & rotor, but didn't help

In November I replaced distributor sub assembly, ignitor & coil (all new OEM Honda parts) but the same problem occurred 3 times the next day

Then it ran fine for 6 weeks

The next issue which started about 1 1/2 months ago, it would stall with check engine light on for a few seconds and then engine would come right back like nothing was wrong

It still does the hiccup thing occasionally

Now the latest twice it completely dies and does not want to restart right away.

It did this again this evening
After the 3rd time of trying to restart it, I noticed that right after turning the ignition switch on the Fuel Pump did NOT come on

So 4 more cycles turning the key on the off and finally the fuel pump came on like normal (for about 2 seconds until pressure is up I assume) and the engine started right up and ran fine.

This is driving me crazy!
Any suggestions would be appreciated
Thanks

Newfiedan

Sounds to me like a faulty fuel pump relay or loose connection at the base of the fuse panel in the engine bay. I would start there, sometimes loose connections can cause intermittent faults, a flashing cel means that something is majorly wrong, it should have stored a cel unless it lost total battery power. I would also check and clean the engine grounds, these can cause all kinds of weird issues, if you know how to use an ohmeter check the resistance from the engine to the negative terminal on the battery if its any higher than 1 ohm I would replace the engine ground straps. Now before you go disassembling anything here are a few easy checks.

1) Check and make sure that they 2 screws in the engine bay fuse panel that hold down the metal plates are tight they are philips head screws.
2) Make sure that the battery terminals are really tight and clean of all corrosion, same for the battery terminals.
3) Inspect all wiring going from the engine to the fuse panel and firewall see if any of the grommets or loom is damaged, if so note where and let me know.

Check and verify those for me then let me know what you find and we can go from there.

lgs 98dx

1) The 2 screws holding down the metal plates with 2 larger wires are tight.
Also the 4 other screws in the fuse panel are tight too
2) Both battery terminals and tight & free of corrosion
3) Did not see any issues with wiring from engine to fuse panel.

Attached is a picture of the panel.

Let me know what next
Thanks

lgs 98dx

More Info:
Today it did the hiccup thing and I noticed that there was a click sound coming from the right kick panel at the same time the check engine light flashed

The check engine light does not stay on, other than the one time months ago when it actually set a code which I recall was P0505 = IAC valve

Newfiedan

If you heard a click from that side then that is the main realy. The main relay is under the dash on the passenger side. it is bolted to the inside of the right fender wall above the PCM and roughly to the right of the glove box. you should be able to remove the glove box stays and drop the glove box down to get to the relay, that is the source of all your problems if you heard that clicking. FYI the fuse in the engine bay we are looking for is fuse 44, but if the car is working then thats ok. When you locate the relay check the wiring to it as best you can see if any of the terminals are loose on it this can also cause the clicking you spoke of earlier. procedure to get at it is in this link; http://techauto.awardspace.com/civicrelay.html this should have been a prime suspect with the problems you described, if your honda dealer did not diagnose or attempt to even see if this rectified the problem they are idiots. FYI there are three main relay fuses -- 44, 31, and 13, if the changing of the main relay does not correct the problem then we are looking at a grounding issue. Has there been any aftermarket wiring done to the car like starters, alrams, etc?

lgs 98dx

It died again today on the way to get the relay.
The main relay was replaced this afternoon.
You were correct it was located to the right side of the glove box attached to the sheet metal. Did have to remove two pieces of plastic trim between the door & dash to get at the 10mm bolt holding the relay in place.

About 50 miles since the swap and no issues yet.
Now just wait & see if the problem reoccurs. I certain hope not.

I will keep you posted.

Thanks again for the help.

lgs 98dx

Update
1 week & 300+ miles with no issues

willis2u

Is there any way to test or check "the main relay" prior to purchasing another one? What is it's purpose?

Newfiedan

yes there is a way to test it, it supplies power to the fuel pump and other things, if it dies then you pretty much lose all power just like the op posted to start with. You will have to remove it to test it thorughly, but for an easy way test is to simply hit the dash on that side see if it cuts out (you will hear it click if its faulty) or if that does not work find some nice bumps to drive over see if the car dies on you. You will hear that tell tale clicking if its weak.

