Crovax

Can anyone point me in the direction of some type of diagram or model for the D17 block? Basically I am looking for the passages; where they go, what they are, etc.

While I had my head off, I plugged the holes on the block so that I could clean up some stuff without getting gunk down in the passages. Problem is, I accidentally got a piece of rag shoved too deep and I cannot get it out. Furthermore, it looks like the passage continues further than what I had anticipated, and the rag got shoved too far in to see. Here are some pictures to help demonstrate:




So the hole that's jammed is next to the #9 bolt hole in the second picture. It's not the actual head bolt hole, but the smaller hole passage that is directly adjacent; you can kind of see it in the first picture. On the head, the passage doesn't go anywhere, but I would like to find out where it goes into the block so I can attempt to remove the rag. It looks like it should have dropped into the oil pan, but I took it off and could not find the rag. I don't want to destroy my engine!

Does a diagram like that exist for the block? Or does anyone know where that passage goes by chance?

edit: It might be misleading with the pictures, but to be clear the hole that is jammed is on the block, not the head. The picture of the head is just to have a reference to the particular bolt hole that is adjacent to the jammed hole.

ezone

Click to make pic huge:







How much rag did you poke into the hole?
The small hole, rearward of the rear center bolt hole, I think you'll find that is the oil feed passage to the cylinder head. I think you poked the rag into an oil gallery.

Crovax

It's a small strip of shop rag, maybe 1/2" to 3/4" in length and the diameter of that small hole. Do you think I can get to that passage from inside the oil pan? I still have it off at the moment.

Not sure if you can see that passage on the head side, but it actually runs right into the bolt hole in a dome shape so to speak. So I don't think it goes anywhere on the head (unless it serves to oil the bolt?), but it definitely goes deep into the block.

Thanks!

ezone

The oil passage provides oil to the camshaft and valvetrain. It's rather important if you want the engine to run longer than 15 seconds.

No, you won't see it from the pan. The passage originates at the oil filter, either directly or indirectly (I don't have a diagram of the oil gallery drillings). I'd probably remove the oil filter and blow compressed air through the center tube, attempt to force the piece of rag out that way. (Make sure to have a witness to let you know if it actually does come out)

Boy, I hope it's still stuck in the straight vertical passage and you didn't get it caught in a corner or cross drilling or get it packed so tight it can't come out.

If you ever have to do the job again in the future, don't repeat this accident!

HTH

Crovax

Yeah it looks like it's connected to the filter passage. I will hit it with some air when I get home, hopefully that works.

If it doesn't come out that way, do you have any suggestions? Obviously it cannot stay in there.

ezone

On second thought....I might get everything clear enough to use the starter (manually controlled), that would use oil pressure to force it up the passage. Will make a hell of a mess though. Still need a witness or a catcher to make sure the offender actually comes out.


Reinstall oil pan and dump some oil in it first

Crovax

Would the head need to be off to do that?

ezone

Yes, I wouldn't want the piece of rag to disappear into the head passages somewhere. You still have the head off of the block, yes?

Timing belt is completely removed, yes?

Crovax

Actually no...

I put the head back on because the rag dropped so deep down the hole that it seemed impossible to get the rag out the same way it went in (I was also pretty confident I could get it out through the oil pan). Based on some not-so-descript diagrams I was able to find today, it looks like it dropped down into the pistons or crank case or somewhere. It seems like that's the only place for it to go, if not into the oil pan. It definitely dropped further down than where the filter goes, so I don't think it will come back up that way with an air blast (I've also tried vacuum on the hole on top, no good).

I do have another D17 block in my garage, do you think it's worth the trouble trying to find the rag if I can swap blocks? I've never swapped the block, just the head, but I'm confident I can do it if I have to (I've been anticipating the day).

ezone

iStudy the oil galleries (pressurized oil feeds or pressurized lubrication system) if possible... Those are the passages drilled in the block that carry pressurized oil from the pump to the filter, and from the filter to all of the crank bearings, and up through that little hole to the head to supply oil to all of the camshaft journals and the valvetrain.

I didn't see a handy pic of a D17 lubrication system diagram on google, but you can search the same for many other engines and probably get an idea of how a pressurized lube system is designed and constructed in general. It's not a single tubelike passage that snakes all around the engine, it's multiple drillings with multiple passages that look kinda like a tree branch with lots of other branches attached to it





If you poked the rag deep enough to hit a corner (more like a "T" in the passages, roughly the same depth as where the oil filter is mounted) it may be free to move elsewhere and get stuck in some other passage in the main bearing galleries.....which would eventually starve a rod or main bearing of lubrication (leading to catastrophic failure).



If you can't get this chunk of rag out of your engine and you have another block handy, you may need it.
Wait, WHY do you have a block laying around? Is it any good?



If you have time and energy, you could strip the engine block and go on a discovery mission, see if you can figure out how to get the rag chunk out.

Crovax

I bought a D17a2 from a guy at work a few years back for a killer deal. It's got about 100k, it fits my car, and he sold it to me for $250 (basically the cost of the head alone) so I snatched it up.

Anyway, what I meant was that the rag is on the clean oil side so I assume it's on its way to the moving components. In other words, I don't think I'll be able to force on the oil pump to shoot the rag into my filter; it's "downstream" of the filter so I'm not sure where the rag would go if I pressurized the oil (into bad places I imagine).

I tried tracing the passage on the naked block, but I can't find an outlet without hitting a dead end (probing with a wire). I can't get a light deep enough in there either. I was thinking of pouring oil down there and seeing where it comes out, but I'm not sure if it's worth the effort to even try.

I'm thinking I may just have to gut the motor, assemble the head onto the other block, and reinstall. I don't particularly want to tackle that at the moment, but I dislike the idea of starting that engine as-is even more.

ezone

Right.

pump --> filter --> bearings and stuff

If you spin it up to get the oil pump pumping, the rag piece won't go to the filter, but it may go just about anywhere else in the oiling system (if it doesn't go up and out the passage you poked it into).
Once it finds a place to get stuck it will restrict oil flow to whatever component is downstream of the blockage.


Engine, killer deal cheap. Why did he get rid if it? You sure it's good?

Crovax

Yeah no doubt, so I will go ahead with the motor swap probably this weekend. Should be fun, just rough on the back. zzz

He flips cars for fun all the time; swaps the engine, maybe drives it for a few weeks if he wants, resells it, rinse, repeat. He actually wanted to buy my car to put the engine in, but I didn't want to sell it so he sold me the engine instead. I can only imagine he was thinking of head prices when he said $250, and he even called me like a week later when he found out that motor is worth $600+ but he just laughed and said you got a hell of a deal. It will certainly come in handy now for sure, I just need to make the VTEC work.

ezone

If your car is a non-vtec, the vtec engine will run without the vtec solenoid and switch connected.

If you want to connect it later on you'd need to lay a few new wires, get the correct PCM for the A2 engine, and programming to make it recognize the immobilizer and allow it to run.

Or get a standalone controller, or a toggle switch for full 100% manual control LOL

Crovax

Haha, funny you mention that because a manual switch was my plan until I get a vafc2. I have no idea how well it will run like that (I have a 5-speed so activating the switch while shifting might be tricky), so I'm hoping to have the vafc2 very soon after it's running again. Should be interesting. @_@