Newfiedan

Good to hear, I hope this is the permanent fix you needed, if it ends up being that then please go back to the honda dealer and tell the tech what you found so that he can feel like an idiot and inform him on what to be looking for in the future.

willis2u

....reason I'm asking is because I experienced something the other day along the lines I guess of "hiccup(s)". Driving along all of a sudden (like turning off a light switch) everything shuts off! A few seconds later everything comes back on including the engine running. I look at the clock on the am/fm radio and it still has the correct time. Usually when power is lost, the clock time goes to 12:00, right? So I'm wondering how is that possible? What could have happened?

Newfiedan

1 of 2 things happened either your ignition switch is faulty (try bumping the steering column in park see if you can recreate the hiccup) or try smacking the passenger side right above the glovebox area with your hand see if that recreates it. If bumping the column does it then its the ign switch, there was a recall on them for this issue a while back and it still applies if yours never got done. If bumping the glove box area does it then its the main relay that is causing it. A weak relay will lose contact when bumped hard i try to do it just above the furtherest part of the glove box from the driver.

lgs 98dx

Any suggestions what to do with my original distributor sub assembly, ignitor & coil (all OEM Honda parts), given they were not faulty?
Thanks

Newfiedan

keep them, spare parts are always good to have around, and if you go to sell it then sell with parts and ask for a little more. I still have the original coil, and ign parts for the civic that were replaced with msd parts.

willis2u

Is it normal for the "AC" light to come on when you select "Defrost"?

Newfiedan

yes and here is why;
the a/c light comes on because when you turn on the defrost they want the air to flow over the evaporator drying the air out then over the heater core to make for hot dry air which in turn will clean the window off more effectively. You can turn it off by hitting the a/c button again on the 98 not 100% sure on the 99 as it has different climate controls than the 98. Acura's do this as well my buddies rsx-s does it and we turned it off with a trick I picked up from the rsx forums.

willis2u

Here's one that has me puzzled. I live in a county that requires passing an emissions test (a.k.a., E-Check). If the check engine light is on they won't even do the emissions test. The check engine light was on. The code was PO420. Reset it and went straight to have an "E-Check". It passed with no indication of any emissions problems. The check engine light came back on later, and is still on. How is that possible? Seems if there was or is an actual emissions problem it should have showed up on the "E- Check". Any ideas?

Newfiedan

if you got code 0420 then you have a crack in the exhaust manifold right around where the 02 sensor is, remove the heat sheild and you will see it, very common on the civics as well. Either get it rewelded (its cast so it does not really weld that well) fill it with jb weld (usually does not last that long) or replace it. The exhaust manifold and cat are a 1 peice unit on the car so its costly to replace it.

lgs 98dx

Just over 400 miles all was well until today

Check engine light came on coming off the freeway and engine just bogged down especially in lower gears all the way home (about 5 miles)

Checked and Code set was P0505, Idle Control System Malfunction.

This is the same code it set last summer. The IAC valve has already been replaced, although NAPA part not OEM Honda

Erased the code and it did not come back, but haven't driven it on road yet

Also, my code reader has basic emissions readings (green, yellow & red lights)
Since it set the code, the emissions light is now yellow, usually is green
Still yellow after erasing the code

Is any of this related to earlier problem with fuel pump relay?

Any suggestions of what to do next would be appreciated.
Thanks

lgs 98dx

Today's Update
Drove 50 miles without any issues
Code Tool's emisison light now back to green

Newfiedan

If you had code 0420 and did nothing to rememdy it then that is why your emissions are off. Other than that I got no advice for you at this time.

willis2u

The receipt for the "main relay" refers to it as an "accy rel". What would an accessory relay have to do with car running?

TOPGUNN8309

ok start with this. start the vehicle and hold the rpm's at 3000 until your radiator fan comes on.once the fan comes on let it idle and make sure you have no load on the engine ie. head lights, blower motor, rear defoger ect. your idle should be between 650-750 rpm without a load. If it's between 650-750 you have an interminttent problem. Check for any vacuum leaks and make sure your throttle body plate is closing all the way. If the idle is 550 rpm's or less disconnect your iac plug , if your rpm doesn't increase you have a bad iac motor and need to replace it. If it does increase you need to adjust your base idle to 650- 750. Good luck and I hope this helps.

98hndacivic

why is my 98 honda civic hx engine light flashing